The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Great Ordeal => Topic started by: Bolivar on September 08, 2016, 02:23:16 am
-
In WLW, Esmenet and Maithanet reason that Kellhus took the Ordeal to Golgotterath, knowing the New Empire would collapse in his absence. In The Great Ordeal, Kellhus' POV confirms that this was his mindstate and he willingly sacrificed his family anyway.
So why did he come back? He claims he came to save Esmenet and "salvage" what he could. Some reason Kellhus genuinely has small vestiges of human passion and does care for Esmenet on some level. As a skeptical reader, I can't accept this reasoning just yet. Did something change to prompt his return? Possibly the Nuke? And is there an ulterior motive (as is always the case with Kellhus)?
I'm inclined to believe he came for Kelmomas and has been conditioning him this entire time.
-
From his own POV we also know abandoning his family and Empire had emotional consequences he was blind to. IIRC he likened it to carving out his own heart. I think he really did just give up in a moment of weakness and go home, presumably hoping his conditioning of Proyas would lead to hi desired ends in the North (whatever they may be) still being achieved.
-
From his own POV we also know abandoning his family and Empire had emotional consequences he was blind to. IIRC he likened it to carving out his own heart. I think he really did just give up in a moment of weakness and go home, presumably hoping his conditioning of Proyas would lead to hi desired ends in the North (whatever they may be) still being achieved.
Ahhh, see that? They are coming around one by one.
-
I'm inclined to believe he came for Kelmomas and has been conditioning him this entire time.
Maybe. I'm inclined to believe Kellhus has known about Kelmomas all along.
But the main thing is possibly the battle vs Yatwer and Ajokli. After leaving Proyas in charge, I think he popped to the Outside and confronted the deities, ultimately leading him back to Momemn, where their avatars supposedly are.
-
He's enacting the TTT. Whatever that entails :P
-
Kellhus has had repeating, and lingering, "love" for Esmenet. His emotions are stunted, but there.
-
Well, possibly the nuke changed things. He needed more, or something different. So he came back to get what was left.
Not buying bleeding-heart Kellhus, he literally turns his back on Esmenet and walks away.
Ciphrang-Malowebi (to get Zeum) and Meppa seem to be what he was really after.
-
From his own POV we also know abandoning his family and Empire had emotional consequences he was blind to. IIRC he likened it to carving out his own heart. I think he really did just give up in a moment of weakness and go home, presumably hoping his conditioning of Proyas would lead to hi desired ends in the North (whatever they may be) still being achieved.
Ahhh, see that? They are coming around one by one.
They called us crazy, they dids. Those sneaky, little hobbitses. Always doubting the love the Place can have for you ;).
-
Always doubting the love the Place can have for you ;).
Have "love?" Sure, I'll toss you that, we already knew he had "vestigial passions."
Moved by love? Nope. Not even a little. The Place is the Place, he does not move, everything else does.
-
Oh, I'm just calling back to the fact that MSJ wasn't particularly impressed with us laughing about Kellhus having feelings during one of the reread Casts (haven't gone back to verify the slight, but it's poor form to invalidate someone's noted offense).
All jokes, MSJ ;).
-
Hey, I've always been of the opinion that Kellhus is broken. Leave me out of this!
Not buying bleeding-heart Kellhus, he literally turns his back on Esmenet and walks away.
I don't remember this because so much has been going on, but strange as it sounds, if this is after he glimpsed his assassination in her face it might be that his feelings were actually hurt.
Moved by love? Nope. Not even a little. The Place is the Place, he does not move, everything else does.
Call me crazy but I could swear this series has some kind of message in regards to people that view themselves as the immovable center of the universe...
-
Oh, I'm just calling back to the fact that MSJ wasn't particularly impressed with us laughing about Kellhus having feelings during one of the reread Casts (haven't gone back to verify the slight, but it's poor form to invalidate someone's noted offense).
All jokes, MSJ ;).
Haha, all throughout the Sslog of Slogs I was ridiculed and opposed by my opinion that Kellhus had emotions, loves and cares - just not like normal humans. I proposed he would make decisions based of these emotions and said that I believed he wouldn't leave Momemn to ruin. When I said this during the podcast, there were a few snickers and then quiet. Nobody wanted to touchnit, and I assumed that meant everyone thought the idea ludicrous. Which they did, the Slog of Slogs is my proof.
