Speculiction's What Comes Next!

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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #45 on: September 22, 2017, 03:16:51 pm »
The dreams of Seswatha are quite a strange thing to be honest. Part of his soul must be trapped in his mummified heart.

MSJ

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« Reply #46 on: September 22, 2017, 08:10:37 pm »
Quote from:  SmilerLoki
Or it's the overwhelming majority of their dreams to the point of everything else being overlooked because of their expectation aggravated by the rarity of possible outliers. Seems like human nature to me.

I guess what your doing is projecting your thoughts and feelings on what you think is true. I have offered quotes and could offer many more, that what your implying is not true textually. And, that's all we have to go by, not fan-fiction. So, I ask you is there any proof in the text to back up your claim? Because we have argued at length over this without any textual evidence from you. I'm not being a smartass and I understand your thoughts. Its just in the context of the series, we're not giving any textual evidence to back up your claim.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 09:08:42 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

greenshift

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« Reply #47 on: September 22, 2017, 08:36:25 pm »
The dreams of Seswatha are quite a strange thing to be honest. Part of his soul must be trapped in his mummified heart.

Like the Amiolas? Seswatha did wear the thing three times and I believe he commented that the information he learned was invaluable (don't recall the exact phrasing). Initially this 'information' comes across as being related to retrieving the Heron Spear, but perhaps it's true value was from some understanding of the principles of the Amiolas that allowed the creation of the Heart. Still unsure what all the implications would be if so...

MSJ

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« Reply #48 on: September 22, 2017, 10:11:15 pm »
Quote from:  tleilaxu
The dreams of Seswatha are quite a strange thing to be honest. Part of his soul must be trapped in his mummified heart.

Definitely, some seem to think it's like Shae's soul trapping larvae guys, some compare it to the Wathii Doll. Regardless, it his soul trapped in there and the Grasping a bit of that is passed on to the Mandati who grasps. Its how the Gnostic was protected all those years, because even under torture, Seswatha would take over and not relent. I believe it's also a goad, the dreams that is, to keep the Mandate vigilant. Reliving the horrors of the 1st Apocalypse every night.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #49 on: September 22, 2017, 10:38:47 pm »
I guess what your doing is projecting your thoughts and feelings on what you think is true. I have offered quotes and could offer many more, that what your implying is not true textually. And, that's all we have to go by, not fan-fiction. So, I ask you is there any proof in the text to back up your claim? Because we have argued at length over this without any textual evidence from you. I'm not being a smartass and I understand your thoughts. Its just in the context of the series, we're not giving any textual evidence to back up your claim.
It' s quite simple. All of our evidence (really, all of it, so it's strange for me to offer it, it's the series in its entirety, just look how every quote you give is taken from Achamian's POV) comes only from Achamian's perspective, and that perspective is by definition flawed. What we know is his educated opinion, not the truth. He also just plainly can't explain some things, changes in his dream included. It's something unknown to him.

It's not even Achamian being unreliable, it's strictly the limits of his POV that just isn't in possession of absolute knowledge.

Also, I should note that I list possible outliers (and can list many more of those), not facts that are strictly confirmed in the narrative. When I say that someone else could've seen a mundane Dream and not catalogued it, I don't mean that it's actually happened in the narrative (just like Ajokli hasn't clearly happened until he had), what I mean is, the facts Achamian presents can also incorporate such a possibility, and not only be interpreted the way he interprets them, because he is also dealing in conjectures. He had access to the Mandate archives, sure, but it's ludicrous to think he read everything collected there. He presumably talked to others ("off-screen") about Seswatha's Dreams, but of course he hasn't talked with everyone or even with the majority of the Mandate throughout history. So when he says "no one has dreamed this way", it's what he thinks, it strictly cannot be taken as an indisputable truth. I never dispute what his opinion looks like, but his opinion is based on many conjectures, the same as ours. I don't understand you bringing it forward as in-universe facts (and in this sense all quotes you bring are evidence of his opinion, and not textual evidence of something being strictly so in Earwa). Do you think his opinion is always factually correct?

