BFK, its more like if you have an infinite number of monkeys on an infinite number of typewriters, then over an infinite period of time you'll eventually get one that randomly reproduces shakespeare.W, I stand corrected. <mutters "smart-ass, superior, sumbitch....">
Apologies from the start, haven’t read this forum or posted in a few years. Just found out a month ago TGO was out and finished reading it … which brought me here. I forget quite a few important details like why Moenghus left Ishual and how the Thousand Fold Thought was learned by Kellus – his father shared it or he discovered on his own? Guess I’ll have to reread the books – one of the benefits of having a weak memory, art is a new experience every time you see it :)Well, you're a bit late to the release party, but hey, better late than never. Any interest in Zaudunyanicon 2017?
I read this whole thread all at once, not organically as people posted, so I may have missed some nuance to the discussion. I’m going to address several points across threads on this post for efficiency. I haven’t read everything, so apologies for redundancy of covering toiled ground.I think that's a perception problem that we have. People seem to want to read everything before they start, and so they create their own entrance barrier. Don't bother, most of us will have forgotten what was discussed previously any way.
That said, me thinks the measuring of millimeters to discover what Kellus’s true intention/direction may be misguided ( that or I’m simply not smart enough to see a massive hidden meaning beyond the thousands of supposed clues to the real game being played ).But the Devil is in the details! You might be right though. Its easy to get bogged down in the minute. It probably wont be until TUC and beyond that it becomes clear which details were important and which were tangential to the discussion.
Bakker is a demon, for sure, nothing he’s writing is just to describe the “beautiful” landscape. But a lot of it is to build intrigue, or at least so I think since I read these books at the edge of my seat excitedly crying aloud, “dude, no way!”, frequently.
Not the sharpest knife in the drawer, I look at this simplistically. Kellus was raised with the Logos to achieve a purely self-moving soul ( I think this is Bakker exploring "finding the bottom of the bag" as he addresses in another of his books … whereas in Neuropath that exploration was purely scientific, what would it be like for a sect of humans devoted to accomplishing the same thing via conscious exploration ).It certainly does seem like all of Bakker's works are interconnected in some way. He explores similar thoughts and themes, even through his short stories. I can't say I know what he's driving at, but there appears to be something there, just out of reach.
He’s sent away from the Dunyain to assassinate his father ( bit lost on the Survivor claiming no awareness of sorcery when Moënghus communicates to the Dunyain to send his son – sorcery – maybe they hushed that up or something ).To clarify, we are told in the beginning of TDTCB that everyone who recieved the dreams was basically killed - sent to the TTT to die in solitude so as to not pollute the others. It stands to reason then that only Kellhus and those polluted by the dreams knew about the incident. In addition, remember that Kellhus himself disregarded the existance, or even the possability, of sorcery until he was nearly killed by that Nonman in the woods. For all their intellect, the Dunyain can be pretty stupid, especially when confronted with something new.
He learns of the world and of sorcery. For some reason, he’s taken to it – or maybe simply following his directive, not allowing “the world” to deter him. His son, the Survivor, didn’t take to it well at all, quickly dismissing 2,000 years of Dunyain effort and concludes the Absolute is zero, etc. The Survivor does enjoy the benefit of getting an upshot on the status of his soul with The Eye and when he “turns green” he’s like, fuck it, I’m good to join the absolute/god and commits suicide. I detect a mild slap at those of us who believe in religious salvation for if we’re confident we’re saved, no point on risking damnation – if you really are “saved”, best thing that could happen to you is a quick death. I digress …Heh, never thought of it like that. Nice find ;) that's the kind of dark nod I'd expect from Bakker.
In short, I think Kellus set out to do what he was told – found out his father was powerful as all get out, potentially with sorcery ( unaware at first the water didn’t take for his pop, not one of the few ) and determined he needed massive power ( an army ) to overwhelm his father and kill him as directed. In the process/journey, he discovers ( again, don’t remember how ) the Thousand Fold Thought for which I took was the threading of the needle to save humanity from extinction. All that we’re seeing in the books is that path.Agreed - I'm with you up to about here.