Look who's laughing now! Oh, I see everyone saying we always knew, blah, blah, blah. No one mentioned it before, no one backed me, rather told me Kellhus was Dunyain and therefore has no passion/emotion, only mission. I'm hearing a different time around here these days.
-
I will admit I never thought he'd actually abandon the Ordeal.
-
I will admit I never thought he'd actually abandon the Ordeal.
I based it off of two things. The conditioning of Proyas and the fact that he admits to having feelings that don't feel they should be there about Esme, during his Moe talk at Kyudea. Though, Serwa and the Circumfix is where it all started, I believe.
-
I've always considered Kellhus's failure to kill Cnaiur when it was convenient to do so to be one of his most revealing moments. He's too intelligent and the stakes are too damn high for him not to be a ruthless planner, but he does care. I think his son actually has the best moment of insight into his character when he tells Proyas that there's no "real" Kellhus. That he's whatever he's required to be in order to accomplish his goal and that his goal is salvation. Salvation isn't the goal of someone who doesn't care. The shortest path, for someone who doesn't care, is to help the Consult win and save his own life and soul. Salvation is the road of someone who wants to save other people.
-
I think the very action you cite proves Kayutas wrong.
-
Kayutas is wrong in that their is a "reality" to Kellhus, that he does care. The insight present is in explaining why Kellhus acts the way he acts. He applies all his Dunyain strength to bending the world to achieve his goal. All his ruthlessness, all his lies, all his deceptions and manipulations are explained by that statement. The actions that are not explained by this are the rare human ones, the emotions that even a Dunyain is subject to. The "real" Kellhus is buried under the legions of the false ones necessary to shape the world.
-
Kayutas is wrong in that their is a "reality" to Kellhus, that he does care. The insight present is in explaining why Kellhus acts the way he acts. He applies all his Dunyain strength to bending the world to achieve his goal. All his ruthlessness, all his lies, all his deceptions and manipulations are explained by that statement. The actions that are not explained by this are the rare human ones, the emotions that even a Dunyain is subject to. The "real" Kellhus is buried under the legions of the false ones necessary to shape the world.
+100000000000, what I've been saying going on a year now. There will always be "Mission" to Kellhus. That's why in TGO we get these explanations about place and being what he needs to be when he needs to be. But, under that is human emotion and it does effect his decisions and ultimately his overall goal - ending damnation and defeating the Consult. Saying Kellhus is "broken" is just another way of saying it, shorthand though. He is no longer Dûnyain......HE IS MORE!!!!!
-
Not buying bleeding-heart Kellhus, he literally turns his back on Esmenet and walks away.
I don't remember this because so much has been going on, but strange as it sounds, if this is after he glimpsed his assassination in her face it might be that his feelings were actually hurt.
Perhaps, I mean, that is as plausible as it being disappointment? In either case, he walks away from her. It may well be Kellhus has plenty of emotion, but he still isn't particularly moved by any of it.
Moved by love? Nope. Not even a little. The Place is the Place, he does not move, everything else does.
Call me crazy but I could swear this series has some kind of message in regards to people that view themselves as the immovable center of the universe...
I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but Kellhus certainly places himself at the center of all the events of this Second Apocalypse. Indeed, that is what The Thousandfold Thought is, right? He says himself "He, and he alone, was the Place, the point of maximal convergence."
As Kyutas explains, after all the kids pondering, they realize: "“Look … the thing to always remember about Father, Uncle, is that he is always—and only—what he needs to be."
If you mean that he is in for a rude awakening when he realizes that things will be outside his control, and in fact probably already are, then I agree. But he still has himself placed at the center of all the events we are witnessing, for better or worse.
-
I think when Malowebi asks Meppa what he is and he replys, "Weary". Says a lot about Kellhus's human nature.
-
I think when Malowebi asks Meppa what he is and he replys, "Weary". Says a lot about Kellhus's human nature.
I think that speaks right to what Kayûtas tells us though. Sure, Kellhus may be weary, but that doesn't matter. Kellhus is both the fount of the TT and a cog in it machinations.
Sure, he may have emotion, he may have passion, he may tire, he may be weary, but none of that matters in the sense of driving him to action. He only does what must be done.
