[TGO Spoilers] The Judging Eye - Is it objective truth?

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MSJ

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« Reply #45 on: July 27, 2016, 04:08:07 pm »
I'm the redneck (Wv), aren't you from PA (quaker)? Lol, but we can call it whatever you want. The point is we admit to not knowing much on the subject. In fact, I've been schooled on the subject while reading Bakker.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #46 on: July 27, 2016, 04:21:53 pm »
I'm the redneck (Wv), aren't you from PA (quaker)? Lol, but we can call it whatever you want. The point is we admit to not knowing much on the subject. In fact, I've been schooled on the subject while reading Bakker.

Origionally I'm actually from NY but I do like oatmeal,  ;).  I might take you up on it if I had even a modicum of free-time.  Right now though, wife on bed-rest, baby being a baby, three weeks from another plus 4 more older ones, I am often lucky if I have time to use the bathroom, haha.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #47 on: July 27, 2016, 04:25:11 pm »
Haha, I was sincerely just kidding, lol. H, I would have no clue what to talk about or where to begin. But, just to hash this out - The Philosophical Musings of a Redneck and a Yankee!
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Madness

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« Reply #48 on: July 27, 2016, 07:46:40 pm »
On topic, I just want to reiterate again, that there being a *proper and consistent* way to act in Earwa does not mean that the Judging Eye is actually representative of that *proper and consistent* way to act (though, it seems to be the case).

As a modern person talking to other modern people I'd like to be able to use the modern definition of morality in this discussion.  However since Bakker did make an alternate definition, we shouldn't ignore it just make the differentiation.  So having said that, in my own analysis, the only objective difference between the two seems to be the objective role of damnation and salvation.  I believe that on Earwa that's what morality means and it makes sense.  Attaining salvation is moral.  Attaining Damnation is immoral.  For us modern folk, who stand outside those beliefs, we can still judge those actions based on our own sense of morality.  I find it more than moral, righteous even, to be a Mandate Schoolman, and suffer eternal damnation just to save the world. 

So it's not that Bakker is wrong or I want to dismiss his definition.  I just want to make the distinction because Earwa's definition of the word and ours so use damnation/salvation to refer to the two sides of the coin that is morality in Earwa.  This frees up the word itself for its modern definition.

I think, MGM, that you've hit upon a crux of this discussion. Bakker after all is communicating with readers anachronistically, despite the choice of medium. I just don't think we're at all representative of his intended audience.

Many of us here, clearly have a "moral compass" rather than an ideological morality (not that our disparate moral commitments couldn't possibly constitute an ideology, which would also be an interesting discussion aside). Many of us here probably accept our moral compasses as given, even if many of us have grown out of an ideological morality: I'm raised Roman Catholic and really, really, believed from the inside of that IM until I was about 17 - around the time that I realized I'm fucking Damned, which probably had nothing to do with my change in commitments ;) . My Mom, in fact, wrote my older sister and I a letter about two years ago that she continues to be worried and horrified that she won't be able to spend eternity with us... because we're Damned. And I have a friend of a friend who has repeatedly given up on the series and disparages Bakker because Bakker works to invalidate the reader's faith (which is abhorrent, apparently).

And this is where our discussion here becomes increasingly problematic - even more so because as MSJ mentions this is a conversation which has dominated the One-Thread Famine at Westeros and a conversation I've never really been particularly interested in having personally. I don't know Bakker's intentions but I assume that a more representative target audience are fantasy readers at that edge-space between living inside an ideological morality and having a "moral compass."

Anyhow... Ranty McRanterson over here, no idea if I had a point, but I thought it might help complicate our ongoing discussion in another interesting way :).
« Last Edit: July 27, 2016, 07:49:30 pm by Madness »
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MSJ

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« Reply #49 on: July 27, 2016, 08:14:45 pm »
Great post, Madness.

Yea, I don't think it complicated it anymore than what your post says is what complicated it in the first place. That's it, I would hope all of us have a "moral compass" and live according to that. Its what makes understanding what Bakker is doing on Earwa very, very hard to most of us. Being born a woman make you a lesser soul, pigs are holy, snakes are not. So just by being born a woman on Earwa you are already less of a soul no matter how nice you are or how well you live your life. That's something that's real hard to wrap your head around, I know it was for me. But, what I think he is trying to do, and again I am probably the least capable person of answering this question, is show us the cruelty of a world were it does exist. That's how cruel Earwa is.

Now, notice, even though Mimara is a lesser soul by virtue of just being a woman, she is also the only person we've seen so far that is HOLY. Its all very freaking confusing to me. And, the stuff I quoted on Koringhus somewhere where he learns what is holy and pure, could be a picture book of Mimara's life. Though, remember, she was cruel to Esme, very cruel. So, I'm not claiming to know what's what and how it all works. Morality is objective on Earwa and we are learning what is holy.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

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« Reply #50 on: July 28, 2016, 09:40:01 am »
I just want to share with you guys something that happened tonight. Here I am arguing that morality is objective and I go to check out Westeros, and the poster (@Kalbear) who I've argued with for the last two years against morality being objective - had a PM for me. He said he thought it was funny that I was "trumpeting" the morality is objective argument after having argued against it for so long. Which it is. But, as I said, I'm really not qualified for this argument and most of what I know about what Bakker is trying to do, I've learned through my arguments with Kalbear. The Ishual chapter and Bakker's answer to my "belief" question sealed it for me. Because it was the exact shit Kalbear had been saying for the past two years. Anyway, in my defense to his message I said there are reasons people don't understand what he's trying to do, it doesn't fit with what we're brought up to know in our world. He gave me a great response which I think will help others realize a little bit better what is at work on Earwa with morality being objective. Here's his response, which I asked if I could use.

Quote
It's tough because it's so...wrong. Because it's hard to think that those kind of things - things like morality - are something that can be put into objective truths. It's completely against our moral paradigm.

But in an intentional world, where everything has meaning, that also means everything is weighed. Everything has value. And that means everything is judged. That judgment and value does not, in any way, mean that it's influenced by us, any more than we can influence the speed of light in a vacuum or we can influence the Planck length.

I think one of the reasons that we object to it is that it is a fundamental unfairness. The entire universe says women aren't as good as men, for no good reason? They're born that way and boom, they get to be on a harder difficulty? How the hell is that fair? But that's sort of the point. That was, effectively, how the universe was for women back in the day.

Where I think Bakker fails is that in the real world, in spite of women being viewed that way, there were still exceptional women who managed to do great things and overcome that adversity - just like there are today. And you can acknowledge that they had a harder time and still overcame it without diminishing it. Bakker essentially says that said bootstrapping is a conceit he doesn't want to indulge in, and makes it fundamentally more oppressive than anything else.

But yeah, that's where he's going. He's going for a world where everything is weighed, ordered, valued and judged, and that includes what sex you are.

So there, I think that sums up very nicely what's going on. If you have any questions I doubt I can answer them, honestly. I really wish that this could further out discussion. I think there is a lot to discuss here, what with Earwa being a meaningful world and what comes about from that.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 09:08:33 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

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« Reply #51 on: July 29, 2016, 09:17:23 pm »
Also, Mimara notes with the JE that snakes are holy and pigs are not. I'd assume this ties into the use of snakes with the Cishaurim.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 11:14:24 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,