He’s taken up the task to save humanity. Because even though we’re children in his eyes he still feels connected and responsible to protect us like a parent? Because he’s a mad fucker who thought it would be fun to drive an army through hell to defeat an unbeatable enemy to show the planet whose boss? Don’t know for sure,Eh, I'm not so sure. I don't see Kellhus as the altruistic type. To me, best case scenario, Kellhus is looking to usurp the Consult and have total dominion over Earwa. I don't subscribe to the "Kellhus is our lord and savior" rhetoric.
but I don’t identify with evidence brought up in this forum that he’s in cahoots with The Consult – this would be a massive rouse if that’s the case with the smell of cheap writing we see in television shows – to shock for shock’s sake, to surprise by drumming up something completely different with no clue to the viewer what’s coming. Pretty much anyone can do that … create a love story only to see the happy couple who traveled misunderstanding and tragedy together reaching a beautiful connection to only to be hacked up by a madman with a chainsaw in the end. It’s one thing to spin a yarn, quite another to fuck your readers over for the fun of it.I'd the thoroughly disappointed if we are blind-sided. Everything so far has been meticulously foreshadowed, whether or not we the readers realized it beforehand or after-the-fact. For what its worth, I don't think he's for the Consult either.
I think it's simpler - he sees an "end" and accepts his species evolutionary programming that the show should go on; maybe enjoying some of the hooks ( read: love ) that other humans indulge.
That all said, I do see Bakker’s writing teaching us something about the cost of us readers for “loving” or even rooting for Kellus – that loving those we see “higher” than ourselves is risking our own lives as well as our identity/humanity – simply, be careful dear reader in idolizing others. The lesson is to avoid being played and manipulated and for those “leaders” and “heroes” we love, we’re allowing them to use us – often not in our best interests. As long as Kellus is “working” for humanity, cool – if he deviates or violates that trajectory, don’t hesitate to kill him. I think that’s the lesson Kellus is giving Proyas, that his love of Kellus is holding him back, watering his ability to command the GO in Kellus’ absence. The rape was harsh, but maybe felt he had to do the non-man thing of marrying tragedy to an event so it will hit home with Proyas. Or maybe as metaphor as he breaks Proyas’ conditioning, “see what can happen when you put all your chips on one person” and/or just because I’m saving your hind sides from the furnace, doesn’t mean you should trust me.You've hit the nail on the head there - at least for me. The books demand that the reader thinks. Demands that you challenge your assumptions, and look inwardly and then externally for the Kellhus' around us. For our own Darkness, and our own enigmatic hero figures. A cautionary tale of the dangers of blind trust - both in our own truths and assumptions, and in those that our idols thrust upon us.
Don’t like guessing the end of stories, I enjoy being surprised. But appears guessing is what we do here in this forumThen don't. The last thing we need is people stepping in line around here. That's not what this is about - rules and decorum. Though I do advocate for participation, otherwise this place gets echo-y.
– so I’m going to take a stab at it. Kellus is having us ( humanity ) take out the Consult to strengthen us to overcome an even worse threat in the future. He sees us as too weak, too immature to endure or flourish. Feuding between each other has not strengthened us enough fend off extinction. An alien showed up to take us out 2,000 years ago and nearly succeeded. They’re still around, but haven’t struck again ( unknown, but I think The Consult was watching us self-destruct in lieu of them taking the risk of full frontal assault ). Seems like a good idea to take them out before the No-god shows up again. But more, it may well toughen us up and evolve. Remember, he sees “beyond” the thousand thoughts – maybe to a worse future than even The Consult poses. The madness arises from the mad effort it’s taken him to vet out so many possibilities, stressing the probability trance. The Consult is not the only threat to humanity – there’s seismic and cosmic events that can do us in. And with nuclear power, we become our own threat as well. Remember, Bakker is a fan of Herbert, and this walk-through hell to empower is straight Herbert philosophy.I like it. I'm glad you took the time to think that through and post it. Like I said above, I think you have a unique take on things (well, you and all the other silent masses). That'll give me something to chew on for awhile.
The honor you do me of taking the time to critique is amazing, thank you!Don't do that.
