The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: profgrape on June 02, 2016, 10:50:20 pm

Title: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: profgrape on June 02, 2016, 10:50:20 pm
Wert (aka Adam Whitehead) is doing a history of Earwa feature on his blog.  See below:

PDF VERSION! (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7af3IhBKbgrTmp5d3M3bXRja1U)

A History of Eärwa Part 1: The Fall of the Ark & the Cûno-Inchoroi Wars (http://thewertzone.blogspot.com/2016/06/a-history-of-earwa-part-1-fall-of-ark.html)
A History of Eärwa Part 2: The Age of Man (http://thewertzone.blogspot.ca/2016/06/a-history-of-earwa-part-2-age-of-man.html)
A History of Eärwa Part 3: The Apocalypse (http://thewertzone.blogspot.ca/2016/06/a-history-of-earwa-part-3-apocalypse.html)
A History of Eärwa Part 4: The Modern Age (http://thewertzone.blogspot.ca/2016/06/a-history-of-earwa-part-4-modern-age.html)
A History of Eärwa Part 5: The Holy War (http://thewertzone.blogspot.ca/2016/07/a-history-of-earwa-part-5-holy-war.html)
A History of Earwa Part 6: The Unification Wars (http://thewertzone.blogspot.co.uk/2017/05/a-history-of-earwa-part-6-unification.html)
A History of Earwa Part 7: The Great Ordeal (http://thewertzone.blogspot.co.uk/2017/05/a-history-of-earwa-part-7-great-ordeal.html)

Interesting where he placed Siol...

EDIT: Siol and other mansion locations came from the man himself.
EDIT: All links
EDIT: For PDF link.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Wilshire on June 02, 2016, 11:14:24 pm
Awesome, thanks for disseminating !
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: H on June 03, 2016, 12:45:56 am
Very interesting.  I was sort of right, that there was a mansion at the point where the Yimaleti's come down into the Istyuli Plains, but not right in it being Siöl. I never thought of to place Nihrimsul, so defintely an oversight on my part.

Comparing the map from Som and this one, it seems that where Kellhus meets Moe near Kyudea was indeed not a high mansion, but rather might have actually been just a bathhouse/temple adjunct to Illiseru, as I think we had speculated it might be.  (Illiseru has never been named in the books, that I could find).

Interesting also that one of the "unnamed Mansions" was so close to Cil-Aujas and at first, I thought about the source for Chanv.  It is too far West, because it is rumored to come from the headwaters of the River Sayut.  However, the idea that it was an adjunct mansion they are mining for Chanv is definitely possible.

Interesting stuff for sure.

Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Wilshire on June 03, 2016, 02:26:11 am
many things to comment on...

But this:
Cil-Aujas some two thousand miles to the south-east. [of golgotterath]
Viri was four hundred miles from where the cataclysm had taken place. [of golgotterath]
A vast circular depression (estimated at well over a hundred miles wide) had been created by the impact,

Distances. Very satisfying to me.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Madness on June 03, 2016, 03:07:45 am
From Werthead at Westeros:

Quote
Siol is located is the Northern Great Kayarsus, north of the Sea of Cerish.

Nihrimsul is located at the south-eastern tip of the Yimaleti Mountains. Scott also said this spur of the mountains was the eastern border of Aorsi.

You know where Viri, Ishoriol and Cil-Aujas are, of course.

Illiseru was located in the Betmulla Mountains. He wouldn't say if this was the same mansion as the one Moenghus was chilling in, but I got the impression it wasn't. Illiseru is really big, that one wasn't.

The other three names are not finalised and will probably change: Curunq in the Araxes Mountains, Cil-Mihmul in the Hinayati Mountains and Incissal, located near modern-day Domyot. Apparently Incissal (or whatever it ends up being called) was captured by men and is actually inhabited by the modern people of Zeum, the only such Nonman mansion to be repurposed. I didn't put these in the article as I wanted it to be as close to canon as possible.

That also confirms - since the one near Atrithau isn't on the list - that there lots of other "lesser" mansions knocking around.

Also, on population levels: tens of thousands of Nonmen were killed in Viri (not counted as one of the most populous mansions) alone during the Arkfall. The populations of the mansions in their heyday must have been absolutely immense.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Madness on June 03, 2016, 04:00:35 am
Lol - after reading that I suspect, as I mentioned to Wilshire earlier tonight, that this series will basically preview portions of the Expanded Glossary, forthcoming in TUC.

This is titled Part I and ends seguing to the "Age of Men in Eanna." Bets on Part II elucidating the Inchoroi interaction with the Halaroi of Eanna in classic, nonchalant bomb-dropping Bakker style?
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: MSJ on June 03, 2016, 06:00:41 am
Interesting also that one of the "unnamed Mansions" was so close to Cil-Aujas and at first, I thought about the source for Chanv.  It is too far East, because it is rumored to come from the headwaters of the River Sayut.  However, the idea that it was an adjunct mansion they are mining for Chanv is definitely possible.

Interesting stuff for sure.

H, one does not mine for Chanv, you simply break off a piece of a salted sorcerer. Come on now, only dead people get you high on Earwa.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: H on June 03, 2016, 10:13:42 am
H, one does not mine for Chanv, you simply break off a piece of a salted sorcerer. Come on now, only dead people get you high on Earwa.

Nah, I'm not buying that, about the sorcerers, but the dead people?  Well, yeah...I feel like the parallel between Chanv and Qirri is too deliberate.  Chanv is debased Qirri in my mind and somewhere in Jekhia is a bunch of burned mansions that they mine for it.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: MSJ on June 03, 2016, 11:15:52 am
Oh, I like that! I didn't see where you was going with it, nice!
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: H on June 03, 2016, 12:15:10 pm
Oh, I like that! I didn't see where you was going with it, nice!

I definitely could have been clearer...

Also, on the "new" map, I was surprised by a high Mansion in Zeüm.  What a coincidence (i.e. not a coincidence at all) that it is near present-day Domyot, the capital of Zeüm.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Madness on June 03, 2016, 12:28:41 pm
Did you read my quoted comments by Wertzone at Westeros above, H?

Quote
Apparently Incissal (or whatever it ends up being called) was captured by men and is actually inhabited by the modern people of Zeum, the only such Nonman mansion to be repurposed. I didn't put these in the article as I wanted it to be as close to canon as possible.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: H on June 03, 2016, 12:37:30 pm
Did you read my quoted comments by Wertzone at Westeros above, H?

Quote
Apparently Incissal (or whatever it ends up being called) was captured by men and is actually inhabited by the modern people of Zeum, the only such Nonman mansion to be repurposed. I didn't put these in the article as I wanted it to be as close to canon as possible.

I kind of missed it, haha.

That is pretty interesting.  At least, as it appears on the map, Domyot is on the river and "Incissal" is in the hills north of it.  Still pretty interesting that they would live in it now, suggesting perhaps that for some reason, Incissal did not become a topoi, which is pretty fascinating when I think of it.  Virri seems to have avoided that too, as did Ishterebinth.  So, it seems that those of Cil-Aujas were really just especially jerks.

EDIT: Or, that Cil-Aujas was the only ones who had the audacity to do their dirty work in the High Mansion itself.  Others could have had larders in other places to diffuse the suffering?
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Wilshire on June 03, 2016, 12:47:00 pm
Specifically Virri you'd think would not be a topos. As for the other's, I don't know.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: profgrape on June 03, 2016, 01:47:10 pm
Might get cleared up in the next installment.  But given Siol's location, it seems likely to have been the first to fall after the Breaking of the Gates.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Bolivar on June 03, 2016, 02:05:43 pm
Mostly similar to the encyclopedia entry but it's always great to read again.

