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Messages - Monkhound

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91
Nice catch: A variant on "The meak shall inherit the earth", then?

If my memory serves, she recognizes Somma as a Skin-Spy only when she sees him fight to protect her. I can't remember her seeing him under TJE.

92
The Lesser Proyas (the Worldly incarnation of Proyas) is weak, which makes the Greater Proyas (the Spiritual part) strong. This is reversed in the case Saubon. A massive, nearly all-encompassing theme/motif of the series is "inversion". Everything's flipped upside down and turned inside out. It permeates every aspect of the series, from metaphysics, to worldbuilding, even down to names (surname first, given name second).

Saubon's error is seeing Kellhus as the embodiment power. Saubon believes that strength while living is all-important, and further more, he is precisely described as being incapable of truly worshiping or submitting to another man. This makes Saubon strong on the outside, but weak on the inside.

Upon death, one is "turned inside out"...so in the Outside all that Worldly strength is useless, because the inner-self is what gets exposed.

Proyas is the opposite. Suffering, doubt, self-hatred, self-loathing -- these make you truly strong. Being broken to such an extent you cannot be broken anymore.

Of course, all of this inverting/subverting works specifically because the series is written with a traditional, Western, Judeo-Christian (ideally male and heterosexual) perspective in mind.

The comparison of Saubon with Proyas you just made is, in my opinion,valid.
I somehow started looking for such parallels-going-antithesis the moment I read Saubon's death at Dagliash. The hint of Saubon seeing himself at Mengedda is an obvious hint that all the pieces on the board are in place and that the final scheme has just been set into motion (almost litteraly by Kellhus pushing the typical "Red Button").
The nuke at Dagliash creates (or reïnforces? Although I don't think the death of the Nonmen and the Diurnal there created one) a topos, a link to the Outside. The way we see it through the eyes of Saubon, I read a connection between the topoi at Mengedda and the one at Dagliash.

At the same time, we have a few parallels of severe underground trauma during the whole series:
*The death of Moenghus at the hand of his son Kellhus: I found your analysis above, very interesting and it obviously got me thinking.
*The death of Oinaral at the hand of his father Oirunas
Both deaths happen at the bottom of a Nonman mansion, in both cases, Knowledge (capital K) is at stake... If I push that further, it might even be the recovery of Memory (capital M), or the grasping of the plan, or of what is at stake.

And:
*The wight under Cil-Aujas: The scene is that of a haunted Nonman, which ends in a big explosion of something at the bottom of the Great Medial Screw
*The detonation of the nuke at Dagliash: The detonation happens at the top of the Well of Viri, basically a chimney pipe into the mountain
The detonation in Cil-Aujas is described more as an echo than as a genuine explosion

I'm inclined to believe that these events, just like Dagliash and Mengedda, are connected through Kellhus and TTT.

(click to show/hide)

Quote from: The No-Mod
Regarding your thoughts on the weapon races, I believe that is definitely the right track. I also think that the weapon races have been deliberately set up as a way of twisting the reader's expectations down the road, particularly regarding the Skin-Spies, but even Sranc and Bashrag. I have no clue how it will play out exactly of course, but I feel pretty strongly that idea of the Tekne creations being mere soulless husks will be flipped on its head and used as an example to show reader's that, functionally, there is no real difference between consciousness as experienced by a human and consciousness as experienced by a Skin-Spy, other than programming (and anatomy, I guess). Both are equally subject the Darkness that Comes Before, and humans possess no substantially greater level of "freedom" compared to the Skin-Spies. In fact, one could say the Skin-Spies are even more liberated than humans. Sure, they're yoked to the Inchoroi's commands by promise of sexual release, but then...look at Cnaiur and the Thing-Called-Serwe in TGO. Who seems more free in that dynamic? Who's playing who?

Same goes for Kellhus's dominion over just about everyone. He simply has more tools at his disposal. Swap Proyas's religious piety for sexual release, and he's just as much a puppet for Kellhus as the Skin-Spies are for Aurang...

I was thinking the same: Kellhus basically commands TGO as the No-God commands the Sranc.

Since the eyes as the window the the Soul was mentioned earlier, there is a passage in the Dagliash scene where Kellhus warns everybody to run away, in which the choice of words intrigued me:

Quote from: The Great Ordeal, hardcover p.376, Bold and Italics are in the book
Flee Dagliash! his voice boomed. Across the Erengaw and the root of the Urokkas, the combatants looked up and wondered.
Flee! Hide yourself from its sight!
It's specifically the last sentence, turned as if Dagliash could see/witness.
I know it's a relatively common turn of phrase, but still: It's not usually about a location.