Not making this up, I posted this and walked the dog ... for the first time in decades, can't even remember when last time this happened, a car load of kids raced by yelling profanities out the window at me, just random losers bored. That happening JUST after I make this post a coincidence? I think not! Hee hee ...If this was TSA, I'd say there are no coincidences!
Lol, exactly.BFK, its more like if you have an infinite number of monkeys on an infinite number of typewriters, then over an infinite period of time you'll eventually get one that randomly reproduces shakespeare.W, I stand corrected. <mutters "smart-ass, superior, sumbitch...."
If this was TSA, I'd say there are no coincidences!
Don’t like guessing the end of stories, I enjoy being surprised. But appears guessing is what we do here in this forum – so I’m going to take a stab at it. Kellus is having us ( humanity ) take out the Consult to strengthen us to overcome an even worse threat in the future. He sees us as too weak, too immature to endure or flourish. Feuding between each other has not strengthened us enough fend off extinction. An alien showed up to take us out 2,000 years ago and nearly succeeded. They’re still around, but haven’t struck again ( unknown, but I think The Consult was watching us self-destruct in lieu of them taking the risk of full frontal assault ). Seems like a good idea to take them out before the No-god shows up again. But more, it may well toughen us up and evolve. Remember, he sees “beyond” the thousand thoughts – maybe to a worse future than even The Consult poses. The madness arises from the mad effort it’s taken him to vet out so many possibilities, stressing the probability trance. The Consult is not the only threat to humanity – there’s seismic and cosmic events that can do us in. And with nuclear power, we become our own threat as well. Remember, Bakker is a fan of Herbert, and this walk-through hell to empower is straight Herbert philosophy.
Given Bakker's philosophical concerns, I agree with H. on the Inchoroi.
Query: Are there REALLY only two surviving Inchoroi? I'm thinking there must be more.....I await TUC and our first real look at Golgotterath.
I'm sorry, but how do we know about the 6 Inchoroi surviving the Graft?Given Bakker's philosophical concerns, I agree with H. on the Inchoroi.
Query: Are there REALLY only two surviving Inchoroi? I'm thinking there must be more.....I await TUC and our first real look at Golgotterath.
I think there really are just two, honestly. Only 6 survived the Graft to see the Onta. What happened to the other 4 is not really known, but while I think that Inchoroi are technically immortal, it certainly seems that their physical forms are not immutable. Aurang would once have been tremendous and strong, yet even as to the False Sun, he is no where near as physically intimidating. It's unclear if that is a result of the Grafts, or just atrophy over time though.
For all we know though, perhaps Aurang and Aurax cannibalized the other 4, or attempted further Grafts on them which ended up killing them.
I'm sorry, but how do we know about the 6 Inchoroi surviving the Graft?Given Bakker's philosophical concerns, I agree with H. on the Inchoroi.
Query: Are there REALLY only two surviving Inchoroi? I'm thinking there must be more.....I await TUC and our first real look at Golgotterath.
I think there really are just two, honestly. Only 6 survived the Graft to see the Onta. What happened to the other 4 is not really known, but while I think that Inchoroi are technically immortal, it certainly seems that their physical forms are not immutable. Aurang would once have been tremendous and strong, yet even as to the False Sun, he is no where near as physically intimidating. It's unclear if that is a result of the Grafts, or just atrophy over time though.
For all we know though, perhaps Aurang and Aurax cannibalized the other 4, or attempted further Grafts on them which ended up killing them.
Is Aurang special amongst the Inchoroi in his ability to use Sorcery? Or were all Inchoroi, his brother included, amongst the Few?
The Inchoroi only possessed the Tekne when they arrived in Eärwa. All of the Inchoroi are the products of successive Graftings, species-wide rewrites of their genotype, meant to enhance various abilities and capacities, such as the ability to elicit certain sexual responses from their victims (via pheromone locks), or the capacity to ‘tune sensations’ and so explore the vagaries and vicissitudes of carnal pleasure. The addition of anthropomorphic vocal apparatuses is perhaps the most famous of these enhancements.