This is titled Part I and ends seguing to the "Age of Men in Eanna." Bets on Part II elucidating the Inchoroi interaction with the Halaroi of Eanna in classic, nonchalant bomb-dropping Bakker style?

I wouldn't be surprised given he dropped the Tusk bomb on Pat's blog, might as well unveil the rest about the Breaking of the Gates on Wert's. I kinda hope he won't though. I liked how the account of the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars came after TTT confirms that the Inchoroi are irrevocably damned aliens seeking to close off the outside. I feel like you gotta time these encyclopedia bits after they've been given some significance in the main story.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Aural on June 04, 2016, 05:00:59 am
Very nice. Just to be clear, this is entirely written by Wert from previous books and TGO, right? Only Bakker gave him some info about the locations and names of the Mansions?
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Madness on June 04, 2016, 11:52:33 am
I wouldn't be surprised given he dropped the Tusk bomb on Pat's blog, might as well unveil the rest about the Breaking of the Gates on Wert's. I kinda hope he won't though. I liked how the account of the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars came after TTT confirms that the Inchoroi are irrevocably damned aliens seeking to close off the outside. I feel like you gotta time these encyclopedia bits after they've been given some significance in the main story.

Lol - indeed. We'll see, I guess. There's enough information out there, I think, to write a decent essay without doing something like that?

Very nice. Just to be clear, this is entirely written by Wert from previous books and TGO, right? Only Bakker gave him some info about the locations and names of the Mansions?

You'd have to ask Wert to clarify but I believe that to be the case. I think Bakker was impressed with Wert's "maps" post.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Davias on June 06, 2016, 07:26:11 pm
A very nice summary from wert. It is a simple but effective way to hype me senseless for the upcoming book!
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Madness on June 06, 2016, 11:42:20 pm
Yeah, I'm looking forward to Part II, Davias.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Madness on June 15, 2016, 03:03:36 pm
Part II (http://thewertzone.blogspot.ca/2016/06/a-history-of-earwa-part-2-age-of-man.html)
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Wilshire on June 16, 2016, 01:44:21 am
Great to see reference to the rape of Omindalea
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: themerchant on June 16, 2016, 09:35:15 am
Yeah Wert has done a great job with these. It must be quite challenging to get it right. I doubt i could do it. :)
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Madness on June 16, 2016, 12:21:10 pm
Over on TPB he's expressing some hesitancy with the Apocalypse.

Kudos to him for wanting to get it right.

EDIT: I wonder if he'd consider coming here.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Wilshire on June 16, 2016, 12:40:24 pm
He's on other blogs or forums, so of course, why not here :P. I noticed no mention of this place in the acknowledgements/credits  ;).
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Madness on June 16, 2016, 12:42:53 pm
We get noticed by the pirates out there apparently.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: themerchant on June 16, 2016, 05:14:15 pm
Who would consider coming here?

Thats a genuine question, not me making a joke about no one would come here.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Wilshire on June 16, 2016, 05:21:48 pm
Who would consider coming here?

Thats a genuine question, not me making a joke about no one would come here.
Wert :P. The guy that's doing these posts ;).
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Aural on June 16, 2016, 05:22:00 pm
Wert usually posts on other forums (besides westeros) just to promote Bakker or his own blog. There is no need for him to do that here.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Wilshire on June 16, 2016, 05:22:48 pm
Wert usually posts on other forums (besides westeros) just to promote Bakker or his own blog. There is no need for him to do that here.
Good point. We don't need any more Bakker advertisements around here.


But, you know, anything to make this place in particular seem legitimate.

Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: MSJ on June 17, 2016, 01:11:08 am
Quote from: Wilshire link=topic=1816.msg27471#msg27471
But, you know, anything to make this place in particular seem legitimate.

I agree, having Wert and Pat post here would bring more traffic, I'd assume.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Madness on June 17, 2016, 03:17:05 pm
Oh well.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Wilshire on June 17, 2016, 04:18:22 pm
Oh well.
?
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Onrack on June 17, 2016, 04:38:47 pm
These entries are definitely quite gripping. As well as being loaded with new information, for me at least. I really should re-read the TTT glossary.

Second entry was a bit more clunky, but I suppose that's a result of there being less of a clear arc as in Inchoroi vs Nonmen. Lots of Empires falling and growing in a few short paragraphs.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Madness on June 18, 2016, 02:29:29 am
Oh well.
?


They'll show up or they won't :).

These entries are definitely quite gripping. As well as being loaded with new information, for me at least. I really should re-read the TTT glossary.

Second entry was a bit more clunky, but I suppose that's a result of there being less of a clear arc as in Inchoroi vs Nonmen. Lots of Empires falling and growing in a few short paragraphs.

The issue with Part I/Part III v. Part II is that the latter has no real narrative to draw from. Wert's working from so many factoids drawn from the narrative itself, TTT Glossary, old ZTS Q&A threads. Part I and Part III, which is tricky for its purposeful obfuscation as to what happened during the First Apocalypse, have the longest two Glossary entries by a page or two.

And obviously Bakker made some neat offerings to fill in some real gaps in Part I.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Doubt on June 18, 2016, 05:00:19 am
I don't recall ever hearing anything about the Shiradi Empire. That the Xiuhianni invaded them and had the strength to raze their capital and wage war is pretty damn interesting. Not hugely relevant tbh but still. Love learning crap about Eanna and the Xiuhanni.    ;D

There wasn't much mention of the Sranc in Part II. Surely they had a not-insignificant impact on the growth and fall of these empires? Perhaps have unified the peoples of the north against a common threat.

I found it odd where the tribes ended up. I was wondering if they decided among themselves who would go where, but I suppose they split up hunting the Mansions and just settled the fertile lands near them. But how did they know where to find the mansions? Did they wander around searching for them? Unlikely, else they wouldn't have settled in such defined areas imo, plus the Nonmen could have hidden their mansions as they did Golgotterath. I'd say the Inchoroi told them where the mansions were... Perhaps Husyelt told Angeshrael, or, most likely, the Tusk told them were to go.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Madness on June 18, 2016, 11:27:38 am
There wasn't much mention of the Sranc in Part II. Surely they had a not-insignificant impact on the growth and fall of these empires? Perhaps have unified the peoples of the north against a common threat.

I found it odd where the tribes ended up. I was wondering if they decided among themselves who would go where, but I suppose they split up hunting the Mansions and just settled the fertile lands near them. But how did they know where to find the mansions? Did they wander around searching for them? Unlikely, else they wouldn't have settled in such defined areas imo, plus the Nonmen could have hidden their mansions as they did Golgotterath. I'd say the Inchoroi told them where the mansions were... Perhaps Husyelt told Angeshrael, or, most likely, the Tusk told them were to go.

Interesting note about the Sranc.

Yeah, I'd imagine the Inchoroi tipped off the Tribes of the Tusk as per where to go.

Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Doubt :). Great handle for these parts.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Doubt on June 18, 2016, 05:27:30 pm
Cheers Madness. Yeah got it from Achamian :D
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Madness on June 18, 2016, 08:19:29 pm
Lol - messy though Achamian is, he does try to impart that to his students.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Madness on June 20, 2016, 01:53:53 am
Part 3 of The History, focusing on the Apocalypse. (http://thewertzone.blogspot.ca/2016/06/a-history-of-earwa-part-3-apocalypse.html)

Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Doubt on June 20, 2016, 03:51:43 am
Monster of an entry. Fantastic stuff  :D
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: themerchant on June 20, 2016, 12:02:15 pm
Some of that doesn't jive with my understanding, particularly where Ganrelka sits in the Anasurimbor family tree.