-
I think when Malowebi asks Meppa what he is and he replys, "Weary". Says a lot about Kellhus's human nature.
You might be reading too much into this. When he returns to Momemn in The Judging Eye (or was it WLW?) to see Sharacinth, he's exhausted purely because of the exertion of travelling that distance by teleportation. And that journey was much shorter. I think he was simply tired because of that.
*EDIT: Original post said Pstama Nannaferi - I meant Sharacinth
-
I think when Malowebi asks Meppa what he is and he replys, "Weary". Says a lot about Kellhus's human nature.
You might be reading too much into this. When he returns to Momemn in The Judging Eye (or was it WLW?) to see Psatma Nannaferi, he's exhausted purely because of the exertion of travelling that distance by teleportation. And that journey was much shorter. I think he was simply tired because of that.
While that is plausible, why say "weary" when he meant "tired" or "exhausted." No, to me weary has a whole different connotation than either of those others and so it seems wholly reasonable to draw the inference that MSJ did from his choice of words. Being weary isn't just being tired.
-
Well, possibly the nuke changed things. He needed more, or something different. So he came back to get what was left.
Not buying bleeding-heart Kellhus, he literally turns his back on Esmenet and walks away.
Ciphrang-Malowebi (to get Zeum) and Meppa seem to be what he was really after.
Ciphrang Malowebi is a pretty huge event. He's only got two heads, so using one on Malowebi must have been extremely important - worth a journey of a thousands of leagues.
Using that to force Zeum's hand post-nuke - that's a theory I like the sound of.
But, Zeum is far away, no matter how you slice it. If there is a path where they can get through the mountains to the North of Domyot, they're still very far away, and I believe its starting to become Fall, isn't it? So snow will be a problem, especially for a desert peoples.
Alternatively, they could sail north and part near the mouth of the Leash. Sailing, I beleive, would be faster than marching, but even if they landed in the Leash they are still on the far side of Agongorea - a similar distance to where TGO is currently.
I don't see how Zeum can reach Golgotterath in any timeframe that allows them to help TGO. Maybe if the siege of Golgotterath becomes a months long process (lets ignore the logistics problems of that for now) then Zeum might be able to show up... But that seems like kind of a waste. Even if successful, TGO at this point will be largely destroyed. Only the shattered remains of a twice shattered army.
So then, whats the plan for Zeum? To come take over the three seas and secure Kellhus' throne? Seems unlikely, what's worth saving?
Is Kellhus just looking for a safe place to lick his wounds post Golgotterath? I guess Malowebi could condition the ground for his arrival in Domyot. That again, though, seems unlikely. A waste of a precious artifact
I just don't see the end game. The path is too narrow!
-
Is Kellhus just looking for a safe place to lick his wounds post Golgotterath? I guess Malowebi could condition the ground for his arrival in Domyot. That again, though, seems unlikely. A waste of a precious artifact
I just don't see the end game. The path is too narrow!
I don't think he is looking to rest at all. I think the whole exercise of The Great Ordeal is to draw out the Consult. So, in every way, no matter what they have done, they are playing into Kellhus' "plan." I phrase it as such, because I don't think he actually knows exactly what is going to happen, but the visions (himself from the future) are simply guiding him along. One doesn't necessarily need to know the destination if you are told every step. Perhaps, again, the whole thing is so ambiguous it could be anything. I think TTT has transcended him, which is what I meant by him being both the fount and a cog. The plan is both from him, of him, and yet through him. This is why he is more than just a man with a plan, he is a place where the man and the plan intersect.
My best guess is that by leaving Zeum leaderless, he can arrive there and be a savior? Kill Ciphrang-Malowebi and be their hero? He can then use Zeum's resources as the next thing to throw at the Consult?
-
I totally left out the fact that the-thing-that-is-Malowebi probably won't even reach Zeum until TGO is at Golgotterath. So, yeah, whatever Zeum's role is to be, its not to save TGO.
-
I totally left out the fact that the-thing-that-is-Malowebi probably won't even reach Zeum until TGO is at Golgotterath. So, yeah, whatever Zeum's role is to be, its not to save TGO.
Oh, definitely. The Great Ordeal isn't there to win. They are there to occupy the Consult, while Kellhus does the things he needs to do to be ready for the real showdown. What the hell that is I am not sure, but perhaps it involves Meppa?