The Grafting that produced Aurang and Aurax was also devised during the age-long C no-Inchoroi Wars, one of many failed attempts to biologically redesign themselves to overcome the Nonmen. But they had been outrun by their debauchery by this time, and had lost any comprehensive understanding of the Tekne. The Graftings had become a matter of guesswork, more likely to kill than enhance those who received them. The Inchoroi filled the Wells of the Aborted with their own in those days.
Aurang and Aurax are two of six who survived the attempt to Graft the ability to see the onta.
That's a pretty interesting take on things, and I'm not sure I've seen anyone put it quite like that. Bravo - you should post more :D
Quote from: WilshireThat's a pretty interesting take on things, and I'm not sure I've seen anyone put it quite like that. Bravo - you should post more :D
<cough....cough>
I've been saying for 2 years now that Kellhus is being driven more and more by emotion, and I thought TGO offered some great examples.....yet, this is the first you've heard this? No offense TaoHorror, I count you as one of the smart ones. Its just me and you, mind you.
Yet, every time that dann H posts he seems to convince me otherwise. H, he makes a very good argument.
Man, its not all about you sometimes. TH's position differs specifically and explicitly from your own. Don't steal credit :P , though yes there are similarities. (and regardless, lets encourage participation, not exclude it)Quote from: WilshireThat's a pretty interesting take on things, and I'm not sure I've seen anyone put it quite like that. Bravo - you should post more :D
<cough....cough>
I've been saying for 2 years now that Kellhus is being driven more and more by emotion, and I thought TGO offered some great examples.....yet, this is the first you've heard this? No offense TaoHorror, I count you as one of the smart ones. Its just me and you, mind you.
Yet, every time that dann H posts he seems to convince me otherwise. H, he makes a very good argument.
Also, as far as flame-claiming goes, I suggested on ZTS in my original, teenage naivety, that TAE would be about a Kellhus who was once Dunyain but became a man ;).
Also, as far as flame-claiming goes, I suggested on ZTS in my original, teenage naivety, that TAE would be about a Kellhus who was once Dunyain but became a man ;).
:P
What did he know... ;)
Not that I am fully buying it, really...
Lol - he knew basically a little less fuck all than it does now. Which is still fuck all ;).
Lol - he knew basically a little less fuck all than it does now. Which is still fuck all ;).
Old Me figured the the No-God was simply just a tool. New Me knows that. So I guess we are getting somewhere, even if that is still the middle of nowhere, haha.
I was not speaking to the whole post, sorry if that was what was thought. Just the small bit about saving humans because of emotions, or love as TH put it.
I was not speaking to the whole post, sorry if that was what was thought. Just the small bit about saving humans because of emotions, or love as TH put it.
Ah, if you highlighted that above I didn't see it. I rarely read threads in sequence anymore.
I was not speaking to the whole post, sorry if that was what was thought. Just the small bit about saving humans because of emotions, or love as TH put it.
Ah, if you highlighted that above I didn't see it. I rarely read threads in sequence anymore.
Wilshire was quoting different sections of TaoHorror's post and I just quoted his response to that specific part of the post. I meant no harm by it.
H ( is that a Hannibal reference? ): "a New System is needed" ... why would he conclude that if he didn't care? A new system for whom? The people he doesn't care about? Altuism is not necessarily the same thing as "liking". It appears he at least likes humanity, otherwise, why bother? The joy of power over the ants? That seems beneath him. But remember, K felt empathy for the defective he was studying and then consciously cast it aside "deciding" it was weakness to feel for a "defective" ... it appears he was born with empathy - did the horror of the world kill it? Does he try to kill it off, himself? Can he ( or anyone ) kill off their emotions or do our emotional state simply changes when we try to kill it? If you're suggesting elevating humans to thwart the gods he hates, now that is interesting.
I still get confused about what the Consult actually are - I think I learned from my posts 3 years ago that they are humans/magi who teamed with the aliens and learned Tekne and now don't age and therefore have taken up the charge with the aliens to rid Earwa of humans ... please feel free to correct me on this, I'm still unclear.
