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Messages - Mandos

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The Unholy Consult / Re: Who actually liked TUC?
« on: August 23, 2017, 07:38:29 am »
I was quite upset and depressed the evening I finished the book, but I felt better about it later on, like so many here.

It took me a while to understand my reaction. But it had mostly to do with Kellhus' failure:

We know Bakker set out to subvert fantasy genre and introduce the concepts from Evolutionary Psychology & Neuroscience (i.e. Blind Brain Theory, Semantic Apocalypse) to a wider audience. Those who read his books were in on the secret! Kellhus wasn't the traditional fantasy hero come to save the world, he was a fraud - a way to introduce, play up and take advantage of people's blindness to their own mental processes. We knew what was going on. It was all those other people, both in books and in the real world, ignorant of what Kellhus was doing/scientific developments on the subject. Oh those gulls and fools! Wasn't it wonderful to watch Kellhus manipulate and control everything through the first trilogy? Anticipate and conquer every single turn of events as PoN progressed? And so I came to identify and cheer Kellhus on (like many others, I suspect). He was the one with all the answers, with deepest understanding and all the technically correct (the best kind of correct) solutions.

There were hints of troubles in TAE. We didn't get many chapters from Kellhus' POV and none that sufficiently illuminated his perception of events, outside of handling Proyas. Maithanet's assassination showed limits to Dunyan control of events. Kellhus himself was only saved from White-Luck's assassination attempt by Kelmomas' interruption. And yet I believed - believed! - that Kellhus had all the answers and would be in control of events. If his son, The Survivor, had seemingly "solved the problem" with such limited time and access to the outside world, then surely Kellhus with his decades of experience would be able to do even better. I did not expect a "good ending", I was fully expecting Neuropath-style ending. But it would be "the correct solution". I had faith Kellhus would find a way between damnation at the hands of gods and shutting the world against them with No-God - a third way if you will.

In other words, I had come to have all the same expectations and identification of a traditional fantasy hero with a character meant specifically to undermine and subvert the very same genre and expectations! What a terrible disappointment it had been to find my hero fail at the end of the book. But I suspect this was the trap Mr. Bakker set for us all along.

If I set aside my feeling of disappointment and rejection of my hero failing, the end of the book plays out quite nicely. Think of the dark irony and revealatory horror a la Planet of The Apes ending "You Blew It All Up!" Or imagine a Twilight Zone episode ending, with Rod Sterling declaring "And so ends the Great Ordeal, meant to prevent the Second Apocalypse, it became the very vehicle to deliver their enemy's main weapon and doom mankind".

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The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoilers] Serwa and Kelmomas
« on: August 14, 2017, 06:47:18 am »
Is anyone else being reminded of The Survivor's Son (aka Crabhand) from The Great Ordeal, when reading this scene? (I didn't see anything mentioned in the thread - correct me if I'm wrong). After emerging from TTH in ruins of Ishual, Koringhus collects 100 stones, goes into the forest and kills 99 birds, because "he can't stop killing", with 1 stone per 1 bird. Later, under effects of the Qirri, he gives the 100th stone to his son, before taking his final leap. Later still, The Survivor's Son eludes C'nauir's companion skin spy, who looks like original Serwe, by striking her with 100th stone, while on the cliffs.

The parallels, or perhaps inversions, of Serwa & 100th missing Chorae to Koringhus's Son striking skin spy Serwe with his 100th stone are striking. I don't know what exactly to make of it. The Survivor said in TGO "That all of this has somehow already happened." This is clearly not a case of replaying things exactly the same, but it does remind me dualities concept found in mathematics/physics where two theories/formulas can be translated back and forth into each other, which makes calculations which are difficult in one - much easier in the other one. This feels like something along the same lines: the same event, just being given different interpretation/inverted in some ways. Also reminds me of those boxes, mentioned in appendix, which show horrible/demonic scenes from some perspectives, but good/heavenly scene from another.

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The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Malowebi
« on: August 03, 2016, 04:18:23 am »
So, I was in the process re-reading TGO, when I noticed a continuity error with Malowebi's beheading and Kellhus' description. Perhaps it' just an oversight and/or result of literary ploy of switching character viewpoints, or maybe there's something else going on... Put on your tinfoil hats!

My page numbers are from US Hardcover edition, in case it's different in other countries. Bold is my emphasis.

Chapter 16 - Momemn, starting on page 419, we switch between Kelmomas', Malowebi's and Esmenet's POVs.

Page 451, end of Malowebi's section:
Quote
"What?" the Mbimayu Schoolman gasped. "What ... are ... you?"
The man reached for the pommel jutting above his shoulder. Enshoiya flashed in the embattled light ....
"Weary," the grim visage replied
The famed sword fell.