My understanding is of little use to others though :P
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Wilshire on June 20, 2016, 02:19:47 pm
Quote
Whilst still a child, he was identified as one of the Few, those that carry the mark of sorcery.
Not really a great definition. Should read "able to see Onta, the very essence of existence, and therefore able to use sorcery" or some such. "Carry the mark of sorcery" is probably not meant to be taken literally, but since those that wield sorcery literally do carry a mark, this descriptor is at best confusing, if not downright incorrect.

Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Madness on June 20, 2016, 02:27:23 pm
Lol - rabble, rabble, rabble.

But truthfully, they're still very well-done, despite fanatic quibbles, accurate though those quibbles may be. I think his intent is successful as he's trying to consolidate disparate pieces of the narrative for newcomers and mentioned at Westeros that he wanted to stay true to the, I guess, truthiness of Bakker's histories, or lack there of, as per our own histories.

Though - again, another benefit of him interacting places is that he's amended these already based on suggestions at Westeros so I'd say take the corrections to the comments at Wertzone.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Souljar on June 20, 2016, 02:36:46 pm
Hi all

New to the forum and wasn't too sure where to introduce myself. Long time Bakker fan and lurker on TPB. Anyhow, I would like to add my thanks for Wert’s effort in creating the “History of Earwa”, much appreciated.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Madness on June 20, 2016, 02:42:34 pm
Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Souljar.

I can't stress enough to new members, make yourself at home. The magic of this place is the people who choose to partake here :). Introducing yourself here was fine and feel free to resurrect topics, including the quoted portions from the old version of the forum.

Cheers.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Aural on June 26, 2016, 06:03:37 pm
Part 4 is up.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Madness on June 26, 2016, 10:21:46 pm
That was a good read. Though, I don't know if I agree with his choice to insert that bit about Cnaiur's encounter with Moenghus at the end as a segue to TDTCB.

Some other thoughts:

- No mention of the survivors from Sauglish finding Ishual.
- What the were the Mandate doing in those early years shortly after the Apocalypse when it was still fresh in the common consciousness?
- No mention of the Mission maintained by the Mandate in Atrithau.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Aural on June 26, 2016, 10:36:14 pm
What is the answer to thought number 2?

Eta: survivor finding Ishuäl, you mean ganrelka? Because that should be in the last entry under apocalypse.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Madness on June 26, 2016, 10:50:49 pm
You are right about Ganrelka in the Apocalypse entry. Though, I was thinking about the early "Dunyain" cultists.

I don't have answer to my second thought. Genuinely curious. It seems like the early generations of the Mandate might have done a better job of capitalizing on the fact that people still remembered the Apocalypse? Though I guess people believed the Consult defeated.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Bolivar on June 27, 2016, 02:25:16 am
Wert doing good work. I like how he ended this one, the next should be a good recap of the books.

Interesting how Inrithism was framed as what kept mankind from returning to barbarism during the age of warring cities. I construed the Thousand Temples as a Consult construct meant to prevent civilization from regaining the heights it achieved during the time of the Ancient North. You would think barbarism and fractiousness would further that but I guess controlling culture would be another way to do that.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Hirtius/Pansa on June 27, 2016, 04:32:57 am
Is it just me or does the font change about halfway through?  Rather jarring. 

I may be imagining things but wasn't it mentioned somewhere that Sejenus was actually executed at Kyudea?  Once the city was destroyed all the cultural significance of Sejenus and that mythology was shifted onto Shimeh for political/cultural reason.  I remember this—but I'm not sure from where... 

I love those political maps.

Edit: At the beginning of the novels, is Nron its own independent polity or is it a tributary state of Conriya?  I always assumed it was the latter.  But that map suggests otherwise.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: themerchant on June 27, 2016, 02:24:46 pm
I believe they have a treaty with Conriya, that's why Akka was sent to teach Proyas and he can call on them, as he does when they are about to meet Cnaiur.

They would be independent though i imagine. Beyond what the treaties say.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Madness on June 27, 2016, 02:46:27 pm
Wert doing good work. I like how he ended this one, the next should be a good recap of the books.

Yeah - though, I think that this was probably the last one as the series was about servicing newcomers to the series and making TDTCB a little more accessible.

Is it just me or does the font change about halfway through?  Rather jarring. 

I may be imagining things but wasn't it mentioned somewhere that Sejenus was actually executed at Kyudea?

Font changes twice actually throughout I think (though one might only be the caption of a picture).

Somewhere - and honestly, I'm so out of practice with sourcing the material - it's suggested that Sejenus actually ascended from Kyudea, not Shimeh.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: H on June 27, 2016, 02:56:46 pm
Somewhere - and honestly, I'm so out of practice with sourcing the material - it's suggested that Sejenus actually ascended from Kyudea, not Shimeh.

TTT glossary:

Quote
Ascension—The direct passage of Inri Sejenus to the Outside as described in “The Book of Days” in The Tractate. According to Inrithi tradition, Sejenus ascended from the Juterum, or the Sacred Heights, in Shimeh, though The Tractate seems to suggest that Kyudea and not Shimeh was the location. The First Temple was purportedly raised on the very location.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Madness on June 28, 2016, 03:41:30 pm
Thanks, H!
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Wilshire on July 06, 2016, 08:25:44 pm
5 parts so far:

A History of Eärwa Part 1: The Fall of the Ark & the Cûno-Inchoroi Wars (http://thewertzone.blogspot.com/2016/06/a-history-of-earwa-part-1-fall-of-ark.html)
A History of Eärwa Part 2: The Age of Man (http://thewertzone.blogspot.ca/2016/06/a-history-of-earwa-part-2-age-of-man.html)
A History of Eärwa Part 3: The Apocalypse (http://thewertzone.blogspot.ca/2016/06/a-history-of-earwa-part-3-apocalypse.html)
A History of Eärwa Part 4: The Modern Age (http://thewertzone.blogspot.ca/2016/06/a-history-of-earwa-part-4-modern-age.html)
A History of Eärwa Part 5: The Holy War (http://thewertzone.blogspot.ca/2016/07/a-history-of-earwa-part-5-holy-war.html)


Also on first page now.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Madness on July 11, 2016, 10:22:53 pm
Part 5! (http://thewertzone.blogspot.ca/2016/07/a-history-of-earwa-part-5-holy-war.html)

Basically PON in a post. Part 6 to come upon the impending release of TUC.

Great job, Wert.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Werthead on May 16, 2017, 07:36:24 pm
Part 6
 (http://thewertzone.blogspot.co.uk/2017/05/a-history-of-earwa-part-6-unification.html)

Part 7 coming soon, covering the first three Aspect-Emperor books.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Madness on May 16, 2017, 07:49:57 pm
Awesome, Wert, thanks for posting. I'll read it when I'm back at my computer and link it around.

Sourced from a "Unification Wars" Glossary entry :)?
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: H on May 16, 2017, 07:52:37 pm
Part 6
 (http://thewertzone.blogspot.co.uk/2017/05/a-history-of-earwa-part-6-unification.html)

Part 7 coming soon, covering the first three Aspect-Emperor books.

Thanks, we appreciate your work on this.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: themerchant on May 17, 2017, 10:42:51 am
Love these series Wert, good work :)

Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Werthead on May 21, 2017, 05:22:16 pm
Part 7: The Great Ordeal (http://thewertzone.blogspot.co.uk/2017/05/a-history-of-earwa-part-7-great-ordeal.html)
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Madness on May 21, 2017, 07:17:02 pm
I'm halfway through. Thanks for posting here, Wert.

EDIT: Updated all the links in profgrape's opening post.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: MSJ on May 21, 2017, 09:46:49 pm
"That Kellhus's love for his children clouded the Thousandfold Thought...."

There you go Wert, you get it! 🍻
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Redeagl on May 22, 2017, 12:13:15 am
"That Kellhus's love for his children clouded the Thousandfold Thought...."