Think the book stated "hundreds" of shriekers perished in the thousand thousand halls ... seems like an incredible blow to the Consult to lose so many. Perhaps Kellus lured the Consult to Ishual whereby a battle with the Dunyain would whittle down their numbers to make them weaker, easier to defeat? Even if smart tactics, K had no intention of returning to the Dunyain - at the very least shirking his homeland if not outright ridding himself of the pursuit of the Absolute. Either there are bigger fish to fry or he came to same realization his son did, just reacted differently to the realization, which makes sense since their first interaction with the "real" world were so different ( K met hordes of humans, but didn't encounter the Eye for years ( maybe not at all, not sure if he knew of Mimara's Eye ), while Survivor only met 2 who were hellbent on killing him, but meets the Eye right off the bat ). Circumstance plays a bigger role in our identity than we would own up to or like it to have.
Credit where credit is due, Tao; it was Madness who came up with the "Dûnyain --> man" idea.
On your point. It's not really that he doesn't care. My theory is not that he doesn't have emotions, or that he doesn't consider them, but rather that they are all just data to him. This isn't really how we work, but it is how he works. He doesn't just do something because it "seems right" or because he "feels it is right." He simply does what must be done, because it must be done. Sometimes, that is in line with how he feels. Sometimes it is not.
Oh, there's someone in this forum called "Madness"
I'm just pointing out how you're contradicting yourself here. You say he has no emotions, then go on to say that sometimes what he does, aligns with what he feels. Lol.
I get what your saying, Kellhus is indeed the tough nut to crack.
Oh, there's someone in this forum called "Madness" ... I thought Beard was saying he said it from his own madness ( as in insanity ), maybe an idea he had but now thinking it was a bad one.Lmfao! That is hilarious, Tao!
I am one confused mofo, thanks for bearing with me! I'm getting there.
We always go back and forth on this and I don't think we'll really ever get an actual answer to the question though.
We always go back and forth on this and I don't think we'll really ever get an actual answer to the question though.
Eh, all in good fun. Actually while I think my side of the argument is more of what I want. There's clues there, but I dont think we're to far apart to begin with. Its a little detail that's seperates why he is doing what he's doing.
TH, we are indeed kindred spirits. I've mentioned many times on this forum about when the sorcerers stepped into the skies at that same point as horrifying. It was the first time reading a book that I got scared. Scared isn't the right word though, it definitely made me know I was reading something truly different.
So many parts of the book touch a part of your soul and it sticks. The epilogue of TWP when they are questioning about "WHO ARE THE DUNYAIN?", is gut wrenching. When Cnaüir rapes Proyas, I was at once jubilant and sick to my stomach. Bakker is like no other author I've ever read, point blank. It makes finding something to read quite the challenge.
Ah, thank you! I've already pre-ordered/paid for my copy from Amazon, says it's being released in July.
Not to get all sappy on everyone - but Bakker's descriptions of the "first" apocalypse have effected me, his description of horror is so much more powerful than anything I've read, including Herbert and Simmons, which screams a lot. The dragons dropping from the skies, snatching up humans was really horrifying to me. This idea of humans being so defenseless to something not human ... at risk of exposing my species conceit, but it's unnatural. Bakker takes the next step of a species overwhelming us, not just a mono a mono fight ( like a single human with no tools/weapons being overcome by a tiger for example ), but all of humanity, "naked", before something so powerful. And the terribleness of magic ( that fight with the Slvendi in the first book was just frightening, imagining people "walking" into the sky with the light shining out of the mouths and eyes ) - the mass MURDER of such a thing. This is the most plausible take on fantasy I've read - for dragons and magic would be the stuff of horror, not some interesting cool thing. Other books have people riding dragons and teaching magic in schools to children ... no ... it would be a fucked up nightmare.
I was a wreck finishing TTT, laid to waste, dazed but wild with a child's like fun/joy.
Shit Moose, yes Conphas in TTT I believe. To teach him a lesson. Thanks for the correction.
This is actually my favourite series of all time and i wish someone would do a youtube channel like Secrets of the Citadel (ASOIAF) for our friends in Earwa.