-
Repeat Mengedda - using Zeum for the meat shield, Meppa for the Spear, kill NG there again, make the topos so intense that it tears a whole into the Outside... And other such ridiculous ends. TSTSNBN will be quite the ride. TUC, I fear, ends in tragedy.
-
We got back to "Kellhus has conditioned every step of the way and this is all part of his master plan" pretty quick.
-
TGO being a big feignt is a ridiculous gambit, though its great we don't even know what his final goal is.
We got back to "Kellhus has conditioned every step of the way and this is all part of his master plan" pretty quick.
When did that happen?
-
I think when Malowebi asks Meppa what he is and he replys, "Weary". Says a lot about Kellhus's human nature.
You might be reading too much into this. When he returns to Momemn in The Judging Eye (or was it WLW?) to see Psatma Nannaferi, he's exhausted purely because of the exertion of travelling that distance by teleportation. And that journey was much shorter. I think he was simply tired because of that.
While that is plausible, why say "weary" when he meant "tired" or "exhausted." No, to me weary has a whole different connotation than either of those others and so it seems wholly reasonable to draw the inference that MSJ did from his choice of words. Being weary isn't just being tired.
This.
Also, I'm not buying anything we see of Kellhus that doesn't come from his own POV. He never stops dissembling. Ever. And we as readers only get the perspective of the POV character, only ever able to *guess* at what's really going on in his head even after 6 books.
ETA: also, Kellhus want really tired after travelling in TJE. He just pretended to be too manipulate Esme. He always makes an effort to appear at least somewhat human with her so that she will stay in her place.
You are the fist that beats us.
-
I agree with Yellow here.
To the original question, I'm wondering if perhaps Kellhus wasn't so much abandoning the empire as he was appearing to abandon the empire to draw out his enemies, so that he could come back as he did and efficiently wipe them out. Granted, he seems to have just plain gotten lucky (so to speak) with this White Luck Warrior business. But still. It would have been a lot of work to deal directly with the Yatwer cult, the rebellion in Kian, and Zeum not being totally on board. So he leaves under the "while the cat's away the mice will play" theory, and then boom! He's back to tie up all the loose ends.
Granted, the fact that the timing of this worked out so well is a bit tough to credit even for Kellhus, but maybe it's just one more thing we have to accept about Kellhus's abilities.
-
Drawing out his enemies is something. But then there still must be a reason for doing that. I just don't know what's so important that he had to return in order to save.
I think that something didn't go as planned up north, and he needed something from back home which he left there as a contingency. Could have been any number of things, could have even been Maithanet or Theli, who are now both dead and useless to him.
His return doesn't necessarily mean everything is falling into place for him. I think its safe to assume that Kellhus regularly reevaluates his plan so that it is likely to succeed - whatever success means. That doesn't mean that everything is conditioned ground. I'd think that he would have learned a bit from his Father's mistake and left open some contingency plans in case something major went wrong.
-
I think when Malowebi asks Meppa what he is and he replys, "Weary". Says a lot about Kellhus's human nature.
You might be reading too much into this. When he returns to Momemn in The Judging Eye (or was it WLW?) to see Psatma Nannaferi, he's exhausted purely because of the exertion of travelling that distance by teleportation. And that journey was much shorter. I think he was simply tired because of that.
While that is plausible, why say "weary" when he meant "tired" or "exhausted." No, to me weary has a whole different connotation than either of those others and so it seems wholly reasonable to draw the inference that MSJ did from his choice of words. Being weary isn't just being tired.
This.
Also, I'm not buying anything we see of Kellhus that doesn't come from his own POV. He never stops dissembling. Ever. And we as readers only get the perspective of the POV character, only ever able to *guess* at what's really going on in his head even after 6 books.
ETA: also, Kellhus want really tired after travelling in TJE. He just pretended to be too manipulate Esme. He always makes an effort to appear at least somewhat human with her so that she will stay in her place.
You are the fist that beats us.