There you go Wert, you get it! 🍻
If Kellhus left his children to die and is 100% ready to kill the rest anytime when he loved them, I wonder what would he had done if he hated them.....
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: MSJ on May 22, 2017, 12:34:54 am
"That Kellhus's love for his children clouded the Thousandfold Thought...."

There you go Wert, you get it! 🍻
If Kellhus left his children to die and is 100% ready to kill the rest anytime when he loved them, I wonder what would he had done if he hated them.....

Redeagl, in two months you will come to America and bow down to me. Exult, "The Master of theories."..
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: MSJ on May 22, 2017, 12:51:38 am
What child of Kellhus's that he brought to term, did he kill? Please enlighten me? You're letting your feeling get in the way of the facts Redeagl. In WLW, Maith presumes that Kellhus left his Empire to ruin, but that wasn't the case was it? I can keep going on, after you've answered those questions.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Redeagl on May 22, 2017, 01:17:32 am
What child of Kellhus's that he brought to term, did he kill? Please enlighten me? You're letting your feeling get in the way of the facts Redeagl. In WLW, Maith presumes that Kellhus left his Empire to ruin, but that wasn't the case was it? I can keep going on, after you've answered those questions.
Kellhus have been able to predict and counter the actions of The Consult yet can't see what an 8 year old kid would do?  well that is impossible.So, he left Theliopa,Samrmas and Inrilatas to die, knowing their fates for the most part. In his first return to Momemn in TJE, he told Esmi that he doesn't give a shit for his Samrnas' death.Then the Niom comes, where he sold Serwa and if you count him; Möenghus.He gave three year old Serwa to the Swayali because he knew that he needed another Dûnyain with the Metagnosis, if he let his love for his children cloud the TTT he certainly wouldn't have done that.We don't know for sure why he returned yet btw. He did tell Proyas in the beginning of TWLW that the Empire is going to fall and seemed like he didn't care.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Redeagl on May 22, 2017, 01:20:57 am
"That Kellhus's love for his children clouded the Thousandfold Thought...."

There you go Wert, you get it! 🍻
If Kellhus left his children to die and is 100% ready to kill the rest anytime when he loved them, I wonder what would he had done if he hated them.....

Redeagl, in two months you will come to America and bow down to me. Exult, "The Master of theories."..
Aye, a Master you are... A Master of Nothing.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: MSJ on May 22, 2017, 02:09:24 am
What child of Kellhus's that he brought to term, did he kill? Please enlighten me? You're letting your feeling get in the way of the facts Redeagl. In WLW, Maith presumes that Kellhus left his Empire to ruin, but that wasn't the case was it? I can keep going on, after you've answered those questions.
Kellhus have been able to predict and counter the actions of The Consult yet can't see what an 8 year old kid would do?  well that is impossible.So, he left Theliopa,Samrmas and Inrilatas to die, knowing their fates for the most part. In his first return to Momemn in TJE, he told Esmi that he doesn't give a shit for his Samrnas' death.Then the Niom comes, where he sold Serwa and if you count him; Möenghus.He gave three year old Serwa to the Swayali because he knew that he needed another Dûnyain with the Metagnosis, if he let his love for his children cloud the TTT he certainly wouldn't have done that.We don't know for sure why he returned yet btw. He did tell Proyas in the beginning of TWLW that the Empire is going to fall and seemed like he didn't care.

He returned for love, Redeagl. Love
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: themerchant on May 22, 2017, 10:28:45 am
Be pretty weird that Kellhus risked the end of humanity for his love of Esmenet when Akka was able to reason himself out of not doing it himself, during the first holy war.

Esme constantly wanted them to just run away but Akka couldn't cause the end of the world. 20 years later Kellhus is unable to resist his love and returns to momenn to save her.

I think he was returning anyway he had to finish the WLW stuff.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: MSJ on May 22, 2017, 02:27:55 pm
Be pretty weird that Kellhus risked the end of humanity for his love of Esmenet when Akka was able to reason himself out of not doing it himself, during the first holy war.

Esme constantly wanted them to just run away but Akka couldn't cause the end of the world. 20 years later Kellhus is unable to resist his love and returns to momenn to save her.

I think he was returning anyway he had to finish the WLW stuff.

Oh, he's not risking the end of humanity for Esmenet. Maithenet can just see the love for his children, because Maith is Dunyain and he thinks it clouds his judgement. I think its what gives him the will to keep going on.

ETA: and the way I read the WLW scene, if not for Kelmommas there is no more Kellhus. I believe what he told Esme to be the truth.

ETA: "Everything I say cannot be a lie, so why do insist that it is Scyvlendi?"
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: H on May 22, 2017, 02:43:17 pm
I really doubt Kellhus has risked anything.

Chances are everything is preordained, Kellhus can't really fail, so long as he listens to the Voice.  And we have no indication he has done anything besides listen.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: MSJ on May 22, 2017, 02:48:04 pm
I really doubt Kellhus has risked anything.

Chances are everything is preordained, Kellhus can't really fail, so long as he listens to the Voice.  And we have no indication he has done anything besides listen.

Neither do I. My point was that Maithenet, as a Dunyain was able to read the love Kellhus bears his children and family. He thinks this clouds his judgement. I do not.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: MSJ on May 22, 2017, 02:55:31 pm
Aye, a Master you are... A Master of Nothing.

A Master of Nothing, aye. I am a Master of my progeny, I Rule the House MSJ.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: H on May 22, 2017, 02:59:19 pm
I really doubt Kellhus has risked anything.

Chances are everything is preordained, Kellhus can't really fail, so long as he listens to the Voice.  And we have no indication he has done anything besides listen.

Neither do I. My point was that Maithenet, as a Dunyain was able to read the love Kellhus bears his children and family. He thinks this clouds his judgement. I do not.

I'm on the fence about that, because I fail to see love toward any of them really.  Sure, it's stated by Maithenet, but where is it actually shown or demonstrated?

What love did he ever show for Theli, for example, considering what he allowed to happen to her in the end?  And not only that, what he allowed Inri to do to her before that?

To even connect with that, is it love to allow Inri to be chained up like that?  To live the sort of existence he had to?  And to subject Esmenet to seeing her son like that?

And that is just two of the kids.  What about Sammi?  Little Kel?  What love do we really see there?  And so on, and so on.  Are we to plausibly assume that Kellhus knew nothing of any of that?  Or did he chose to not know?
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: MSJ on May 22, 2017, 03:11:10 pm
I'm on the fence about that, because I fail to see love toward any of them really.  Sure, it's stated by Maithenet, but where is it actually shown or demonstrated?

What love did he ever show for Theli, for example, considering what he allowed to happen to her in the end?  And not only that, what he allowed Inri to do to her before that?

To even connect with that, is it love to allow Inri to be chained up like that?  To live the sort of existence he had to?  And to subject Esmenet to seeing her son like that?

And that is just two of the kids.  What about Sammi?  Little Kel?  What love do we really see there?  And so on, and so on.  Are we to plausibly assume that Kellhus knew nothing of any of that?  Or did he chose to not know?

Thelli, I fail to comprehend how he would know of how she would die. As I said, without Kelmommas, Kellhus is killed by the WLW.

Inri, he was not able to control, because he let his emotions utterly rule him. I think Kellhus would've actually killed him if not for Esme.

Serwa, he loves her and it is shown throughout her flashbacks. If anything he loves her most. She is as close to Kellhus as any of his kids and used her in the Niom because he knew she would succeed. From, Wert's history we already have one speculation confirmed.

(click to show/hide)

Kelmommas- a necessary evil, is all.

Kayutas and Moe- two of his generals and one is leading the Ordeal and the other will help get Serwa and Sorweel back to the Ordeal.