I cannot wait for TUC and many of the answers we have been seeking. At the same time i hope we don't get everything. This world works because we have actually learned so little and had to really earn what we have.
I didn't mean for it to sound like a correction. I actually thought i may have missed something and that's always a concern with this series.
Would it be accurate ( or near the mark ) to say the origin of the Consult is another Bakker warning to us readers to not be so quick to damn others? If I understand it correctly, the whole sale slaughter of humanity is to thwart damnation - by aliens, by non-men and even by men/sorcerers. Damnation of sorcerers brought hell to Earwa ( read: Earth ), made real with the help of some curious George's ( sorcerers wanting to explore The Aporos ). Another warning as well ensuring curiosity doesn't morph into monstrosity. What is unknown to me is if Chorae kills Sorcerers of Aporos as it does others ( interesting stratagem to design the weapon which defeats yourself ).
H, this is hands down the best and most concise summation of the Eärwan predicament. Very well said. Bravo!Would it be accurate ( or near the mark ) to say the origin of the Consult is another Bakker warning to us readers to not be so quick to damn others? If I understand it correctly, the whole sale slaughter of humanity is to thwart damnation - by aliens, by non-men and even by men/sorcerers. Damnation of sorcerers brought hell to Earwa ( read: Earth ), made real with the help of some curious George's ( sorcerers wanting to explore The Aporos ). Another warning as well ensuring curiosity doesn't morph into monstrosity. What is unknown to me is if Chorae kills Sorcerers of Aporos as it does others ( interesting stratagem to design the weapon which defeats yourself ).
I think near the mark (actually a pun, considering your speculation hear the end there) that the Consult is yet another post-human allegory. I do beleive that both the Inchoroi and Nonmen are also post-human allegories as well, something of a look at some of the dangers of supplanting "natural" boundaries with technological ones.
There is more though, because one of the biggest themes of the whole Second Apocalypse series is the role of Meaning. Note that I capitalize it there, because it isn't just meaning as in a definition or explanation, but rather the way in which the world, the universe, is structured. Mimara gives us a look at the disembodied, "objective" meaning through the Eye, but even that raises questions about how and why the Cubit is as it is. Where does that Meaning come from?
Kellhus takes something of the role of the "hero" here, in the way that he embodies something of a Humanistic view, which appeals to (most) of our modern sensibilities, something of a seeming Meaning for Humans, by Humans. But Kellhus also embodies a lot of ambiguity and it's often unclear what his ultimate aims really are. The Consult are pretty clear in wanting a destruction of greater Meaning though, since they want a shut world where consequences can be directly mitigated, where pleasure, power and whim are rewarded, if not at least unpunished. What Kellhus really wants is not as clear, but TGO gives us a hint that it is in some way denying the 100 their "harvest" of the Damned.
So, how then does Kellhus and the Consult differ? That's what remains to be seen. I guess the "simplest" dichotomy would be the Consult want to end all Meaning, where Kellhus want to forge new Meaning.
H, this is hands down the best and most concise summation of the Eärwan predicament. Very well said. Bravo!
Beard! Stop pawing for H's dick - it's unbecoming and a sin - don't want to see your fat sizzling far below while I'm mauled by hotties up above, brother!
Would it be accurate ( or near the mark ) to say the origin of the Consult is another Bakker warning to us readers to not be so quick to damn others? If I understand it correctly, the whole sale slaughter of humanity is to thwart damnation - by aliens, by non-men and even by men/sorcerers. Damnation of sorcerers brought hell to Earwa ( read: Earth ), made real with the help of some curious George's ( sorcerers wanting to explore The Aporos ). Another warning as well ensuring curiosity doesn't morph into monstrosity. What is unknown to me is if Chorae kills Sorcerers of Aporos as it does others ( interesting stratagem to design the weapon which defeats yourself ).
I think near the mark (actually a pun, considering your speculation hear the end there) that the Consult is yet another post-human allegory. I do beleive that both the Inchoroi and Nonmen are also post-human allegories as well, something of a look at some of the dangers of supplanting "natural" boundaries with technological ones.