Well, you're contradicting yourself in your own response. Your saying Kellhus faked Bering tired to Esme when he travelled all the way from the Ordeal. Yet, weary, just means tired when he travels back in TGO. Kellhus has never seemed "tired" at anytime I can recall, he is superhuman. He is weary because of the twists, turns and constant head games he has to play, in order to reach his goal. There are bits and pieces throughout TSA that show that Kellhus had these emotions and are what motivate him, he just doesn't ruminate on them because he doesn't think he should have them. One question? If Kellhus didn't care, why wouldn't he just say the he'll with everyone else's soul and join the Consult? He wouldn't need an Ordeal, he could reduce Earwa population on his own with his army and schoolmen. He's weary because he has a job to do for humanity, that no matter how awful it seems now, no matter how many dead fall in his wake, he will accomplish a world without the Consult and the certainty of damnation. He's weary!
-
I think when Malowebi asks Meppa what he is and he replys, "Weary". Says a lot about Kellhus's human nature.
You might be reading too much into this. When he returns to Momemn in The Judging Eye (or was it WLW?) to see Psatma Nannaferi, he's exhausted purely because of the exertion of travelling that distance by teleportation. And that journey was much shorter. I think he was simply tired because of that.
While that is plausible, why say "weary" when he meant "tired" or "exhausted." No, to me weary has a whole different connotation than either of those others and so it seems wholly reasonable to draw the inference that MSJ did from his choice of words. Being weary isn't just being tired.
This.
Also, I'm not buying anything we see of Kellhus that doesn't come from his own POV. He never stops dissembling. Ever. And we as readers only get the perspective of the POV character, only ever able to *guess* at what's really going on in his head even after 6 books.
ETA: also, Kellhus want really tired after travelling in TJE. He just pretended to be too manipulate Esme. He always makes an effort to appear at least somewhat human with her so that she will stay in her place.
You are the fist that beats us.
Well, you're contradicting yourself in your own response. Your saying Kellhus faked Bering tired to Esme when he travelled all the way from the Ordeal. Yet, weary, just means tired when he travels back in TGO. Kellhus has never seemed "tired" at anytime I can recall, he is superhuman. He is weary because of the twists, turns and constant head games he has to play, in order to reach his goal. There are bits and pieces throughout TSA that show that Kellhus had these emotions and are what motivate him, he just doesn't ruminate on them because he doesn't think he should have them. One question? If Kellhus didn't care, why wouldn't he just say the he'll with everyone else's soul and join the Consult? He wouldn't need an Ordeal, he could reduce Earwa population on his own with his army and schoolmen. He's weary because he has a job to do for humanity, that no matter how awful it seems now, no matter how many dead fall in his wake, he will accomplish a world without the Consult and the certainty of damnation. He's weary!
I think you've misread the responses here, MSJ. It was me who said Kellhus was merely tired, not Yellow.
All Kellhus needs is to put his feet up for a while with a nice cup of tea. :)
-
Not sure about this whole weary vs. tired debate. Not going to get involved :P
... in order to reach his goal...
Exactly. All things to reach his goal. What goal though? We're not sure.
One question? If Kellhus didn't care, why wouldn't he just say the he'll with everyone else's soul and join the Consult?
Well, if his goal is to kill the Consult, its probably that he determined that TGO was the best way to do that. Joining them may not have been an option. Too many unknowns that route regardless.
He wouldn't need an Ordeal, he could reduce Earwa population on his own with his army and schoolmen.
I'll give this one a maybe. The scholastic wars ended devastatingly for the schools. There are a lot of chorae around, doing that himself would be tough, even with one or several schools. Easier to send the entire population of men into the wilderness and have them killed by endless sranc.
He's weary because he has a job to do for humanity,
He's got a job to do for sure. For humanity? We'll see.
that no matter how awful it seems now, no matter how many dead fall in his wake, he will accomplish a world without the Consult and the certainty of damnation. He's weary!
A world without the Consult seems like a goal of his. Though, imo, its just as likely to be for his own gains than it is for some altruistic reasoning like "killing damnation"
All Kellhus needs is to put his feet up for a while with a nice cup of tea. :)
"Tea" = Chanv laced anpoi.
-
@Hogman, yes I know. Just quoted the Whole thing. I get that we're picking up what each other is putting down! :)
-
When I said this during the podcast, there were a few snickers and then quiet.
ROFL we are so fucking awkward on the casts sometimes. You definitely got the last laugh though, MSJ. Even if the return for Esmi is a cover for something deeper, you still read the signs right and his return at least validates that line of thinking for now.