93
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Meppa's Future Role?
« on: December 25, 2016, 04:28:25 pm »
Thank you for providing the quote.
Since the power of the Water comes from raw emotion and we know from TGO that Ciphrang feast on emotions, this is not too surprising :) . It's still an interesting passage I'd forgotten about though.

Edit: Interesting passage about magical metaphysical implications, I mean.

94
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Meppa's Future Role?
« on: December 25, 2016, 01:59:13 pm »
Going back to the Ciphrang's POV from TTT, their description of the Cish's Water was very similar to the thread that connected humans' souls to the Outside.

It's probably already been discussed in another thread, but... Quote for this? I'm intrigued.

I remember the passage in TTT in which the power of the Water depends on the power of one's emotions. The Dunyain's emotions being so stumped because of their breeding, the last Cishaurim is basically an antithesis of Kellhus. It's not unlikely that emotional raw power is necessary in the TTT Scheme.

Also another theory: How about Kellhus seeing a picture, while he was hanging from the tree. A bit as if he were looking at some sort of vision-like Da Vinci's Last Supper, representing all the 'required' protagonists for the final showdown. Basically him seeing the last "leaf" (or one of the last leaves anyway) of the tree of possibilities offered by TTT.
This would mean he is setting the gears in motion (guiding reality) to ensure all the protagonists are at the right place for the final showdown. Do we know if Kellhus can see the final stage(s) of TTT and what the final result is to be?

95
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Meppa's Future Role?
« on: December 20, 2016, 11:15:45 pm »
I personally think the thousand fold thought is the mechanism of the the game of existence. The driving force which moves the pieces of the game to play out their roles. The Dunyain are capable of conceptualizing fate as a series of deterministic actions. They didn't create it, they just apprehended it. Then like Virismista started enacting it as they believe in it. He is just following the TTT there is nothing else he can do for there are no moves in the games that haven't been predetermined.

Indeed, this is essentially what I think is happening.  Even Kellhus' enemies have a "part to play" such that it isn't possible (or should I say adventageous?) for him to eliminate them just yet.  Like Akka's role, there are things that need to be done that specifically cannot be done by Kellhus, by virtue of literally needing to be done by someone else.

While everyone else is a piece on the board, Kellhus is a piece and the hand moving them.

Talk about an interesting game of Benjuka...
The hints and rules have been there since the beginning.

96
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
« on: December 14, 2016, 04:16:03 pm »
Well, I have, in other spots, thrown out the theory that the Voice he hears and is referring to, is his own in fact, but from the future.  This would explain why he mention he listened "in his disorder," that is that he was so disoriented from the visions that he failed to realize that the Voice, his own voice, was in fact not actually from himself.

I was thinking more along the lines of the Voice being Korringhus, of whom we know has grasped the Absolute (or maybe the Boy, but I think he has different role to play). I have still not read Kellhus has.
We know Kellhus has seen beyond the Veil, which could very well mean he is not the one behind it.

Quote
A good point.  I had an inkling that he was attempting to dishearten, or sow disbelief in Proyas, but perhaps it is also to disorient them, in the sense that they would be so beyond what they could comprehend that they couldn't follow any path but the one Kellhus has put them on.  Not unlike what happened to Kellhus on the Circumfix, in the sense that he was then "open" to the Voice posing as his own, at a time when reason would be at an all time low and suggestibility at a high.
I mentioned it in the Aörsi thread, I think: I think Saubon was ready to fulfil his task, based on the descriptions we receive from the atrocities committed during the Unification Wars. Saubon was broken during TPN and sent on his path. Proyas still isn't because Kellhus didn't need him to be ready until the Dagliash aftermath.

Quote
Interesting food for thought.
Clearly!

Edit: Also remember a Harbinger is a messenger... The one that comes before.
I also mentioned in the 100 stones thread (I think) that Korringhus breaks the cycle of Before and After when he jumps.

97
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus and the Voice.
« on: December 13, 2016, 07:27:09 pm »
I actually never read the exchange as an admission of failure.
This scene requires the passage where Kellhus recounts what he saw while hanging from the tree in Caraskand to understand what happens here (the "vision between the stars" thing). Moënghus did not understand that Kellhus had pierced the veil allowing him to see the Head on a Pole, which Kellhus immediately understood from Mo's admission of the sentence "Your trial has broken you" (that is in the passage in Kyudea, in TTT).