I understand that you trust his opinion, but it's a long shot away from calling it evidence of things working exactly the way he theorizes them to.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 11:06:43 pm by SmilerLoki »

MSJ

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« Reply #50 on: September 22, 2017, 11:14:32 pm »
But his opinions match those of Mandate catchphrases, these new dreams are backed up by textual confirmation, which I've posted about. Akka is our only POV into that of Mandate dreams, that's correct. But, it's the authors way of conveying everything about the dreams. It's simple, her SmilerLoki, you're making things up...fan-fiction. I'm offering textual evidence. And, in the end these new dreams are confirmed. What else do you want. It seems your unwilling to concede that your wrong. When is for textual evidence that other Mandate have dreamed like Akka, you offer none, not once. It's just conjecture after conjecture. When you can show me some textual evidence that I am wrong then I continue the conversation. Til, then I'm done with what you think and make up in your head. Sorry, I am seriously trying to not be rude. But, as I said your offering zero in terms of textual evidence And that's all that matters. I've offered plenty to back up my position, you....none. I can't argue with these thoughts your making up in your mind, I can only argue the text. What you want to be the case, simply isn't and in now where in 7 books is there the tiniest bit of evidence to support your argument. This isn't a argument in good faith anymore. Just you saying, "No, well maybe the did have these dreams and just didn't realize it, blah, blah , blah." Which makes zero sense, when the author makes a not of, "Seswatha never shift.". Why would he do that for any other reason but to show that what Akka is experiencing is quite in fact unique?
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #51 on: September 23, 2017, 12:13:34 am »
But his opinions match those of Mandate catchphrases, these new dreams are backed up by textual confirmation, which I've posted about.
I don't follow this at all, those dreams are backed up by what confirmation and to what end? You mean, his new dreams exist? Sure. That some information in them is corroborated by other sources? Sure, but only some information, not all of it. As I understand it, you take corroboration of some things in Achamian's dreams as corroboration of others (like the map to Ishual or Nau-Cayuti's fate validating the dream about the Heron Spear missing), which is not how it works. Many things about Nau-Cayuti are confirmed, but the dream with the Heron Spear missing is not only completely unconfirmed, it's in contention with other dreams, and also can be viewed as a dream of completely different kind than Nay-Cayuti ones. The same with the map to Ishual.

Nothing in your quotes disproves this interpretation. Do you think otherwise?

Akka is our only POV into that of Mandate dreams, that's correct. But, it's the authors way of conveying everything about the dreams.
POV is a narrative tool with quite specific properties, its inherent unreliability among them, if not being the most important one. My point is, here POV is used exactly the way it should be, giving us information, but leaving up possibilities of interpretation and, most importantly, doubt. Even the POV character himself here doubts his own opinion.

It's simple, her SmilerLoki, you're making things up...fan-fiction. I'm offering textual evidence.
Again, I'm sorry, but I don't follow. What exactly did I make up in your opinion?

And, in the end these new dreams are confirmed.
Confirmed how? You confuse me. Nothing in your quotes indisputably backs up your theory, those quotes can be just as well read differently. That has been my point for some time in this thread.

What else do you want. It seems your unwilling to concede that your wrong.
I'm becoming more and more convinced that you just misunderstand me completely.

When is for textual evidence that other Mandate have dreamed like Akka, you offer none, not once.
Here is a good example why. I'm not telling there is evidence of other dreams like Achamian's. I don't understand why you would think so. I'm postulating 2 things. First, it's the fact that we know there are no other dreams like his only from his words. It's not a fact, the possibility of other such dreams is not ruled out. The second thing follows from here. If there are no dreams like Achamian's, for sure, then we have him as the only outlier (so it very well might be not the Dreams, but him who's important here). A set of theories can be offered from here, but they are all contingent on the fact that Achamian is the only outlier. If there are actually other dreams like his, meaning he is not the only outlier, than it's more likely the Dreams themselves are important and not him, which opens way for a second set of theories, now contingent on the fact that Achamian's not the only outlier. This information is vital for further logical examination of the problem, without it such examination is just not possible, because at least 2 branching sets of theories (actually more, since there are more important points that create their own sets of theories, I just brought up this one as an example) need to be examined, all of them having similar weight. Nothing then can be narrowed down, and the whole exercise is counterproductive because of the sheer amount of possibilities. That was my starting point, if you remember.