The only reason I don't personally subscribe to it is because there's just so many contradictions, so I defer to Occam's Razor - the only thing I know for sure is that Kellhus is trying to achieve selfhood. Everything else is too much of a leap for me until we get more evidence.
-
Kellhus has been physically exhausted and mentally bordering on despondent multiple times in the first trilogy. I have no difficulty believing some tasks are arduous for him now as well. Super-human doesn't mean omnipotent.
-
Kellhus has been physically exhausted and mentally bordering on despondent multiple times in the first trilogy. I have no difficulty believing some tasks are arduous for him now as well. Super-human doesn't mean omnipotent.
I agree 100%. Teleportation takes a huge toll on the body/mind. Serwe could only teleport 2x a day. Kellhus would have had to do it several times a day to get ~2000 (or is it ~3000?) miles back to Momemn. And Kellhus is getting older. He is superhuman but he also needs food, water, rest.
On the topic of his emotions, I'm leaning towards the idea that he bummed Proyas out of his own desire rather than as part of his plan. He definitely considered the consequences of it and decided it wouldn't be harmful to Proyas' conditioning and so Kelly could get all up in his "most beautiful servant".
It was clever of Bakker when he revealed that Kellhus went mad on the Circumfix, and that he's being afflicted by the meat. How much does it affect his judgement, his emotions? Makes him more unpredictable.
-
But he also teleported back from the Ordeal at the end of this book (which was much further away) , and had enough energy to do everything he did.
Also, why would Serwa's limitations be any indication at all of Kellhus'?
You are the fist that beats us.
-
Yeah, Serwa is not kellhus. Her limits are not his.
Kell might be tired after teleports, but even the very first time he does it, in ttt, he kills a bunch of primaries and jumps like a half dozen times.
In addition, could be that Kellhus took a couples days to get from the ordeal to the city. Took a nice picknik before jumping in to save the day. We have no idea. The timestamps in the books are suspect.
-
I doubt it takes much time for a Dunyain to recover. A good nights sleep and a warm meal before jumping into the middle of an enemy camp sounds like something he might do. I wonder did he bring any scranc meat with him...
Serwa is the only other person in Earwa capable of the metagnosis and is half Dunyain. The half bloods seem to have much more strength than humans considering Kelmomas' acrobatics and overpowering of grown men (he did surprise them but still he's like 5). Considering it tires her out so, and considering Kellhus is not excused from bodily worries, you'd imagine he'd be tired from his long trek from Dagliash to Momemn. I mean, come on guys it's not like he's a god or anything hahaha
-
He nearly died in the Wilderness outside Ishual, right off. Being bound to the Circumfix had the kind of mental and physical side effects one would expect of a more normal human being (even if we assume all the "No-God" visions are genuine visions and 100% real). The distance from the Great Ordeal to Momemn is tremendous. Further, I don't think Kellhus does, generally, deliberately cultivate an appearance of vulnerability around Esmenet anymore. She notices on her own, and has done so at times against his will, starting in Warrior Prophet.
Kellhus's mule children and half brother are not at all perfect models for Kellhus, granted. But until recently, they were the only models we had outside his own PoV. Now though, we have his son. Who suffered tremendously and began to go mad during the war beneath Ishual.
-
Quick aside, how do they define madness? Believing in their own power-trips? Turning into a normie?
-
Quick aside, how do they define madness? Believing in their own power-trips? Turning into a normie?
I'd say madness to a Dûnyain is simply allowing themselves emotions. That means they are letting the darkness that comes before have an effect on them. They are trained to stamp out those emotions.
As far as Kellhus being tired, sure he gets tired. But, in TDTCB when he nearly dies it is because he has no food, is overwhelmed by everything, and exposure. That's not something TGO Kellhus would allow, he controls circumstance. It is said somewhere when they explain the Cant of Translocation, you can go as far as you can see, or to a place you have been before and you know. Hence, Kellhus jumping from the Ordeal to Momemn, is one jump. He knows Momemn, knows his destination. Weary, is not because he is tired, which he may well be, it's because all he is going through to accomplish his goals.
-
That's not quite right, though. He couldn't insta-jump straight back to Momemn in TJE, it took numerous trips.
You are the fist that beats us.
-
I swore that it was said somewhere in the books the the Can't could take you to a specific spot if you knew the place. I tried finding that quote and couldn't. But, this when Serwa explains it to Sorweel, shows the immense difference in power between her and her father. I will see if I can find the other quote also, though I may be confusing it with the Cant of Calling.