I fail to see that because he uses their capabilities that that means he doesn't love them. Harsh times calls for harsher measures.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: H on May 22, 2017, 03:46:04 pm
Using them to their capabilities is indeed what he does with Serwa and Kayutas, possibly Moe, but the rest?  That doesn't seem really what he is doing.  Perhaps he did spare Inri out of love for Esmenet.  But what he lets happen under his nose to Sammi and Theli is pretty inexcusable, especially when you consider he is the pinnacle of the Dunyain.

I don't simply mean how he let Theli die.  That was probably out of his hands/in the hands of Momas and/or Yatwer.  But to allow Inri to sexually abuse her?  With Kellhus perceptual ability, there is absolutely no chance he didn't notice the profound effect it had on her and so would be able to figure out why it happened.  That is not love, even if in some twisted way it had to happen.  Theli was abused by both Kellhus and Inri, no matter how you slice it, and that is not love.  Not any way I can possibly understand it.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: MSJ on May 22, 2017, 04:15:19 pm
Using them to their capabilities is indeed what he does with Serwa and Kayutas, possibly Moe, but the rest?  That doesn't seem really what he is doing.  Perhaps he did spare Inri out of love for Esmenet.  But what he lets happen under his nose to Sammi and Theli is pretty inexcusable, especially when you consider he is the pinnacle of the Dunyain.

I don't simply mean how he let Theli die.  That was probably out of his hands/in the hands of Momas and/or Yatwer.  But to allow Inri to sexually abuse her?  With Kellhus perceptual ability, there is absolutely no chance he didn't notice the profound effect it had on her and so would be able to figure out why it happened.  That is not love, even if in some twisted way it had to happen.  Theli was abused by both Kellhus and Inri, no matter how you slice it, and that is not love.  Not any way I can possibly understand it.

Valid points. But, I will not back down from my stance that Kellhuss is driven by emotion/love. Even if it is not recognisable to us. I've given many, many examples at to why I believe this. I think Maithenet seeing the love Kellhus bears his children is another notch in that belt, is all.

For example, lets just look at why the Thought come about. To save humanity from the No-God and to destroy the Consult. This in itself is enough to conclude that they care for humanity. Its certainly not to save the Dunyain's mission. From, "His heart would crash to ruin" to coming back to save the Empire and Esme there is plenty of evidence that this is the case. Kellhus is more for the simple reason that he feels emotions, cares for humanity.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: H on May 22, 2017, 04:19:15 pm
Valid points. But, I will not back down from my stance that Kellhuss is driven by emotion/love. Even if it is not recognisable to us. I've given many, many examples at to why I believe this. I think Maithenet seeing the love Kellhus bears his children is another notch in that belt, is all.

For example, lets just look at why the Thought come about. To save humanity from the No-God and to destroy the Consult. This in itself is enough to conclude that they care for humanity. Its certainly not to save the Dunyain's mission. From, "His heart would crash to ruin" to coming back to save the Empire and Esme there is plenty of evidence that this is the case. Kellhus is more for the simple reason that he feels emotions, cares for humanity.

Back to our usual same circular "argument."  ;)

While post-TGO I don't think there can be any question of if emotion, i.e. feelings, are somehow involved, I certainly have doubts about their extent and the extent to which they are driving the plan or simply part of the plan.

You know we can do this for days though, so we'll just have to RaFO (if TUC actually even answers this question).
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: MSJ on May 22, 2017, 05:28:53 pm
Valid points. But, I will not back down from my stance that Kellhuss is driven by emotion/love. Even if it is not recognisable to us. I've given many, many examples at to why I believe this. I think Maithenet seeing the love Kellhus bears his children is another notch in that belt, is all.

For example, lets just look at why the Thought come about. To save humanity from the No-God and to destroy the Consult. This in itself is enough to conclude that they care for humanity. Its certainly not to save the Dunyain's mission. From, "His heart would crash to ruin" to coming back to save the Empire and Esme there is plenty of evidence that this is the case. Kellhus is more for the simple reason that he feels emotions, cares for humanity.

Back to our usual same circular "argument."  ;)

While post-TGO I don't think there can be any question of if emotion, i.e. feelings, are somehow involved, I certainly have doubts about their extent and the extent to which they are driving the plan or simply part of the plan.

You know we can do this for days though, so we'll just have to RaFO (if TUC actually even answers this question).

Semantics, yep, we agree. I do think it will be answered though.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: TaoHorror on May 22, 2017, 07:29:01 pm
Friends! A gift for you ... I have the answer!

Kellhus "sees" the 2nd Apocalypse and a path through it, the TTT. His "love" of humanity allows him to take on the challenge to thread the needle of events to ensure humanity's success. All that has happened, with standard deviations ( some of what you two are going back and forth about could be "slight" deviations along the path ), are pavers. The orchestration of events to drive an ultimate outcome. His love is such that he is willing to "allow" sacrifices of his family to achieve, but does not enjoy the luxury to entertain the misery resulting from those losses as most of us do. What you perceive is a lack of love is actually the strength of prodigious ( can't think of a better term ) love - the love of all humanity, the love of our future, our potential. Refer to all of the tales of insight into human identity during the Holy War/march ... Cniur concluded it was all a manipulation to have his followers "fall in love" with him so they would follow his leadership - but its more than that, it's laying the groundwork to "assist" humans next "move" in evolution. We're "stuck" in pettiness, childishness - but that's not all we are, the hot hot hot human emotions that drives our insane actions/reactions/paranoia in a reality with so many unknowns, the perpetual bumping into each other playing for advantage has an air of strength and beauty to it as well - just requires a better awareness of that octane we call love so we can become more. The great irony of this mad story of extreme violence and depravity is our optimism of our potential. Bakker provides an external threat limiting us, but the message is we're actually limiting ourselves. It's the Inchoroi "inside" us that takes over when we're self-destructively violent or petty. It's the human in us that elevates, that loves.

So there you have it - the message of this great work - summed up nice and neat - on the one hand, Bakker tasks us as readers to not fall in love with our heroes, but at the same time, showing us what real love really is. The Dunyain mastered 1/2 of human potential ... Cniur mastered the other half. Together, logic and the blast furnace that is love, one providing the thrust with the other the direction, we will rise. And that ascension will be made on the back of horror, but not through conquering each other, but conquering ourselves collectively.

Unless I'm wrong. A more interesting question may be why does it matter to you/us if Kellhus "experiences" love? Does the answer to that effect the validation of his attempt to thwart the human extinction event?
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: H on May 22, 2017, 07:44:00 pm
Unless I'm wrong. A more interesting question may be why does it matter to you/us if Kellhus "experiences" love? Does the answer to that effect the validation of his attempt to thwart the human extinction event?

The question rises from asking, "what separates Kellhus from Moënghus?"

When Kellhus tells him, "I am more," what does that mean?

Does it really matter to me?  Not particularly.  All I ever really try to do to string together piece of a books in a way to explain what might be happening.  I never really say something must be, rather I try to rate the probability of things based off how much textual evidence there is.  If you ever really find me debating something, it is mostly just the relative probability of things.

It's rather irrelevant to me, in the long run, if Kellhus is doing things out of love, selfishness, or just for a ham sandwich.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: MSJ on May 22, 2017, 08:35:06 pm
Unless I'm wrong. A more interesting question may be why does it matter to you/us if Kellhus "experiences" love? Does the answer to that effect the validation of his attempt to thwart the human extinction event?

The question rises from asking, "what separates Kellhus from Moënghus?"

When Kellhus tells him, "I am more," what does that mean?

Does it really matter to me?  Not particularly.  All I ever really try to do to string together piece of a books in a way to explain what might be happening.  I never really say something must be, rather I try to rate the probability of things based off how much textual evidence there is.  If you ever really find me debating something, it is mostly just the relative probability of things.

It's rather irrelevant to me, in the long run, if Kellhus is doing things out of love, selfishness, or just for a ham sandwich.