Next comes Kel's short section, as he continues to follow Issiral/WLW through the ruined palace. POV switches to Esmenet, who also follows Issiral/WLW to the throne room, where she find Kellhus on Page 455:
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She knew him instantly, but a more stubborn fraction of her soul elected to believe he was Issiral. His every step proved an insult to this pretense, the discs of gold about his hands and face, the Decapitants bound to his girdle, the flaxen beard and mane, the looming stature...

Next comes a small WLW section in all italics, everything-already-happened style. Followed by longer Kel's section, where his cry breaks the pre-ordained murder of Aspect-Emperor. Followed by chapter's last, Malowebi's POV, on page 461:
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Casting his blade into the carpeted earth, the Aspect-Emperor seized one of the Decapitants, wrenched diabolical trophy from his girdle, then raised horror to the welling stump of his neck ...

There's clearly a continuity error, the way these sections appear in Chapter 16. We get Malowebi getting beheaded by Kellhus, then Kellhus coming to throne room of the palace and avoiding WLW's pre-ordained assassination, and chapter ends with Malowebi-Ciphrang fusion. On one hand we can dismiss it, as part of a literary ploy of switching different POVs. Of course, Kellhus fused Malowebi with Ciphrang head first, then he went to the throne room. But, when Esmenet find Kellhus in throne room, he still has "Decapitants bound to his girdle" - multiple, as in two, like he always does, when it should be one... So what's going on here? We can also dismiss this as an error - Kellhus is always described as having "Decapitants bound to his girdle", so perhaps it was a simple oversight on the part of the author. Or could it be something else... Are the two scenes in fact happening at the same time? One in throne room, and one in Fanim camp? Are there two of Kellhus? Is he splitting himself? Am I just reading too much into it, and spinnig tinfoil hat theories?

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The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] Threads of White
« on: July 27, 2016, 03:36:59 am »
I actually thought that Ishual itself was a simulation, after reading TDTCB:
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Though forests below Ishual had been much the same, Kellhus found himself unsettled for some reason. [...] The water he drew to his lips was more replenishing, more sweet, than any water he had tasted before. But how could water taste sweet? How could sunlight, broken across the back of rushing waters, be so beautiful?

To me that read as Kellhus leaving the simulation of Ishual and surrounding areas, and somehow gaining physical presence in the actual world, hence enhanced stimuli.

But yes, I read Serwa's "threads of white" as lines delineating pixels of the simulation.  :)

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Quote

Yes, and the "fact" that she says that men's souls "shine brighter" than women's is probably another giveaway that the Judging eye is heavily influenced by Earwa society and history, and *not* objective truth.

Mimara also mentions earlier how pigs are look unclean, while snakes shine holy in the eye, which seems like a very biblical/scriptural judgement.

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Author Q&A / How do Schools identify and draft students?
« on: July 01, 2016, 04:56:55 am »
With possibly just a few thousand Few in the whole of Three Seas, scattered so thinly, it would be a task of tremendous importance and extreme difficulty, since the very survival of Schools hangs on it. Young children with capacity for sorcery don't bear a Mark, so how do Schools identify them?

Achamian recalls a specific moment in childhood when he realized it, and was later taken away by a Mandate Pederasik who claimed Achamian was a "bright child, with great promise" (paraphrasing). But how was he found and identified as one of the Few? Is there something else essential that sticks out about them, aside from Mark, before they become sorcerers? Or is there testing involved? Schools' recruiters traveling around on the lookout for "bright children" and administering tests ala Kellhus activating Wathi doll or Mimara holding Achamian's Surillic Point without being sorcerers themselves at the time?

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Author Q&A / What did Dunyain do for food in Ishual?
« on: June 25, 2016, 07:46:13 am »
Did they have agriculture, crops & domestic animals? Or hunting & gathering? From the books' description of Ishual (and TGO preview), it seems to be surrounded closely by woods, without any agricultural land.

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Question
What is the nature of No-God? What is contained in the Carapace?

Prediction
No-God is re-animated head of Cu'jara-Cinmoi, probably with his soul bound to it, in a confused returned-from-the-dead state, hence the WHAT AM I? question No-God always asks. TTT Glossary description of Cu'jara-Cinmoi death "... fought his way to Cu'jara-Cinmoi's position, but found only his headless body." was a giant Chekhov's Head (heh) for me - why mention such a specific detail, if it's irrelevant? And the recent excerpt from Grimdark Magazine also mentions "There is a head on a pole behind you." - as it describes Kellhus visiting Outside.

Prediction
Moenghus the Elder didn't die at the end of TTT. Rather he spoke to Kellhus from a secure undisclosed location, remotely controlling another Cishaurim's body made to look similar to his own as a precaution. It was mentioned previously that Moenghus was bad at most Psukhe practices requiring faith & passion, but very good at those requiring subtlety and intellect - such as his ability to send dreams to Dunyain at Ishual or to have Skauras speak with Xerius via his own body. After Kellhus left, and his sorcerous puppet died at the hand of Cnaiur, Moegnhus suffered a profound feedback shock, but also came to believe Kellhus's arguments and gained tremendous amount of faith becoming Meppa.

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