The Cant of Translocation, she went on to explain, could take them only the space of horizon, less if her vision were obscured. The Cant’s difficulty was such that she could successfully hold its meaning only after at least two watches of sleep. She was lucky, she said, if she could complete two Translocations a day, unlike her divine father, who could cross endless leagues in that time, stepping from horizon to horizon.
-
I don't remember much madness, aside from Kellhus taking a few un-Dunyain moral stances at the end of PoN. The Survivor made some declarations of madness, but if you can call yourself mad, you're still on the sanity spectrum in my book. In my viewpoints big K and Survivor were textbook Dunyain. Taking control of their circumstances in pursuit of the Absolute, albeit following different paths. It's why I have a hard time subscribing to Kellhus cares theory. The Survivor is there as a showcase of the correct path, love and all that jazz. Kellhus on the other hand is going to pull a Kirk style Kobayashi Maru escapade I think.
-
I dunno, there was bizarre compulsive behavior from Koringhus like the thing with the birds (and he doesn't feel sane in general, inside his PoV). Kellhus does and experiences plenty of stuff anyone that hasn't read the book (and so risks deciding Kellhus is divine) would consider insane. Although why they should be mutually exclusive when most of the few sources we have on the outside show that it is insane, I do not know. The Dunyain probably have many categories of broken if their inbreeding depression is severe as speculated by some.
-
There is a certain book series, that I'll leave nameless so I can talk about it without spoilers, that a group of people are told they are special. So special, in fact, that they can speak to Gods, but to do so they are compulsed (by said Gods) to perform certain rituals.
Well, it turns out that those people just have plain old Schizophrenia with the added bonus of OCD. It was a government conspiracy/experiment/etc.
It would be amusing if something along those lines was true with the Dunyain/Earwa. Certainly not everything, but some 'phenomenon' might just be explained by similar effects: the Dunyain have several different interacting strains of mental psychosis, such as described above.
I swore that it was said somewhere in the books the the Can't could take you to a specific spot if you knew the place. I tried finding that quote and couldn't. But, this when Serwa explains it to Sorweel, shows the immense difference in power between her and her father. I will see if I can find the other quote also, though I may be confusing it with the Cant of Calling.
The Cant of Translocation, she went on to explain, could take them only the space of horizon, less if her vision were obscured. The Cant’s difficulty was such that she could successfully hold its meaning only after at least two watches of sleep. She was lucky, she said, if she could complete two Translocations a day, unlike her divine father, who could cross endless leagues in that time, stepping from horizon to horizon.
The quote in TTT from Kellhus limits the Translocation distance to 1 horizon, either by directly seeing it as per usual, or to a place that is well studied. I think of it as 'seeing' it in the mind's eye.
I think on a clear day a normal person can see 2 miles to the horizon? Maybe its 5 miles. Not super relevant because of the above quote - 'endless' is a pretty large number of jumps.
Also, for the sake of funs, the distance to the horizon is limited both by the curvature of the Earth and the atmosphere. At large enough distances the atmosphere just gets in the way of the light and you can't see any farther. But, wait, often Kellhus is seen translocating from way up in the air. Why might that be? As it turns out, there is less atmosphere getting in the way, and at enough height you can see more fully the curvature of the world. From a space station, you could make a complete circuit around the world in ~4 jumps.
Granted, there's no air in space(!), and for other obvious reasons (vaccum, temperature, radiation, etc.), he can't go that high up, but presumably, he could go pretty damn high, and lengthen the single horizon jump length to pretty extraordinary distances.
FYI, I subscribe to none of that, just an explanation for those that need reasons.
-
Yeah i've always thought teleport up and as you fall just keep casting sideways.
He could have teleported that nuke really far away grab it teleport to the inchies spaceship dump it and teleport back. Saubon sees him porting and shouting all over the place then has a bit of scrap with sranc which lasts a while as he is described as getting more and more fatigued, then the nuke goes off.
-
Yep. I don't doubt that Kellhus could have done something with the nuke and diverted some of the devastation to his Ordeal. Though I could see that he could somehow determine it was going to explode, but not when, and so he GTFO to be safe. Saved a couple of the schoolpeople on his way out.
