Earwa > The No-God
Which POV(s) are you looking forward to the most during TNG?
Francis Buck:
I definitely think the Daimos is low-key the most "powerful" sorcery, in terms of the raw potential it grants a practitioner, but it's compensated for by being easily the most dangerous. Even the Mandate and seemingly (probably for good reason) the Consult don't fuck with Daimotics, while we know that the mightier Ciphrang are unpredictable (see: Zioz and Kakaliol). And that's without bringing actual Gods into the equation, and we all saw what happened when even Kellhus can't control a "Ciphrang-God".
Two thoughts:
1. I wonder if the Gnosis actually can't even be applied to Daimotic sorcery. It sort of makes sense, considering the type of powers exhibited by the Ciphrang (Gods excluded) are very Anagogic -- vomiting pestilence or unleashing a wave of fiery wolves or flies, etc. Furthermore, given the terms used such as the Blind Necromancer for Iyokus and the use of "noomancy" as an alternate name for the Daimos all brings to mind the notion of how the Outside is a place of subjective/anthropomorphic/meta-psychological "innerspace". The Gnosis itself also seems increasingly like a more a "worldly" sorcery -- almost limitless power in the right hands, but a temporal one.
2. I personally don't think Kellhus is hiding in a head or anything (my theory/opinion on is this too insane for this post but I think Kellhus's current fate is "unique" and has to do with Seswatha and the metaphysics of the Gnosis and the Sacred Heart of Serwe and other crazy shit, I digress), however I do think it's interesting to consider the notion of Ciphrang being summoned even before the soul who went on to become that Ciphrang -- though I also think the greater Ciphrang are amalgamations of souls -- and that, for example, Zioz could have in fact been Achamian-as-Ciphrang (or someone else) and for this reason it did not kill him at the end TTT so much as kinda bring him away to safety in a weird way?
There's also the weird (very possibly meaningless) occurrence of the name "Hagazioz, Feathered-Wyrm of the Pit" in TUC. Can Ciphrang evolve or be "rewritten" in a manner similar to the Hundred? Is a Ciphrang always a Ciphrang? It's curious also that in all our Ciphrang POV's, they're never characterized as having any kind of atemporal viewpoint, in fact quite the opposite -- at least one of them from TTT literally recalls the "millions of years" (not exact but a big number) that it has been in the Outside.
Weird stuff as usual.
SmilerLoki:
--- Quote from: Francis Buck on October 16, 2018, 03:47:19 am ---1. I wonder if the Gnosis actually can't even be applied to Daimotic sorcery. It sort of makes sense, considering the type of powers exhibited by the Ciphrang (Gods excluded) are very Anagogic -- vomiting pestilence or unleashing a wave of fiery wolves or flies, etc.
--- End quote ---
I would consider the Gnosis and Anagogis to be two sets of tools (one more advanced, one less), as opposed to the Daimos, which is how the tools are used (on par with wards and Cants). I must note that so far we've only seen Ciphrang summoned by Anagogic sorcerers, and since summoning Ciphrang basically "folds" them into the world through the consciousness of the summoner, it's quite possible they appear Anagogic exactly because they were summoned by Anagogic means. In other words, we can't really establish what's the cause and what's the effect here.
--- Quote from: Francis Buck on October 16, 2018, 03:47:19 am ---The Gnosis itself also seems increasingly like a more a "worldly" sorcery -- almost limitless power in the right hands, but a temporal one.
--- End quote ---
I strongly disagree with this. Emotions are just as worldly, conditioned by objective experiences (at least if we believe Ajencis), as mathematical abstractions, created to classify and analyze those same experiences in a more efficient way.
--- Quote from: Francis Buck on October 16, 2018, 03:47:19 am ---It's curious also that in all our Ciphrang POV's, they're never characterized as having any kind of atemporal viewpoint, in fact quite the opposite -- at least one of them from TTT literally recalls the "millions of years" (not exact but a big number) that it has been in the Outside.
--- End quote ---
It might be simply an artifact of early writing. Ciphrang POVs always gave me a distinct otherworldly feeling, but Bakker got a lot better at evoking it in later books.
H:
--- Quote from: TLEILAXU on October 15, 2018, 10:45:55 pm ---Kellhus hanging from his own salted waist... I don't know, we're desperately lacking in new information.
--- End quote ---
I didn't present it as if it was a good idea, just something that would probably be possible.
TLEILAXU:
--- Quote from: Francis Buck on October 16, 2018, 03:47:19 am ---however I do think it's interesting to consider the notion of Ciphrang being summoned even before the soul who went on to become that Ciphrang -- though I also think the greater Ciphrang are amalgamations of souls -- and that, for example, Zioz could have in fact been Achamian-as-Ciphrang (or someone else) and for this reason it did not kill him at the end TTT so much as kinda bring him away to safety in a weird way?
--- End quote ---
I hate this idea!!! But I'm still confused as to why the Ciphrang did not kill Akka.
--- Quote from: Francis Buck on October 16, 2018, 03:47:19 am ---It's curious also that in all our Ciphrang POV's, they're never characterized as having any kind of atemporal viewpoint, in fact quite the opposite -- at least one of them from TTT literally recalls the "millions of years" (not exact but a big number) that it has been in the Outside.
Weird stuff as usual.
--- End quote ---
Forgot all about that. Mind finding the passage for me coz' I'm lazy? Sounds really interesting.
--- Quote from: H on October 16, 2018, 12:01:14 pm ---
--- Quote from: TLEILAXU on October 15, 2018, 10:45:55 pm ---Kellhus hanging from his own salted waist... I don't know, we're desperately lacking in new information.
--- End quote ---
I didn't present it as if it was a good idea, just something that would probably be possible.
--- End quote ---
Eh I don't think it's that bad, just wack, and also kinda plausible.
Also, what would a daimos+psukhe sorcerer be like? Maybe you can summon stronger demons without getting shrecked? Maybe Iyokus had a little bit of Psukhe in him due to the loss of his eyes, lending him the ability to command stronger demons than other sorcerers? Oh but the chanv...
H:
--- Quote from: TLEILAXU on October 16, 2018, 07:16:44 pm ---
--- Quote from: Francis Buck on October 16, 2018, 03:47:19 am ---however I do think it's interesting to consider the notion of Ciphrang being summoned even before the soul who went on to become that Ciphrang -- though I also think the greater Ciphrang are amalgamations of souls -- and that, for example, Zioz could have in fact been Achamian-as-Ciphrang (or someone else) and for this reason it did not kill him at the end TTT so much as kinda bring him away to safety in a weird way?
--- End quote ---
I hate this idea!!! But I'm still confused as to why the Ciphrang did not kill Akka.
--- End quote ---
Well, pragmatically, we can consider that if it could have, it would have. Since it didn't, it seems it couldn't. Probably because Akka's Skin Wards or other Wards were just strong enough. In light of this, it took the next best option, pick him up and go drop him in the sea. The Wards wouldn't protect him from drowning though, plausibly. IIRC though, the Ciphrang was just too wounded for the plan to work and plausibly it dies just short of the water, dropping Akka on the beach.
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