I've offered plenty to back up my position, you....none.
It baffles me that you think so. To my knowledge, I have demonstrated how every quote you brought can be interpreted differently. Which, again, was the point I've started with. There are just too many interpretation of similar weight to focus on just one. There is no logical way to consider one interpretation more likely than all the others.

This isn't a argument in good faith anymore. Just you saying, "No, well maybe the did have these dreams and just didn't realize it, blah, blah , blah."
This makes me almost certain that you misunderstood why I brought the unreliability of Achamian's opinion up.

I agree, it's then better to leave it as it is. I also get a feeling that it's no longer pleasant for you to continue our discussion. It's not in any way very important, so we can just agree to disagree.

Which makes zero sense, when the author makes a not of, "Seswatha never shift.". Why would he do that for any other reason but to show that what Akka is experiencing is quite in fact unique?
Bakker creates a world with its own history, customs, and biases, and those things are not products of logic and reason. He encourages us to doubt and challenge them, to not blindly believe words, authorities, and opinions. Many things during our own history were believed in to then be completely overturned. I feel it's very realistic of Bakker to treat Earwa similarly. So this Mandate saying, bearing weight of countless voices behind it, might only stifle the truth and not reflect it. Just like it was once confidently said that the Sun revolves around the Earth in our world. People were killed because of it. 

Basically, where you see neat narrative confirmation, I see layered world-building, underlining complexity of human and historical interactions.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2017, 12:29:33 am by SmilerLoki »

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« Reply #52 on: September 23, 2017, 02:14:51 am »
The dreams of Seswatha are quite a strange thing to be honest. Part of his soul must be trapped in his mummified heart.

This thread might be difficult to parse... I'm almost thinking we make/revive one specifically to discuss Seswatha/Achamian's dreams.

But Bakker did tell the draft-reading Nascenti we could discuss director's cut notation with the greater fandom and there are sections chopped from TGO/TUC that all but confirm the "Seswatha's soul is preserved in his Heart" speculation.
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JerakoKayne

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« Reply #53 on: September 23, 2017, 04:08:16 am »
The dreams of Seswatha are quite a strange thing to be honest. Part of his soul must be trapped in his mummified heart.

This thread might be difficult to parse... I'm almost thinking we make/revive one specifically to discuss Seswatha/Achamian's dreams.

But Bakker did tell the draft-reading Nascenti we could discuss director's cut notation with the greater fandom and there are sections chopped from TGO/TUC that all but confirm the "Seswatha's soul is preserved in his Heart" speculation.

That's the kind of stuff that sounds crucial to our understanding of the story. Please do?

MSJ

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« Reply #54 on: September 23, 2017, 06:31:00 pm »
So Akka having a dream that the map to Ishual is in the Library at Sauglish and the finding it there is not proof? His dreams the Nayu is the wretch led to the Carapace and the Mutiated confirmed this, is proof? I don't know man, again your not arguing in good faith using the text as evidence. Make up your fan-fiction as you've seen want to do.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TheCulminatingApe

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« Reply #55 on: September 23, 2017, 08:57:50 pm »
The dreams of Seswatha are quite a strange thing to be honest. Part of his soul must be trapped in his mummified heart.

This thread might be difficult to parse... I'm almost thinking we make/revive one specifically to discuss Seswatha/Achamian's dreams.

But Bakker did tell the draft-reading Nascenti we could discuss director's cut notation with the greater fandom and there are sections chopped from TGO/TUC that all but confirm the "Seswatha's soul is preserved in his Heart" speculation.

That's the kind of stuff that sounds crucial to our understanding of the story. Please do?

And Kellhus 'spoke' to Seswatha
Sez who?
Seswatha, that's who.

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #56 on: September 24, 2017, 02:09:48 am »
The dreams of Seswatha are quite a strange thing to be honest. Part of his soul must be trapped in his mummified heart.

