The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The White-Luck Warrior => Topic started by: Ciogli on June 07, 2013, 01:52:03 am

Title: Mishmash
Post by: Ciogli on June 07, 2013, 01:52:03 am

As the title suggests this will be a random jumble of thoughts. I think the Unholy Consult will center around the struggle for Dagliash for most of the book, but they will prevail and hopefully meet up with a Nonmen embassy. They will travel through Agongorea and at the gates of Golgotterath they will be destroyed, and the No-God will walk again, Kellhuss seems destined to not survive this book. With small bands of the Ordeal scattered across the North, battling and seeking a refuge. The majority of the sorcerors will survive, yet be stuck like the men of the Ordeal. Mainly because I do not think humanity will be able to survive the loss of so many of its sorcerous practitioners. The Niom will yield consequences, Sorweel looks to be some sort of sacrifice by Kellhuss to convince the Cunuroi, he no longer has any proximity to Kellhuss and his chorea has been given away. His connection with Yatwer may be suspected, and as the Cunuroi do not worship the spiritual agencies in the Outside, the fact Yatwer wars against Kellhuss may convince them of his mission. The Zeumi prince would seem to be a better choice as an enemy than a so called Believer-King, Moenghuss conversation from the reading would indicate that the siblings  are aware that he is special. I suspect that Serwa with her Cunuroi and Dunyain blood would be able to bear a Nonman child to term, but that would seem to take to much time with the awakening of the No-God immanent.

With the only major school in the south being the Mbimayu and others in Zeum, the other schools leaving only training cadres behind, if the Ordeal is destroyed the Zeumi will take a leading role in the 2nd apocalypse. Going off my Kellhuss=Feanor, Maithainet=Fingolfin, and Finarfin= in Ishual, in the sil it is the children of Fingolfin who rule the elven kingdoms, so maybe Maitha left his brood somewhere in Sumna who will take charge during the apocalypse. I think Achamian and Mimara are Beran and Luthien, and the child will have a very important role in the apocalypse. The avalanche that saved them was very suspicious, the Dunyain still live although maybe much reduced. Finarfin leads them, who may be Kell's full brother, the idea of a pack of little Dunyain children following Achamian through the North is delicious. Because the 2nd Apocalypse may be a decades long struggle the children may come to the fore in the third series. A possible Serwa and Cunuroi child may be possible. Kellhuss seems to be preparing Proyas for the eventuality of his death, and the burden of leading men in the darkness to come.

Now my even more random thoughts. I wish Bakker had made a few different choices for the Aspect Emperor series. Namely that because Maitha was one of the Few Kellhuss would have taught him the Gnosis, and have him found a new School, a School of sorcerer priests for the faith. A  sorcerous Shriah and his own School on the heels of the Nova Arcananum would have been awesome. They would have travelled with the Ordeal into the North. Secondly Kellhuss would have had more children, a royal wife from each kingdom to cement his rule, and the sane children would become commanders in the Ordeal. This way Kelmommas could have released Inrilitas on a lark and the chaos that would ensue across the empire would have been great to see.

I have wondered what race the Emwama are, in my mind they look native American. The ruins Kel fights Mek inside of in the prologue might be Siol as there is no other large mountains in their kingdom, which I think encompassed all of Kuniuri to the Hethanta's , with Agongorea and Aorsi being Viri, the site of Dagliash is their capital city, and the Three-Seas controlled by Cil-Aujas. The Cunuroi kingdoms are huge compared to men, 9 High Mansions would cover the continent. I hope we get a map of the kingdoms before the Fall, maybe when the book about Cujara-Cinmoi is written.

In trying to create my own I appreciate the subtle and detailed greatness of Earwa even more, prodigious scale and breathtaking details. To get a sense of scale when I first started, I looked at the appendix and counted 1068 entries. Writing details for my world for a couple months, I finally counted and their were 136, I was despondent for he rest of the day. Now with the Aspect-Emperor, a third series, and the Ancient North which he said was as heavily detailed as the Three-Seas, that number may double, and my pride is suitably crushed again. On the goodside potential series about the Fall and the First Apocalypse would keep Earwa in print for decades.

 Rereading The Way of Kings, although Roshar is not as good as Earwa there is still a sense of great wonder when I read about it, although there is a curious sense of heaviness missing from it hat Earwa has. Maybe it is the meticulous details and the lack of sentiment. A couple times I thought "'I wish Bakker was writing this world". But there are a couple of the things Sanderson does better, the Shardplate and Shardblades, I sat there wishing the Nonmen had invented these things in their great wars and that Men had discovered a trifle of them. Like that knife Mimara found in the Coffers, if made into a great sword.