There is more though, because one of the biggest themes of the whole Second Apocalypse series is the role of Meaning. Note that I capitalize it there, because it isn't just meaning as in a definition or explanation, but rather the way in which the world, the universe, is structured. Mimara gives us a look at the disembodied, "objective" meaning through the Eye, but even that raises questions about how and why the Cubit is as it is. Where does that Meaning come from?
Kellhus takes something of the role of the "hero" here, in the way that he embodies something of a Humanistic view, which appeals to (most) of our modern sensibilities, something of a seeming Meaning for Humans, by Humans. But Kellhus also embodies a lot of ambiguity and it's often unclear what his ultimate aims really are. The Consult are pretty clear in wanting a destruction of greater Meaning though, since they want a shut world where consequences can be directly mitigated, where pleasure, power and whim are rewarded, if not at least unpunished. What Kellhus really wants is not as clear, but TGO gives us a hint that it is in some way denying the 100 their "harvest" of the Damned.
So, how then does Kellhus and the Consult differ? That's what remains to be seen. I guess the "simplest" dichotomy would be the Consult want to end all Meaning, where Kellhus want to forge new Meaning.
Beard! Stop pawing for H's dick - it's unbecoming and a sin - don't want to see your fat sizzling far below while I'm mauled by hotties up above, brother!Damn! Called out by Tao!
You expect us to believe you're ACTUALLY a comic musician? The cab driver thing is even suspect, but ok. Upon second thought, I'm sure your music is quite funny. What bullshit instrument you claim to know how to play, the harmonica?The harmonica, as far as I can tell, is fairly difficult to play well, especially in a blues style. Lots of note-bending and over-blowing.
Warmly,
The Horror of the Tao
As for cabdriving, why would you doubt my claim? Cab drivers need to be somewhat agile and quick-witted, qualities also found in musicians and comics.
You know something, Beard? If you have it in you ( not a challenge, we all have busy lives - meaning if you have the time/interest ) and Bakker approves, it would be cool to have you ( with your gift for humor/street language ) write a companion piece to the PON series which would provide clarity on both what we're supposed to know and what is supposed to be mystery with these books. It would be fun, funny and provide much needed perspective for us lower minds such as myself.WHAT?! TSA is the funniest series ever. Filled with humour, Bakker is not gifted with the art?!!! Huh? Don't Akka and co literally roll on the floor laughing at Kellhus' jokes in TWP?
For starters - biggest problem I had with the books is I made the mistake of trying to pronounce the names of peoples and places myself. It would have been a big help if there was a pronunciation glossary with the books. You could write the names phonetically in the companion. When I read the books again, I'm just going to create pet names for everyone so when I see it, I don't slow down wondering "is that the same person as before, etc". For the first 2 books, I thought Ishroi and the Inchoroi where the same ( both Non-men ) ... didn't realize until the 3rd book the Inchoroi were aliens. I know, I'm dumb, right? But I bet there are others who encountered similar difficulty following the story. That said, it's not a criticism. I love that Bakker doesn't hold the hand of the reader, yielding some beautiful writing. Like when Cleric becomes possessed in Cil-Ajus - another writer would say he was possessed - but Bakker describes as "dons like finery", which was a really cool way of putting it. So the translation the reader makes from description to understanding is wicked cool/fun ( and makes me feel smart when I do it successfully ) ... just struggled with the names and apparently too often failed to grasp what he was getting at. Like the description of Seswatha checking out the Ark completely lost me ... just too hard to follow, maybe the extreme nature of the thing was too hard to understand from mere words.
If you're interested, you could take a stab at "summarizing" the timeline posted online with your funny way of putting things - like ( forgive me, I do not have your talents, this just an example ) "ship with big horns crashes into Earwa, turns earth into lava, cools off, aliens jump out and tell non-men, "fuck you!", no-men reply, "No, not fuck me ... FUCK YOU!", they fight, non-men win, but aliens trick non-men ... ". That was way too general, would need a few dates in there with more detail, etc.