This thread might be difficult to parse... I'm almost thinking we make/revive one specifically to discuss Seswatha/Achamian's dreams.

But Bakker did tell the draft-reading Nascenti we could discuss director's cut notation with the greater fandom and there are sections chopped from TGO/TUC that all but confirm the "Seswatha's soul is preserved in his Heart" speculation.

That's the kind of stuff that sounds crucial to our understanding of the story. Please do?

And Kellhus 'spoke' to Seswatha
Ah yeah I forgot about that part. Wonder if there's a clue in there to how Shaeönanra may have survived (if he's not in the mutilated).

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #57 on: September 24, 2017, 03:14:44 am »
So Akka having a dream that the map to Ishual is in the Library at Sauglish and the finding it there is not proof? His dreams the Nayu is the wretch led to the Carapace and the Mutiated confirmed this, is proof? I don't know man, again your not arguing in good faith using the text as evidence. Make up your fan-fiction as you've seen want to do.
Again I don't seem to understand how this follows from my posts. I also don't really get your personal attack about fanfiction and feel it's completely unwarranted. If you're disagreeing, that's your right, and it's absolutely fine. Demeaning my opinion, on the other hand, is not acceptable to me. Is it acceptable to you?

The map to Ishual validates the dream with the map to Ishual. The dreams with Nau-Cayuti are validated to a serious extent by the Mutilated. The dream with the Heron Spear missing is not validated by anything, the dreams about the map and Nau-Cayuti included. Firstly, those were different dreams from the Heron Spear one. Secondly, their properties are not the same as in the dream with the Heron Spear missing. The dreams about the map and Nau-Cayuti give us new information in new (different in both cases) ways, but they don't directly contradict existing historical accounts (not all of them, at least). The dream with the Heron Spear missing does. Do you see this distinction?

I should also note that this distinction may or may not be important, I'm not saying it definitely is (I don't, and, more significantly, think that I presently can't know, since there is not enough information given to the readers). But its importance is key for further logical examination of the problem, because it leads to different sets of largely mutually exclusive theories of equal weight.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2017, 04:30:21 am by SmilerLoki »

TheCulminatingApe

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« Reply #58 on: September 24, 2017, 06:05:03 pm »
The dreams of Seswatha are quite a strange thing to be honest. Part of his soul must be trapped in his mummified heart.

This thread might be difficult to parse... I'm almost thinking we make/revive one specifically to discuss Seswatha/Achamian's dreams.

But Bakker did tell the draft-reading Nascenti we could discuss director's cut notation with the greater fandom and there are sections chopped from TGO/TUC that all but confirm the "Seswatha's soul is preserved in his Heart" speculation.

That's the kind of stuff that sounds crucial to our understanding of the story. Please do?

And Kellhus 'spoke' to Seswatha
Ah yeah I forgot about that part. Wonder if there's a clue in there to how Shaeönanra may have survived (if he's not in the mutilated).

Or a clue to what happened to Kellhus?
Sez who?
Seswatha, that's who.

MSJ

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« Reply #59 on: September 24, 2017, 09:00:07 pm »
@SmilerLoki, we've argued for pages, I understand your position well. I have never not once claimed any proof of the Heron Spear not killing the No-God in the text. There are clues, that that didn't happen. Akka's dream and the fact of Bakker saying the are intentional untruths the WCB and glossary. I agree neither prove the Heron Spear didn't kill the NG. But, that's not what we're arguing here. We've been arguing that Akka's dreams are different and that has been the xrux of the argument. You say their not. Because, maybe someone, sometime ago had those dreams and didn't think them important... That makes absolutely no sense and isn't corroborated in the text. In fact, the opposite is true, that Akka is experiencing something no other Mandati ever has. I already offered my proof for that again and again. I asked you to show me where, in the text, it could be shown that Akka's dreams aren't special and someone probably already had similar ones, because that's your argument against mine.

I use that Akka dreams, have been confirmed and you agree on some level, I guess. And, I'm using that as a sound judgment that maybe his Heron Spear dream is true, too.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,