Title: Re: Mishmash
Post by: Madness on June 07, 2013, 01:22:39 pm

Lol - love it, Ciogli.

Great thoughts. I really need to spend another round with the Silmarillion.

I moved the thread as I'm trying to restrict the current speculation to WLW and Misc. Chatter - TUC is now "reply-only," with the Ch. 1 excerpt and Ch. 3 excerpt summary being the main topics of consideration.

Obviously, people can participate in the Topics from Misc. Chatter & The Unholy Consult (http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=461.0) in that sub-forum and we can move all these thread to TUC (but I think the consensus was to maintain TUC subforum's virginal attributes until... *holding breath* ;)).

Anyhow, I shall return after I think on your words, Ciogli.

Title: Re: Mishmash
Post by: Wilshire on June 07, 2013, 04:43:52 pm

At the rate the Bakker writes, there is not enough time in all the world for him to flesh out the 10,000+ years of Earwa history. He could write forever and I'd buy every book :P.

Good thoughts on TUC. The more I think about it, the more I tend to lean in the direction of your thinking. There is just no way that there will be some kind of meaningful resolution at the end of the series. At the end of PoN, Akka is exiled, the war with the Consult begins, and the war only just barely ends. At the end of AE there will likely be some kind of similarly non-resolute ending. I think that will likely be at Golgotterath.

I wonder if Bakker will end TUC like TTT. With Kellhus running around some place that is not the final battle. Like whilst everyone is battling for Daugliash, he will be snooping around Golgotterath. I dunno.

It seems that Kellhus will for sure not be with the Ordeal by the end. Though whether this means he will be dead, I remain skeptical. Joining the Consult, becoming the no-god, etc etc.

It would make an interesting end to have the Ordeal obliterated at the Horns, and then start off the next series with the moribund survivors running back to the Three Seas. I don't think that Mog will walk at the end of TUC. I think it more likely that the Consult will 'win' and continue their work to resurrect them, and in the mean time, start working on there 144k thing. Kind of the the Cunoi-Inchoroi wars, where the No-God didn't show up till the end. That would give us enough time for new babies to grow up and become  characters in the next series. Say, another 20 years time jump, and pregnant Serwe will have a 20 year old half-nonman baby.

I also love the thought of dunyain children following around Akka. The poor guy. What could be a worse fate for him? Being forced again into the teacher role, schooling the kin of his most hated enemy. The Whore would love that.

Title: Re: Mishmash
Post by: Baztek on June 07, 2013, 08:39:07 pm

I feel that TUC's climax, much like Darkness', will be a quiet expository scene about the universe's metaphysics. I think Bakker is gonna try and get at the thematic heart of the books, which (I feel) is a meditation on objective morality and how helpless we are in the face of awesome forces. Sure, there might be a battle at Golgotterath/Dagliash, but except for being curious about where Bakker's twisted imagination is taking us next, I'm not excited for the battle scenes in particular.

That said, I think now would be a good time to remind everyone about how fucking metal the last battle in WLW is. Goddamn.

Title: Re: Mishmash
Post by: Ciogli on June 08, 2013, 12:45:21 am

That is  why the embassy of the Nonmen is so crucial, they have been sorcerously exploring the metaphysics of creation for ten millennia. Their memories of the Fall and all that history is going to crazy. As an amateur history buff the immense amount of history in this series is a great strength. Looking at a wallpaper for GOW III I see the gods in flying chariots, the Nonmen fighting in flying chariots should be epic. On first reading the appendix the mentions of Nonmen fighting in chariots seemed strange for such an advanced people, but flying fuckin chariots is totally different!

Title: Re: Mishmash
Post by: Cüréthañ on June 08, 2013, 02:17:26 am

I doubt you will see advancments from the Nonmen.
This is epic fantasy, after all.  One of the hallmarks of which is a lack of technological (or magical) progression.
The rest of the social systems are stagnant.  Perhaps this is enforced by the gods or the peculiarities of entrenched and persistant objective meaning.
4000 years and things have remained pretty much the same, and the Nonmen are not concerned with advancing knowledge but rather halting its erosion.

I rather doubt that a race of halfwits who can barely remember who they are and are increasingly subject to murder and betrayal as a means of remembering their past are developing new permutations of meaning.  (Not to mention they are completely infiltrated by beings dedicated to their extermination.)

Only the Dunyain are new and Khellus represents modernisation.

Title: Re: Mishmash
Post by: Madness on June 08, 2013, 06:50:38 am

Technological level (http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=746.0).

Title: Re: Mishmash
Post by: Ciogli on November 22, 2013, 06:25:42 pm

Madness has it been confirmed anywhere that there will be a 20 year jump after TUC? After Bakker finishes the book I hope there will be more Atrocity Tales until the book is released.