Anyways, think your comedy could translate into comic writing as well is all I'm saying. Appears you're taking a stab it already with your aewarian comic contest. Not trying to drag you into doing something you don't want to do, just thought I would throw it out there. If you're not into it, then maybe Bakker ( if he reads this stuff ) can get off his ass and write it himself ( doesn't have to be funny if he's not gifted with the art, but a "history" - something more robust than the glossary at the end of TTT ).
- TH
So, started reread, just witnessed the horror of Kiyuth with the sorcerers, what struck me more was Cnaüir's will to live. Its what I love about him, a man that always picks his self back up. Inrau, what did he find in the Shriah's apartments? Clearly something related to the SS, as it had him questioning going back to the Mandate. Also, Onkis, she is way more important in the pantheon of the 100 then most think. More thoughts later.
So, started reread, just witnessed the horror of Kiyuth with the sorcerers, what struck me more was Cnaüir's will to live. Its what I love about him, a man that always picks his self back up. Inrau, what did he find in the Shriah's apartments? Clearly something related to the SS, as it had him questioning going back to the Mandate. Also, Onkis, she is way more important in the pantheon of the 100 then most think. More thoughts later.
Well, there was that one time when Cniur grabs Kellhus' sword, brings it to his own neck and begs him to kill him ...
Not contesting your overall point, just pointing out it wasn't always so as he went mad to the near point of suicide by K in The Carathay. But maybe that was a manipulation, sensing K was coming for him with his best defense surrendering so nakedly.
So, not to derail a thread that's been derailed a couple times, lol. THIS TAOHORROR'S THREAD!!!!! But, to earlier post up thread on H's "culmination theory" on The TT, I don't think Moe ever intended to take over the holy war and kill off Kellhus. I mean think on it. The Inrithi would win, that's the plan, easiest way to Unite the Three-Seas. Also, how could Moe and Powerful Cish then take control of an Inrithi lead Holy War. Yes, the TT was meant to outlive the incubator, but doesn't mean Moe didn't have a long plan. I think it would be great to see Moe in TUC in some capacity, preferably, methinks it will be on the side of the Consult. I think he was already seated by their meeting and he is a lying liar that lies. It would be a great ling play.
Well, I do think that Moe had a long-term plan, even if that plan was never going to work. As I said, Moe was just wrong on too many things to survive the high-stakes game he was playing at. Even though he was smart and powerful enough to accomplish what he did, there was going to be a limit. That limit just happened to be Kellhus and Kyudea.
Ol' Moe, dead as a door nail, eh?
Ol' Moe, dead as a door nail, eh?I've never understood how the "Moënghus lives!" theories get past the clear evidence of his death-by-Chorae. But as a way to while away the early summer days, I'll bite: What's the case for a living Moënghus?
Ol' Moe, dead as a door nail, eh?I've never understood how the "Moënghus lives!" theories get past the clear evidence of his death-by-Chorae. But as a way to while away the early summer days, I'll bite: What's the case for a living Moënghus?
I really like the ol' Moe crackpots. Especially yours, MSJ. But I have gave up, they never ever happen. Remember the Meppa = Cnaiür + Möenghus thing? Good times.Ol' Moe, dead as a door nail, eh?I've never understood how the "Moënghus lives!" theories get past the clear evidence of his death-by-Chorae. But as a way to while away the early summer days, I'll bite: What's the case for a living Moënghus?
Not living, oh no! In the Outside running the Thousandfold Thought. Remember, in every instance, Moe and Kellhus are described as identical. He just got his eyes back and grew some hair, another long play. Seriously, I'm pulling shit out of nowhere, BK.
I really like the ol' Moe crackpots. Especially yours, MSJ. But I have gave up, they never ever happen. Remember the Meppa = Cnaiür + Möenghus thing? Good times.
Ol' Moe, dead as a door nail, eh?I've never understood how the "Moënghus lives!" theories get past the clear evidence of his death-by-Chorae. But as a way to while away the early summer days, I'll bite: What's the case for a living Moënghus?
Wilshire, he is still not dead somewhere his soul resides in the Outside, could be whistling Dixie in one of the Gods ear for christ sake, you know. No one here is reeady to give up on Moe.This twist has some recent justification in text and I find it more acceptable :)