The fascinating thing is that Kellhus listens, or at least acts on the commands of the Voice, without knowing is origins. Which suggests the Voice is something/someone more accomplished in bending someone to his will than himself.
Either that, or the arguments really are compelling.

But what the scene really tells us, in my opinion, is an admission of what Kellhus is doing both to Proyas and The Great Ordeal. Meaning: Reshaping them the way he was reshaped from scratch by the Voice, by driving them to the edge of sanity, in order to serve the new purpose they cannot fulfil in their current state.
- Proyas needs to be able to do the culling (and most likely much much worse than that)
- TGO needs to be enslaved, or at least mentally broken to fulfil some purpose that remains to be seen

98
The Great Ordeal / Re: Who are The Jaguars?
« on: November 23, 2016, 07:24:05 am »
My immediate associations were the Jaguar Warriors of the Aztec civilization.  I figured it was just the particular way of referring to the warrior caste of that region of Ainon or whatever. Knights/samurai/kshatriya/Jaguars, etc. etc.  But I don't believe they are mentioned at any other point in the books.

I had the same first association, but I expect them just to be the name of a military or mercenary company. In such large gatherings as the armies of TGO, people usually form smaller groups wirth the same cultural identity. Also note that we hadn't encountered any of the two soldiers in the first passage either.
I'm suspicious of any mention of animals in this book, but not in this instance. The passage appears to be mainly for illustrating the effect of the Sranc meat on nameless individuals, and the name of the company is part of the framework.

99
The Great Ordeal / Re: What is "Phusis"?
« on: November 03, 2016, 12:03:14 pm »
I distinctly remember looking up phusis because I thought it referred to a person as well.
My English vocabulary has expanded a lot since my first read of TGO, which does not happen often anymore. And... let's face it, So has my French and Dutch: Philology is an incredibly useful skill to be proficient in (provided you have affinity with Language)  ;D

100
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Koringhus' hundred stones?
« on: October 17, 2016, 08:15:04 pm »
I understand what you mean, Wilshire. Though I've always read the PT as a "tree" of which the branches, twigs, etc. are the possible outcomes. The cuts are a way of trimming the possibilities to determine the Shortest Path.
Which is also why I find the speech of the Synthese to the Thing Called Soma about "respecting all the prophecies, even the false ones" (in the WLW) an interesting parallel.

101
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Koringhus' hundred stones?
« on: October 15, 2016, 06:03:30 pm »
Quote from: Ciphrank
Monkhound - I didn't catch it the first time, but I fully agree that the repetition of "Cuts and cuts and cuts..." is not only a foreshadowing of the Cnaiur reveal at the end, but the entirety of the final Achamian/Mimara POV section is a cipher for understanding the nature of the God and how Damnation works in Earwa.

Not sure you got what I meant, but I accidentally opened the book on the correct passage about the Swazond I meant earlier. It's the passage where Serwë gets the young Kidruhil killed, before they join the Holy War. The italics are in the book:

Quote from: TDTCB softcover/pocket  p.458
With the knife, he cut a lateral line across her forearm. The pain was sharp and quick, but she bit her lip rather than cry out. "Swazond ," he said in harsh Scylvendi tones. "The man you have killed is gone from the world, Serwë. He exists only here, a scar upon your arm. It is the mark of his absence , if all the ways his soul will not move, and of all the acts he will not commit. A mark of the weight you now bear."

The scars/cuts seem like an embodiment of the Probability Trance, and by extension of TTT to me.
I know there are more passages in TPoN where Swazond are explained, but this requires more luck (or Search Fu).

102
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Koringhus' hundred stones?
« on: October 13, 2016, 04:16:28 pm »
For some reason, I think that 100th stone that he gave to the boy was a chorae, but have no real backup for that.

If it were a Chorae, wouldn't we have seen that confirmed through Achamian's POV? I expect he would have sensed it even before Mimara noticed Koringhus in the labor chambers (the term "laboratory" came to mind...  :-X).

*AWESOME* responses, folks!!!

Thinking back to how the Nonmen describe Yatwer as the "Fertility Principle", it might be that there are quite literally 100 discrete aspects to the fragmented God of Gods.  I'd always thought of The Hundred as a construct only.  But it might just be a fact.   