-
Yep. I don't doubt that Kellhus could have done something with the nuke and diverted some of the devastation to his Ordeal. Though I could see that he could somehow determine it was going to explode, but not when, and so he GTFO to be safe. Saved a couple of the schoolpeople on his way out.
I'm just finding the old cartoons where the wiley coyote makes a bomb for roadrunner and as he is covering his ears waiting for it to go off, the bomb gets dumped next to them.
-
Yep. I don't doubt that Kellhus could have done something with the nuke and diverted some of the devastation to his Ordeal. Though I could see that he could somehow determine it was going to explode, but not when, and so he GTFO to be safe. Saved a couple of the schoolpeople on his way out.
Well he did notice that there was a countdown on the Nuke and figured he didn't have time to do anything but what he did. Its just more proof, to me, that Kellhus knew nothing of the Nuke.
-
Are we sure there was a countdown? Haven't my book with me but I don't remember Saubon saying the text changed. I agree that Kellhus knew nothing of the nuke.
Raises more questions for me. Why did the consult pack the tunnels under dagliash with sranc in order to ambush Kelly if they intended to nuke them? Why did Aurang (Aurax?) show up at all? Why did he turn away - did he detect the nuke somehow? If Kellhus didn't know about the nuke why did he continue to pull crap out of the well when his goal was to block the sranc?
I had another few questions but I need sleep to remember them :P
-
Yep. I don't doubt that Kellhus could have done something with the nuke and diverted some of the devastation to his Ordeal. Though I could see that he could somehow determine it was going to explode, but not when, and so he GTFO to be safe. Saved a couple of the schoolpeople on his way out.
Well he did notice that there was a countdown on the Nuke and figured he didn't have time to do anything but what he did. Its just more proof, to me, that Kellhus knew nothing of the Nuke.
or he sacrificed some of his army for all of the horde. He looks to have saved most of the Ordeal's arcane might.
It might not have been a time dependent decision. He might be doing the old "polish immortal" chess move.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/quora/2012/12/18/what_is_the_best_sacrifice_in_the_history_of_chess.html
-
I sticking with my theory, Kellhus' visions or the voice, or both, told him to go to Dagliash and to pull whatever was in there out of The Well. It makes no real sense for him to have done that if he wasn't looking for something, right? Otherwise, why bother? He may not have known the full details, but he knew enough to have an idea what was generally going to happen.
Aurang's appearance is probably tied to the bomb coming out of The Well. I think their plan was to use the Bashrags to draw the fighting down into Dagliash and so when the bomb exploded down the Well, there would be no escape, even those of the Few whose Wards would hold would fall down it just like Titirga. Kellhus' excavation threw that whole plan in the trash.
-
Yep. I don't doubt that Kellhus could have done something with the nuke and diverted some of the devastation to his Ordeal. Though I could see that he could somehow determine it was going to explode, but not when, and so he GTFO to be safe. Saved a couple of the schoolpeople on his way out.
Well he did notice that there was a countdown on the Nuke and figured he didn't have time to do anything but what he did. Its just more proof, to me, that Kellhus knew nothing of the Nuke.
or he sacrificed some of his army for all of the horde. He looks to have saved most of the Ordeal's arcane might.
It might not have been a time dependent decision. He might be doing the old "polish immortal" chess move.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/quora/2012/12/18/what_is_the_best_sacrifice_in_the_history_of_chess.html
Totally agree. That's apparent from his comment that it's a good thing. I was just addressing the post about him teleporting it away.
-
Are we sure there was a countdown? Haven't my book with me but I don't remember Saubon saying the text changed. I agree that Kellhus knew nothing of the nuke.
Raises more questions for me. Why did the consult pack the tunnels under dagliash with sranc in order to ambush Kelly if they intended to nuke them? Why did Aurang (Aurax?) show up at all? Why did he turn away - did he detect the nuke somehow? If Kellhus didn't know about the nuke why did he continue to pull crap out of the well when his goal was to block the sranc?
I had another few questions but I need sleep to remember them :P
There was some scrolling text that could be interpreted as a countdown as I remember.
Dagliash was packed with Sranc and Bashrag because they needed to ensure the Ordeal was well engaged and unable to safely withdraw from the vicinity of it.
I believe Aurang showed up to get in range to remotely trigger the nuke then ran. But no way to know for sure.