Same here. Doesn't really matter, just what I think the text leads us, or rather, me to. I've been wrong about things before and it truly has zero bearing on how i feel about the book. Its Bakker's story, not mine. As long as its done well, is all that matters.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: TaoHorror on May 22, 2017, 10:41:20 pm
Ah, apologies - I unintendedly insulted the pursuit of understanding here in this forum, something I very much enjoy myself. I was trying to convey, do we need him "human" at all for us to "root" for him. I think the lack of POV from Kellhus is purposeful beyond the challenge of articulating such a mind in prose. If he does "save" us, but find out he's a corruption, does that water down the achievement? If he really feels nothing of the deaths and suffering of his children, can he still be a "hero"?

I don't see the jump from not feeling for his family but taking on the monumental effort to drag hordes of people through hellish landscape, subsisting on what amounts to shit, to save the human race - either he's a mad sadist with a flair for epic violent waste of time and lives or he gives a shit.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Madness on May 22, 2017, 11:44:03 pm
Your lengthy commune aside, I think there is a much clearer mistake in Wert's History TGO regarding Mimara outing Soma because of the Judging Eye. She's trained as all Anasurimbor children are trained to recognize Skin-Spies, not because of something special imbued by the Eye.

On (off?) topic, contextually, on three points:

- It would seem like Kellhus was so busy and Kelmomas escaped scrutiny at the right moments.
- Esmenet apparently never found out about Inrilatas abusing Theliopa, as per Kelmomas and Theliopa's conversation, and Kellhus did imprison Inrilatas for his crime (though perhaps spared his life out of love, for Esmenet or otherwise).
- Theliopa totally was used regarding usefulness potentia by Kellhus, she's Esmenet's Hitchhiker's Guide to Earwa: one of my favorite quotes from TGO, badly paraphrasing, is when the away team Exalt-General returns to Momemn and it takes "nearly everyone there to answer his questions, absent Theli."
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: H on May 23, 2017, 10:42:31 am
- Theliopa totally was used regarding usefulness potentia by Kellhus, she's Esmenet's Hitchhiker's Guide to Earwa: one of my favorite quotes from TGO, badly paraphrasing, is when the away team Exalt-General returns to Momemn and it takes "nearly everyone there to answer his questions, absent Theli."

That is kind of my point though, that Kellhus' relationship with the children is less a father to a child, than it is a man to his tools.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: TaoHorror on May 31, 2017, 10:46:55 pm
I think the word below in red should be now ... not too far into A History of Eärwa Part 3: The Apocalypse

Seswatha took this knowledge to his old friend, who know ruled as Anasûrimbor
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Werthead on June 01, 2017, 06:23:09 pm
Thanks, that's been amended in the PDF version.

I've sent a copy to Scott to see if there's any egregious errors he wants to pull out or isn't happy with, but if not I'll release that into the wild in a week or two.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Madness on June 01, 2017, 06:24:25 pm
I'm really excited for this. Thanks, Wert. It makes a different in efforts to promote the series.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Werthead on June 09, 2017, 11:15:06 pm
PDF VERSION! (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7af3IhBKbgrTmp5d3M3bXRja1U)

Let me know what you think and any changes that may be needed before I share this more widely. I'm not sure the bold, smaller type for the image captions is working too great, but aside from that I think it's relatively solid.

Note that I didn't hear back from Scott, so there may be mistakes/misunderstandings from me in there. No spoilers from the UC storyline though.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: TaoHorror on June 10, 2017, 11:44:41 am
If you hadn't brought it up, don't think I would have taken notice - but looking at the bold text under the pictures, think all you have to do is pick a thinner text, the letters blend into each other a tad. But it looks good, so doing nothing, leaving it alone is good option as well. Thanks for your work on this, nice piece.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Madness on June 10, 2017, 11:48:45 am
It is a really amazing and well-put together document, Wert.

I'm building list a couple pages long of bullet-point "quibbles" as I'll call them but I don't know if that's what you're looking for. Let me know, thanks.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Werthead on June 10, 2017, 11:53:08 am
It is a really amazing and well-put together document, Wert.

I'm building list a couple pages long of bullet-point "quibbles" as I'll call them but I don't know if that's what you're looking for. Let me know, thanks.

Sure. Things that are actual mistakes are what I'm really looking for (like I see one of the pictures and captions actually de-centred for some reason, so I've fixed that in the next version).
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Madness on June 10, 2017, 12:07:21 pm
Lol, I was going to list a couple to float by you but now that I'm reading some of these with a morning eye, I can see reasons to invalidate most of my quibbles, so far. But for fodder, a few of them:

- "For reasons unknown, this order was rescinded and Sirwatta merely had his tongue removed" (p3).
      - "By other accounts" - as I don't believe it was confirmed one way or another.

- "the Father of Dragons (although he survived)" (p16).
      - I don't see a reason to add these brackets, though I suppose the later history entry does confirm his "living" on.

- "In this room was located an object known only as the “Inverse Fire”. Every Cûnuroi who beheld this artifact was driven insane on the instant, proclaiming that the Inchoroi were right and all the people of the World were doomed to damnation" (p18)
      - "The three Cunuroi" - every makes it sound like many, at least to mine eyes.

- "ordered the Qûya under Emilidis, the Artisan, to raise a glamour (known as the Barricades) about it to hide it away from the rest of the world and prevent entry" (p18).
      - That the Glamour and Barricades are one and the same is apparently up to some debate – I’m of the opinion that they’re one and the same but I was a minority in the last conversation we had about it in Quorum here.

- "divine aspects of the One God, who responded to their prayers and intervened in the affairs of men" (p20).
      - I don't know where you found this "One God" bit. Wasn't the whole relevation of Inri Sejenus that the Hundred Kunniat Gods were in fact aspects of the God-of-Gods?

Anyhow, let me know :). I think the first four are just me being super-critical and are irrelevant to newcomers, at whom this is aimed, and the overall awesomeness of your work.

The last there though, I'm genuinely perplexed.

As said though, if these are not what you're looking for, I'll keep enjoying the read and look for grammatical errors, formatting errors, and more major canon errors.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Werthead on June 10, 2017, 06:33:49 pm
Quote
- "In this room was located an object known only as the “Inverse Fire”. Every Cûnuroi who beheld this artifact was driven insane on the instant, proclaiming that the Inchoroi were right and all the people of the World were doomed to damnation" (p18)
      - "The three Cunuroi" - every makes it sound like many, at least to mine eyes.

Many Cunuroi did see the Inverse Fire; those three were only the ones that Nil'giccas sent directly to investigate, but Nin'janjin saw it previously and presumably many of the Quya who went over to the Inchoroi earlier (the ones who create the Chorae, among others) did as well.

Quote
- "ordered the Qûya under Emilidis, the Artisan, to a glamour (known as the Barricades) about it to hide it away from the rest of the world and prevent entry" (p18).
      - That the Glamour and Barricades are one and raise the same is apparently up to some debate – I’m of the opinion that they’re one and the same but I was a minority in the last conversation we had about it in Quorum here.

Good point. I wonder if Scott moved away from the original idea of the Glamour. I originally got the impression that it was some sort of cloaking field placed over the entire area to prevent people from finding it, but this seems unnecessary and ineffectual (the Nonmen knew where it was, and for anyone else the absolutely massive 100-mile-wide mega-crater of the Black Furnace Plain might be a bit of a clue). Definitely the idea by The False Sun is that it's a sorcerous barrier protecting the one extant doorway into the Ark (the rest having been sealed with soggomant).

Quote
I don't know where you found this "One God" bit. Wasn't the whole relevation of Inri Sejenus that the Hundred Kunniat Gods were in fact aspects of the God-of-Gods?