Title: Re: Mishmash
Post by: Wilshire on November 22, 2013, 07:09:58 pm

Quote from: Ciogli on November 22, 2013, 06:25:42 pm

Madness has it been confirmed anywhere that there will be a 20 year jump after TUC? After Bakker finishes the book I hope there will be more Atrocity Tales until the book is released.

I know you didn't ask me, but as far as I know he has said almost nothing about TSTSNBN. Any question that treads close he won't answer.
 Which is to say that anything post TUC is a mystery.

Title: Re: Mishmash
Post by: Triskele on November 22, 2013, 07:29:03 pm

Nice random thoughts, Ciogoli.  This is a perfect place for me to throw out a question I'd considered starting a thread for which is basically that I want predictions about the Three Seas storylines in the next book.

Part of why I want to ask is that I have practically no idea what's going to happen.

Contrast that to the Great Ordeal and Slog storylines:  we don't know exactly how things will play out, obviously, but it seems we have a good general idea.  The Great Ordeal will continue its march into the ancient north.  Sorweel, Lil' Moe, and Serwa will go to Ishterebinth, Akka and Mimara will explore Ishual before likely moving on, etc...

I'm hugely invested in the details here, but it seems like all of those bits of framework are fairly safe assumptions. 

But what's going to happen w/ the Three Seas?  I have no idea.  Does Fanayal take Momemn?  If so, what happens to Esmenet?  What does creepy little Kel do?  What is the significance of Meppa?  What conclusions for Zeum does Malo come to?  Do the Hundred get more involved?  Does the Three Seas start to culturally move on as if the Great Ordeal doesn't exist?

Title: Re: Mishmash
Post by: Cüréthañ on November 22, 2013, 10:56:03 pm

Quote from: Triskele on November 22, 2013, 07:29:03 pm

This is a perfect place for me to throw out a question I'd considered starting a thread for which is basically that I want predictions about the Three Seas storylines in the next book.

(http://i41.tinypic.com/a599wj.jpg)

Title: Re: Mishmash
Post by: Madness on November 23, 2013, 02:11:13 am

Quote from: Ciogli on November 22, 2013, 06:25:42 pm

Madness has it been confirmed anywhere that there will be a 20 year jump after TUC? After Bakker finishes the book I hope there will be more Atrocity Tales until the book is released.

I think Wilshire covered the whispers.

But if we use Herbert's Dune as an analogous framework:

Prince of Nothing is Dune, Dune Messiah, and Children of Dune; the rise of Leto as Kellhus.

The Aspect-Emperor is God-Emperor; What Leto/Kellhus actually does, how he exercises his agency through Empire.

TSTSNBN is Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse: Dune.

I expect a gap. The benjuka rules will most certainly change ;).

Quote from: Triskele on November 22, 2013, 07:29:03 pm

I'm hugely invested in the details here, but it seems like all of those bits of framework are fairly safe assumptions. 

But what's going to happen w/ the Three Seas?  I have no idea.  Does Fanayal take Momemn?  If so, what happens to Esmenet?  What does creepy little Kel do?  What is the significance of Meppa?  What conclusions for Zeum does Malo come to?  Do the Hundred get more involved?  Does the Three Seas start to culturally move on as if the Great Ordeal doesn't exist?

Hmm... since you're asking here are some stream-of-nerdanels:

Malowebi figures out who Meppenghus is.
Fanayal sieges Momemn and the White-Luck Warrior fights the Fanim (possibly, recapturing Psatma).
Meppa preaches Fanimry to the huddled masses of Momemn.
The fire rises (by which I mean the Cults make their move).
Kellhus' agents in Momemn are revealed.
The White-Luck Warrior protects Esmenet (possibly dying in the process).
As the book ends in defeat for one or the other, the No-God will rise, binding all humankind together.

And what Curethan said.

Or alternatively: TUC will be the equivalent of a cross between Powerthirst Re-Domination (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-3qncy5Qfk) and the Ferd Fteenthousand (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8P5vGcf-NU).

Title: Re: Mishmash
Post by: locke on November 23, 2013, 08:52:32 am

(click to show/hide)

Or we could take Duke Leto to equal moenghus.  Kellhus to be Paul, the seeming protagonist/prodigy.  and Kelmomas to be Leto II, the fucked up insane guy who outdoes his father and goes to extremes no one can fathom in his quest.

Title: Re: Mishmash
Post by: Madness on November 23, 2013, 02:00:05 pm

(click to show/hide)

I do like the idea of Kelmomas being Leto II but honestly there seem to be too many corroborations of Moenghus/Paul, especially, then Kellhus/Leto.