And it could be that Koringhus, in his brilliance (which I'm starting to believe surpasses even Kellhus) deduced this fact at some point, thus collecting the stones and killing the birds.

Since last night's realization, I'm thinking Koringhus is either the voice guiding Kellhus or the one guiding Kelmomas. At the top of page 406 he sees Achamian, Mimara and the boy watching him from the height from which he jumps 2 pages later. The moment he jumps, he becomes what has come before.
It's either that, or Koringhus is all of the incarnations of the Dunyain, which I still haven't discounted as a possibility.

Quote from: H
So, in transitioning (or needing to transition) from simply a state of Being to a state of Doing is what lead to the fracture?  So, before the Siege of Ishual, Koringhus was whole, since he could simply Be.  However, when it came down to Doing and so needing all those different things, the scavenger, the hunter, etc, he was fractured into all the necessary parts.

I concur: Some specific forms of Action/Doing seem important due to the repetitive pattern of the sequence immediately after Koringhus sees Achamian, Mimara and the boy on the heights (p. 406 again).

--
Edit: Also, last night's realization was the importance of Cnaïur in the chapter which culminates in Koringhus jumping off the ledge. The repetitive Cuts and cuts and cuts... reminded me of Cnaïur's uncountable swazond. In TDTCB we are told of the importance of swazond for the Scylvendi and what they represent. The rest trickles down from there.

103
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Koringhus' hundred stones?
« on: October 12, 2016, 07:26:10 pm »
Ninja'd by H :)

Also, note the quoted passage comes basically before the passage where Kellhus entrusts TGO to Proyas, his most faithful slave (can't find the exact wording right now). As if TGO is he hundredth stone: As if Proyas is finally ready, now that Saubon is dead, which (to me) confirms Saubon had to die at Dagliash.

Also note the passage on page 406 (italics are in the book):
Quote from: P.406
One hundred stones, too round to lock one into the other. Rounded like thumbs. THose on top warm for sunlight, like lobes or lozenges of living meat between the fingers. Those below chill, like the lips of the dead. Eyes scanning the coniferous gloom, isolating the ink of avian shadows. One hundred throws, arm snapping, sleeve popping, hand flicking ... A buzzing line, comprehended more in after-image than seen, spearing through the seams beween branches.
Ninety-nine birds struck dead. Numerous sparrows, doves, and more crows than anything else. Two falcons, a stork, and three vultures.
"Killing,"a  fraction explains to the wondering boy. "Killing connects me to what I am."
And what are you?
"The Survivor," another fraction repies, and yet another registers the network of scar tissue across his face, the tug and tension of unnatural compromises.
"The Heaper of the Dead".

Connect this to the Head on a Pole passage on page 44-46.
Mentioned are:
- Other Sons described as having animal features
- "The living shall not haunt the dead"

--
EDIT: Now that I re-re-re-reread the whole of page 406-407 multiple times in a row, it's stunning what happens when you use Cnaïur as a key to understand what happens there.

104
So eating sranc meat also gives humans much better eyesight in darkness. Proyas makes note of this in some of his POV sections.

So bear with me...

The Great Ordeal marching into to the tunnels in the Ring Mountains. Fighting the sranc in the tunnels, makes for plenty of natural choke points. Their new lowlight/dark vision means that they'll be able to see just fine and won't be ambushed. Blocking off the tunnels with piles of sranc corpses, retreating, rinse wash repeat.  Imagine pitch blackness and the Ordeal/sranc hordes fighting underground.

And then the Quya Erratics and Schoolman are fighting outside or something.

It would be an interesting parallel with the Battle of Ishual.
It's possible, but I believe it implausible: I expect there to be more sranc, bashrag, etc, in the Ark, but I don't think It and the Consult are going to let themselves be goaded like that.

105
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Head on a pole
« on: October 06, 2016, 01:22:43 pm »
Thanks for joining this rocky boat, MSJ  ;D

I think I mentioned it earlier: I believe the heads are representations of Saubon's and Proyas's (ciphrang?) aspects.
It makes sense:
They're his favorite servants... his Exalt-Generals. Proyas is even his favourite and most loyal slave.
Also, the use of the head came right after Saubon's death, and there's something in his death that just didn't feel right.
Add to that the description we get from the bad stuff Saubon did during the Unification Wars.
I think he had to die at Dagliash in order to be awakened on Malowebi's body.

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