I think that's my over-familiarity with numerous other fantasy series creeping in, where the "One God" comes up a lot as a term.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Madness on June 10, 2017, 06:39:58 pm
Do you want me to keep going as I was then, Wert, if you found those few [two] useful?
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Werthead on June 10, 2017, 06:49:08 pm
Sure.

The God-of-Gods existed in the Kunniat tradition as well as an "abstract placeholder". It's unclear if the Shamans believed only in the God of Gods and the Prophets then introduced the Hundred (or the Hundred seized on the Prophets to seize the hearts and souls of men), or if the Hundred existed in the Shamanic period (pre-Tusk, pre-Hundred) also.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Madness on June 10, 2017, 06:56:01 pm
Agreed, that is a possibility.

I find there are often as many interpretations of the text as there are readers - though, Hiro will admonish me that this is impossible ;). For my money, though, I find it likely that during the Shamanic period (or pre-Kiunnat, pre-Tusk) humans simply attributed God-head to different aspects of their lives and eventually arrived at that nice round hundred number.

But, as always, just fodder for you to use or toss at your leisure. Thanks much for your efforts with this, The Compendium of Werthead, Wert :). I know Bakker is tickled pink whenever your History of Earwa series comes up.

I will try and get through the rest of the file this evening. I believe I started into Part 3 last night before hitting the sack.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Werthead on June 10, 2017, 09:41:56 pm
Quote
For my money, though, I find it likely that during the Shamanic period (or pre-Kiunnat, pre-Tusk) humans simply attributed God-head to different aspects of their lives and eventually arrived at that nice round hundred number.

I'm intrigued by the theory that the Nonmen inadvertently created the Hundred (the whole "99 sons" thing from TGO) but we need more information on that.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Madness on June 11, 2017, 10:35:44 am
Yeah, I noticed some members picked that up from the Boatman's Song in TGO. I try and keep my authorial insights to myself but in this case, I do know that Bakker is purposely doing something with number notation across the series (as I said to Wilshire recently, I was never interested in that aspect of the story enough to and figure it out but apparently there is something there.)

Also, sorry, Wert, didn't get to it last night but sometime early this afternoon I will do due diligence.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Yellow on June 11, 2017, 03:04:43 pm

I'm intrigued by the theory that the Nonmen inadvertently created the Hundred (the whole "99 sons" thing from TGO) but we need more information on that.

I'm definitely of this camp as well. I keep thinking of the opening quote from the prologue of TGO, and can't think what it's related to, or how it ties in with the hundred (other than the obvious, literal manner).

Quote from: Fane
And naught was known or unknown, and there was no hunger.
All was One in silence, and it was as Death.
Then the Word was spoken, and One became Many.
Doing was struck from the hip of Being.
And the Solitary God said, 'Let there be Deceit. Let there be Desire.'

- The Book of Fane

Was the Word actually sorcery? Did the Quya somehow create the hundred? I guess the obvious thing would be that the One spoke the Word to create the many. But I can't help but feel the Nonmen are involved. I also think that it being the very first quote in the book gives it particular thematic weight.

By the way, Wert - love your history series. I shared it with a friend a few months back and she said she couldn't breathe while she was reading it :) Turned out she hadn't read the glossary closely enough and didn't know the Inchoroi arrived from space!
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: H on June 12, 2017, 01:18:14 pm

I'm intrigued by the theory that the Nonmen inadvertently created the Hundred (the whole "99 sons" thing from TGO) but we need more information on that.

I'm definitely of this camp as well. I keep thinking of the opening quote from the prologue of TGO, and can't think what it's related to, or how it ties in with the hundred (other than the obvious, literal manner).

Quote from: Fane
And naught was known or unknown, and there was no hunger.
All was One in silence, and it was as Death.
Then the Word was spoken, and One became Many.
Doing was struck from the hip of Being.
And the Solitary God said, 'Let there be Deceit. Let there be Desire.'

- The Book of Fane

Was the Word actually sorcery? Did the Quya somehow create the hundred? I guess the obvious thing would be that the One spoke the Word to create the many. But I can't help but feel the Nonmen are involved. I also think that it being the very first quote in the book gives it particular thematic weight.

By the way, Wert - love your history series. I shared it with a friend a few months back and she said she couldn't breathe while she was reading it :) Turned out she hadn't read the glossary closely enough and didn't know the Inchoroi arrived from space!

I'll find the quote later, but Bakker actually said that no one fractured the God, God did.

EDIT: Found it:

Quote
It's not Ajokli who's invisible, and no, the Nonmen didn't shatter God, God did.

I think the Word is literally language.  Once language was around to categorize things, differentiate things, no longer was an idyllic state of simple Being possible, all was made to be Doing.  I think it is a reconceptualized "Fall" of Christian mythos.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Werthead on June 12, 2017, 05:16:23 pm
The final release version, barring Scott or Madness raising major issues, is here (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7af3IhBKbgrTmp5d3M3bXRja1U).
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Wilshire on June 13, 2017, 12:18:53 pm
Wow, thanks Wert - that's quite the document! Great job.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: profgrape on June 13, 2017, 10:35:36 pm
Ditto, fantastic work, Wert!
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Madness on June 14, 2017, 11:33:45 am
Sent you a PM, Wert, since you're likely not used to paying attention to our system. As noted, please feel free to disregard anything I offered :).

And yes, you've done an incredible job. I think even the hardcores, maybe even especially the hardcores, will appreciate your document - though, obviously, it is invaluable for the casual reader hoping to catch up before TUC.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Werthead on June 14, 2017, 10:12:45 pm
Done a final (final?) update with Madness's feedback and some other feedback incorporated. I swapped out the front image, because it was suggested that Kellhus isn't the be-all and end-all of Earwa. Also it meant I could use that image rather than Jason's earlier (and less detailed) one for the Unification Wars chapter.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Madness on June 14, 2017, 10:28:36 pm
Nice :).

I'm going to re-read it it without the Judging Eye while I'm on the bus back home.

Thanks again for your efforts, Wert.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Werthead on June 29, 2017, 09:44:37 pm
I suddenly realised I left out a rather important map (the one of the Holy War) from the PDF, so I went back and re-added it. I also added the List of Cants to the glossary, as that seemed like a good match for it (in the sorcerous schools section). Updated version in the original link.

And yes, I will update it again to account for the events of TUC (although that won't be needed until TSTCBN is due, so probably a couple of years away).
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Madness on June 30, 2017, 01:09:20 pm
Good stuff, Wert :).
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on July 07, 2017, 10:11:16 pm
This is some impressive work, and it came in quite handy as a more detailed "What Has Come Before" that doesn't take as long as a proper reread. :) (as I don't have the time to do one before reading TUC, it helped me remember some things that weren't as fresh in myy mind anymore)


Just one question, though, are you getting some of the dates for events and birth/death years directly from the TUC appendices? Because I don't recall, for instance, ever being given exact birth years for Achamian, Esmenet, Kellhus, and most of the Anasûrimbor children. Sorry if I'm being nitpicky, but I have an interest in timelines, and figuring out everyone's ages is kind of an obsessive thing of mine. I remember Achamian, Cnaïur, Esmenet, Serwë, etc. had their ages stated in the appendices for the first series, but it did span a few years (4109-4112, right?) so that wasn't exact.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Werthead on July 08, 2017, 12:19:54 am
This is some impressive work, and it came in quite handy as a more detailed "What Has Come Before" that doesn't take as long as a proper reread. :) (as I don't have the time to do one before reading TUC, it helped me remember some things that weren't as fresh in myy mind anymore)


Just one question, though, are you getting some of the dates for events and birth/death years directly from the TUC appendices? Because I don't recall, for instance, ever being given exact birth years for Achamian, Esmenet, Kellhus, and most of the Anasûrimbor children. Sorry if I'm being nitpicky, but I have an interest in timelines, and figuring out everyone's ages is kind of an obsessive thing of mine. I remember Achamian, Cnaïur, Esmenet, Serwë, etc. had their ages stated in the appendices for the first series, but it did span a few years (4109-4112, right?) so that wasn't exact.

