The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The White-Luck Warrior => Topic started by: Borric on February 08, 2014, 01:34:53 pm
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From the outset i’ll say that I don’t have a clue what that may be.
However, one thing that is related to it I suspect is the destruction of the inrithi religion and its “Gods”.
If he were to orchestrate the obliteration of the great ordeal, and the empire back home (under Esmenets deliberately inept leadership) was to suffer a similar fate.
Would that not in effect take away the vast majority of the “Gods” Support/sustenance, whatever you call what they need to exist?
I don’t think the southern nations need to die off, as they would revert to Fanimry under Fanayals leadership.
With the “Gods” weakened and an army of dammed schoolmen at his command, what would be his next step?
(I would have posted this on the Unholy Consult forum, but there is no tab for new topic.)
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To become God.
ETA: Not a god. The God.
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To become God.
ETA: Not a god. The God.
I agree with FB...
I think he is close enough with his amount of followers to carry enough weight in the "Outside" to be The God of Gods. Not sure he even has to die to accomplish this.
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Why would he want that? What does the God even do?
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If he were to orchestrate the obliteration of the great ordeal, and the empire back home (under Esmenets deliberately inept leadership) was to suffer a similar fate.
I don't know that Esmenet is going to fail.
(I would have posted this on the Unholy Consult forum, but there is no tab for new topic.)
When the old forum was ported, I think... all of us (six of us) democratically (four voted for this - I don't know why I'm guessing, the thread is here somewhere) decided that we keep the Unholy Consult forum pure here until new content. Traditionally, the latest book subforum is the place for future speculation.
Why would he want that? What does the God even do?
Makes existence happen in the first place? Kellhus, Unmoved Mover, First Cause. Gives rise to itself?
I still TUC is going to Layer'd of Revelation our asses so... I don't really have a guess.
But I'm confident that Kellhus wants the Tekne and he will accomplish far more with it than anyone thus far in the series.
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If he wants the Tekne, why not simply join the Consult?
I can think of few limits to his ability to travel to places or accomplish assassinations. As Mimara rightly realises Kellhus could simply have appeared in Akka's tower. The same goes (more or less) for Ishterebinth or Golgoterath or Ishual.
There are already hints that the Great Ordeal is simply a vehicle for transporting the Schools to Golgoterrath. There's a reason he wants the Nonmen there too, impending betrayal notwithstanding.
I agree with you that TUC is going to be a revelation....
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Lol.
Kellhus owns circumstances.
Also, there's no reason to believe he could just "join the Consult." He probably couldn't take on the Erratic Quya, let alone Aurang, Aurax, Mekeritrig, and Shauriatas as well (much less, stop by for tea and tell them how he was mistaken for outing their skin-spies).
But if Kellhus wants a new toy, I'm sure he'll do it on his own terms. Plus there's no reason to think he doesn't want the Tekne to use to help for humanity.
Aside, I'm glad someone else thinks that the Great Ordeal is the ultimate historical chance for repeat Trauma for the Erratic Nonmen.
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I actually thought the threat to Kellhus would have been chorae wielding skin spies rather than the Mages. None of the Consult seemed to have achieved any acts of great valour in the Second Apocalypse...if Akka can hold off Cleric, Kellhus can kick Quya ass.
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I actually thought the threat to Kellhus would have been chorae wielding skin spies rather than the Mages. None of the Consult seemed to have achieved any acts of great valour in the Second Apocalypse...if Akka can hold off Cleric, Kellhus can kick Quya ass.
It's a question of numbers, Gaston.
Achamian barely lives singing nothing but Wards, one on one. And on ZTS Bakker suggested that there are hundreds of Erratics working with the Consult.
How many can Kellhus really take on... 10?
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Hey all! Longtime reader, firsttime poster.
Why would he want that? What does the God even do?
I have no idea, but I wonder if it is a goal since the Dunyain are simply conditioned to master circumstances. So long as they were in Ishual, that's all they mastered, but know that Kellhus is aware of the outside, he has no choice but to ascend as far as he can.
But I think that whatever Kellhus' goal it is going to be just part of Old Moe's pln. Not even sure that Kellhus is in the North.
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Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, mrganondorf.
So long as they were in Ishual, that's all they mastered, but know that Kellhus is aware of the outside, he has no choice but to ascend as far as he can.
How could one determine the true intent of such a man?
The thought struck Cnaiiir that Dunyain monks might be even more inhuman than he had thought. What if things such as truth and meaning had no meaning for them? What if all they did was move and move, like something reptilian, snaking through circumstance after circumstance, consuming soul after soul for the sake of consumption alone? The thought made his scalp prickle.
They called themselves students of the Logos, the Shortest Way. But the shortest way to what?
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That thought from Cnaiur sounds suspiciously like the way some believe the gods devour souls in the Outside.
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That thought from Cnaiur sounds suspiciously like the way some believe the gods devour souls in the Outside.
It does indeed. I remember a Sorweel quote similar to it, where the word "reptilian" is even used again.
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Why would he want that? What does the God even do?
It self moves itself.
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A self moving soul is merely one that has grasped the absolute. Which means understanding the origin of TDTCB.
What I'm understanding people descibing K ascending to is God as the soul that moves everything.
We are ascribing human motivations to Kellhus here. Power for its own sake is not Tao.
Ostensiably, the dunyain do not need to dominate everything to become self moving souls; thus their policy of isolation.
Mastering the tekne would also count as a tool with which to fufill some further goal.
It is clear that Kellhus' ability to dominate and control is not enough to keep the empire whole, manage the ordeal or keep even half the peoples he rules content.
So does he really want the Tekne simply so he can try and cast his yoke into the greater universe? To what end?