Hell, wasn't it you who mentioned the Outside sandworming Kellhus at the Circumfix like Leto II was sandtrouted ;)?

Title: Re: Mishmash
Post by: Triskele on November 23, 2013, 05:55:47 pm

*Has only read first Dune book...must hide

Title: Re: Mishmash
Post by: Madness on November 23, 2013, 09:03:58 pm

Sorry, Trisk.

But do us all a favour, please, and read all of Frank Herbert's Dune books :).

Title: Re: Mishmash
Post by: Triskele on November 23, 2013, 10:52:54 pm

Quote from: Madness on November 23, 2013, 09:03:58 pm

Sorry, Trisk.

But do us all a favour, please, and read all of Frank Herbert's Dune books :).

Veering off topic, but I was not all that impressed with the first one.  I think I have to be fair to Herbert and realize that it was written decades ago and was probably incredible for its time, but I didn't get too strong of an urge to read on.  I do have a copy of book 2, so perhaps I'll summon the courage to persist.

It does certainly seem that one ought to know both their Tolkien and their Herbert to fully appreciate Bakker.

Title: Re: Mishmash
Post by: Cüréthañ on November 24, 2013, 12:01:53 am

@ Trisk, I don't think so.
 
People just like drawing parallels and using analogies. 

Nonmen are elves, Shae is Saruman, Skin-spies are face dancers etc etc. 

These analogs don't really give a better understanding - they might be useful descriptions for those more familiar with the later, but any extra information they transmit is far more likely to diverge from authorial intent than form derived insight.

I suspect authors very rarely base their plotting off the influences that go into their world building.   OTOH if Akka destroys Mog by throwing a ring into a volcano I shall retract this.

That said, God Emperor was a lot better than Dune.  I don't think I can even remember what happened in Messiah, and I could not be arsed reading more after GE -seemed like a great place to leave the series.

On a side note, where are the threads investigating the thematic and stylistic similarities with Homer and Gilgamesh?

Title: Re: Mishmash
Post by: Madness on November 24, 2013, 03:37:05 pm

I've free much more over Christmas, Curethan :).

I'll gladly attempt some parallels of the Iliad and the Odyssey with PON. Especially since we have a few fairly apparent threads right off the bat. I think Bakker has taken "the Gods moving men" idea and subtly woven it into TSA, and, obviously, we have "death swirling down" and the Homer-esque battle narratives (though, I think Harold Lamb affected Bakker's rendition of Homer's style in a pretty big way).

Title: Re: Mishmash
Post by: locke on November 25, 2013, 04:52:23 pm

Quote from: Triskele on November 23, 2013, 10:52:54 pm

Quote from: Madness on November 23, 2013, 09:03:58 pm

Sorry, Trisk.

But do us all a favour, please, and read all of Frank Herbert's Dune books :).

Veering off topic, but I was not all that impressed with the first one.  I think I have to be fair to Herbert and realize that it was written decades ago and was probably incredible for its time, but I didn't get too strong of an urge to read on.  I do have a copy of book 2, so perhaps I'll summon the courage to persist.

It does certainly seem that one ought to know both their Tolkien and their Herbert to fully appreciate Bakker.

take two sequels and call me in the morning.

Quote from: Madness on November 24, 2013, 03:37:05 pm

I've free much more over Christmas, Curethan :).

I'll gladly attempt some parallels of the Iliad and the Odyssey with PON. Especially since we have a few fairly apparent threads right off the bat. I think Bakker has taken "the Gods moving men" idea and subtly woven it into TSA, and, obviously, we have "death swirling down" and the Homer-esque battle narratives (though, I think Harold Lamb affected Bakker's rendition of Homer's style in a pretty big way).

Don't leave out Orlando Furioso

Title: Re: Mishmash
Post by: Madness on November 26, 2013, 02:27:47 pm

Lol that is interesting but then where do we draw the line ;)? The Renaissance? Enlightenment? Before the Millenia?

Title: Re: Mishmash
Post by: mrganondorf on March 13, 2014, 01:12:04 am

@ Ciogli - I think that avalanche is very suspicious too.  I suspect the psukhe!

I love the idea of lil dunyains following Akka.  Reminds me of what happens in the last dune book by herbert's son--the lil tliaxu following whatshisname around.

Also, I absolutely love this thing you wrote "The Niom will yield consequences, Sorweel looks to be some sort of sacrifice by Kellhuss to convince the Cunuroi, he no longer has any proximity to Kellhuss and his chorea has been given away. His connection with Yatwer may be suspected, and as the Cunuroi do not worship the spiritual agencies in the Outside, the fact Yatwer wars against Kellhuss may convince them of his mission."

If it does go in the direction of children fighting the war--I am really counting on Meppa teaching Kelmomas the psukhe!