I went with the best guesses from the Wiki, most of them based on logical extrapolation (i.e. Theliopa being born during Kellhus and Esmenet's sojourn in Nenciphon). When you realise Serwa is only 17 (at best) in TAE, it's a bit of a jarring moment :)
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Hiro on July 08, 2017, 11:17:58 am
This is some impressive work, and it came in quite handy as a more detailed "What Has Come Before" that doesn't take as long as a proper reread. :) (as I don't have the time to do one before reading TUC, it helped me remember some things that weren't as fresh in myy mind anymore)


Just one question, though, are you getting some of the dates for events and birth/death years directly from the TUC appendices? Because I don't recall, for instance, ever being given exact birth years for Achamian, Esmenet, Kellhus, and most of the Anasûrimbor children. Sorry if I'm being nitpicky, but I have an interest in timelines, and figuring out everyone's ages is kind of an obsessive thing of mine. I remember Achamian, Cnaïur, Esmenet, Serwë, etc. had their ages stated in the appendices for the first series, but it did span a few years (4109-4112, right?) so that wasn't exact.

I went with the best guesses from the Wiki, most of them based on logical extrapolation (i.e. Theliopa being born during Kellhus and Esmenet's sojourn in Nenciphon). When you realise Serwa is only 17 (at best) in TAE, it's a bit of a jarring moment :)

True, however 17 in ancient times was different than it is now.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on July 08, 2017, 12:27:24 pm
I went with the best guesses from the Wiki, most of them based on logical extrapolation (i.e. Theliopa being born during Kellhus and Esmenet's sojourn in Nenciphon). When you realise Serwa is only 17 (at best) in TAE, it's a bit of a jarring moment :)

I see, I wondered if it was the wiki or the appendices. :)
Do you know that Serwa and the rest might be even younger? I was going to make a thread about the younger generation's birth years at one point after I first joined the forum, so I looked up age references for them at the time. Moënghus II and Kayûtas we have definite birth years for, but Theliopa is referred to as being 16 during TJE (can't remember exactly where, but it's early in the book). Even if she was still turning 17 later in the year, that would still give her a birth year of 4115 at the earliest, and by extension Serwa would have been born in 4116 or 4117 and would be 15-16 during TAE!


True, however 17 in ancient times was different than it is now.

Yes, that's true, I suppose, and we can't judge half-Dûnyain teenagers by the same standard we would judge regular human ones either. ;) Still, it's impressive how powerful Serwa is at such a young age.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Werthead on July 08, 2017, 11:39:02 pm
If Theliopa was supposed to be 16 in TJE, that's clearly gone out the window in TUC: she was born when Kellhus and Esment were sojourning in the White-Sun Palace in Nenciphon, which was in 4113. So she's 19 at the start of TJE and Serwa would logically be 1-2 years younger than her.

Bakker does have form for this kind of retcon. The Swayal Compact's HQ moves from being in Iothiah in TJE to the ruined mansion of Illisseru in TUC as well.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on July 08, 2017, 11:53:47 pm
If Theliopa was supposed to be 16 in TJE, that's clearly gone out the window in TUC: she was born when Kellhus and Esment were sojourning in the White-Sun Palace in Nenciphon, which was in 4113. So she's 19 at the start of TJE and Serwa would logically be 1-2 years younger than her.

Bakker does have form for this kind of retcon. The Swayal Compact's HQ moves from being in Iothiah in TJE to the ruined mansion of Illisseru in TUC as well.

I kind of figured the 16(or 17)-year-old- Theliopa would be changed later on, even without access to that information from TUC, it does make more sense for the story to have her (and by extension Serwa and also Inrilatas) be older. Especially when you consider Serwa's level of power and Inrilatas' description as someone who clearly has to be a few years past the start of puberty (given that the nameless deformed child was born between Serwa and Inrilatas, having a 4116 or 4117 birth year for Serwa would result in a 4118 or 4119 birth year for Inrilatas to account for that, and Inrilatas does not look like he's only 13-14). Sometimes, a retcon really is needed. ;)


EDIT, July 9: Because I couldn't math properly when writing this post last night - for some reason I kept thinking the current Eärwa year was 4130.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Wilshire on July 11, 2017, 02:25:32 pm
Bakker retcons all the time. Whole cities has moved :P . The world and the pieces that move within it are all very fluid, which is a source of minor frustration for me.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on July 11, 2017, 03:05:29 pm
Bakker retcons all the time. Whole cities has moved :P . The world and the pieces that move within it are all very fluid, which is a source of minor frustration for me.

I think I just haven't noticed the retcons of the geographic sort because that doesn't tend to hold my interest as much. ;)
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Wilshire on July 11, 2017, 03:39:20 pm
Don't look to closely! Keep things vaguely out of focus, things flow better that way.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Wilshire on July 26, 2017, 11:11:14 am
I'd have to say, I'm a bit disappointed this lovely history isn't included somehow within TUC itself. Plenty of glossaries in there, this would have made a nice succinct entry. Going to have to figure out if I can print it our or something, make it into an addendum that fits with the book. Page sizing may be an issue - wonder if my library's book printer could be able to handle it.... must investigate further.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Werthead on April 09, 2018, 09:07:36 pm
The History has been updated with Unholy Consult material. (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1R_Gp-xTjsEXQBvkZQENi6dliyk8SFeHT)
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Madness on April 09, 2018, 11:15:55 pm
That's amazing, again, Wert.

I have quibbles but this time around they aren't worth interrogating because I am very much among the minority regarding interpretations of TUC's end.

Thanks for your work.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: MSJ on April 09, 2018, 11:29:14 pm
Thanks, Wert!
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Wilshire on April 10, 2018, 04:26:25 pm
Thanks for posting here Wert, much appreciated.

ThoughtsOfThelli, I wonder if this new PDF helps clarify some of your timeline woes.

Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on April 10, 2018, 04:35:50 pm
So glad to hear about this update, thank you Wert! :)



ThoughtsOfThelli, I wonder if this new PDF helps clarify some of your timeline woes.

It probably will, I still need to check it in more detail.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: mostly.harmless on April 15, 2018, 05:51:30 pm
That's amazing, again, Wert.

I have quibbles but this time around they aren't worth interrogating because I am very much among the minority regarding interpretations of TUC's end.

Thanks for your work.
Interesting you say that Madness, there seem to be some points of contention settled in this summary.

Is this confirmed as accurate by the man himself?!

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Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: Wilshire on April 17, 2018, 11:26:36 am
That's amazing, again, Wert.

I have quibbles but this time around they aren't worth interrogating because I am very much among the minority regarding interpretations of TUC's end.

Thanks for your work.
Interesting you say that Madness, there seem to be some points of contention settled in this summary.

Is this confirmed as accurate by the man himself?!

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk


Insofar as he confirms anything, yes. I'd say its at least as authoritative as the What Has Come Before sections in the books themselves.
Title: Re: History of Earwa from Wert
Post by: mostly.harmless on April 17, 2018, 11:27:36 am
That's amazing, again, Wert.

I have quibbles but this time around they aren't worth interrogating because I am very much among the minority regarding interpretations of TUC's end.

Thanks for your work.
Interesting you say that Madness, there seem to be some points of contention settled in this summary.

Is this confirmed as accurate by the man himself?!

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk


Insofar as he confirms anything, yes. I'd say its at least as authoritative as the What Has Come Before sections in the books themselves.
Interesting.. :D

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