Options that I would consider:
A) He's seeking only to prevent the consult from taking absolute domination. (stated goal, and consistent with dunyain action arising only from mission).
B) Striving towards some insane variation of the 'golden path' (not necessary if the God is immanent unless Kellhus believes he is God's instrument).
C) Working towards obliteration and oblivion for all - similar to the consult, but avoiding being caught in their version of Hell (where they become the hundred) in A.
D) He is being manipulated, perhaps by the Thousandfold Thought, Angake, Mog or the Pragmas .
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A self moving soul is merely one that has grasped the absolute. Which means understanding the origin of TDTCB.
Exactly, and I think that's the same as becoming God. Reaching the Absolute is awakening the God, which "sleeps" because it has been split into a million warring splinters (souls). The real world Gnostic-connection comes in here, where Monad (God, the sum of all things, all thoughts, etc.) is another word for Absolute. The two are in interchangable.
In my opinion, the Dunyain's goal is to become God, they just don't realize it. They must dominate everything, come before all circumstance. Just like God. The only way I can see of Awakening the God is by merging all of the souls in the universe together. I assume this is what Kellhus is trying to do. Perhaps it involves the No-God (which does in fact "gather" souls).
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Yeah, that doesn't make much sense. If you become everything, then what is left of you?
Or perhaps you envisage something like the Instumentality Project in Evangelion, which basically equates to obliteration of individuality?
That's something I can get behind as an objective.
If the dunyain need to dominate everything rather than just their own circumstance, why are they cloistered?
To me their objective is quite clearly described as seeking transcendental enlightenment, similar to many eastern spiritual traditions.
There, achieving the absolute means freeing your own soul from the endless repetition of causality.
The dunyain quest seems very similar to that of the Buddha, wherein enlightenment for the individual does not impact on the greater world at all - apart for the progress afforded by their teachings.
Edit: I think allusions to the gnostic tradition would be more aptly attributed to the mandate. Learned, altruistic mystics giving up their souls for the sake of the world and all that.
Dunyain seem unconcerned with spiritual matters such as damnation et al.
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Hmm, I had never thought of the goal of becoming a self-moving soul as distinct from becoming the God. That's really interesting. For my own part, I don't know that Kellhus' goals matter as much as his conditioning. I'm wondering if one of the big reveals in UC is that he's been conditioned from birth forward to be whatever the dunyain/moe need him to be.
I can see the pointlessness of total ascension, but I don't know if it matters to K. I wonder if part of his ultimate utility is the so-called 'madness' that the narrator continues to insist on. If the Outside really is dominated by greater and lesser desires, and if madness is more or less equal to have desires, then the pragmas may need one of their own to develop a grand desire in order to fulfill their purposes: Kellhus.
He really wants to save the world or avenge Serwe or bring Serwe back from the grave or whatever--so long as he desires, he can accomplish their aims in the Outside.
EDIT: breaking up the text
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Option D for you sir ;)
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Sorry Curethan but I just don't agree with that interpretation. The way that obtaining the Absolute has been described, through Kellhus' POV, constantly indicates the importance of dominating circumstances. The existence of the outside demands that it be controlled. An ultimatum is proposed in the books that says that if one does not control circumstance, then you are being controlled. If you are controlled, you do not come before.
I don't have quotes for you but this is why I believe that if a Dunyain achieves their mission, they will become God. There just isn't any differences in being self-moving and controlling everything.
I've heard lots of suggestions that the Dunyain are similar to this or that principle/religion. I think you ought to be careful not to extend such analogies so far that you start ruling out other interpretations because they don't match some kind of "real world" idea.
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Sorry Curethan but I just don't agree with that interpretation. The way that obtaining the Absolute has been described, through Kellhus' POV, constantly indicates the importance of dominating circumstances. The existence of the outside demands that it be controlled. An ultimatum is proposed in the books that says that if one does not control circumstance, then you are being controlled. If you are controlled, you do not come before.
I don't have quotes for you but this is why I believe that if a Dunyain achieves their mission, they will become God. There just isn't any differences in being self-moving and controlling everything.
I've heard lots of suggestions that the Dunyain are similar to this or that principle/religion. I think you ought to be careful not to extend such analogies so far that you start ruling out other interpretations because they don't match some kind of "real world" idea.
Pretty much this. The Dunyain's description in TTT glossary even alludes to how they think down on the idea of the "spiritual enlightenment" the Nilnameshi mystics attempt to achieve, knowing that it's foolish to think such a thing can be done in a single lifetime.
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Wilshire, control is only a mechanism to achieve an end. When a scientist controls the variables in an experiment, he is not trying to control the result.
Absolute, the - Among the Dunyain, the state of becoming "unconditioned", a perfect self-moving soul independent of "what comes before"
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A severe monastic sect that has repudiated history and animal appetite in the name of finding enlightenment through the control of all desire and all circumstance.
The Epistemlogical Principle asserts that knowing what comes before (via the logos) yields "control" of what comes after.
All souls, they claim, possess conatus, the natural striving to be self-moving, to escape the circle of before and after.
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The Dunyain believe that , using reason, they can condition themselves to the point of becoming unconditioned, a perfect, self-moving soul.
For me, terms like independent and escape suggest being separated from, rather than the origin of.
Being able to control world-born souls is only ever presented as a 'side-effect' of the abilities they have developed in order to control themselves and to dominate their own circumstances.
*edit: By cloistering themselves in Ishual the dunyain clearly took the option of removing themselves from the world rather than dominating everything. So there is undeniably more than one way to skin a cat in this 'attaining enlightenment' scenario.
But I digress, the thread is about Kellhus' goals, and he is 'more' than a dunyain. ;)
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For me, terms like independent and escape suggest being separated from, rather than the origin of.
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*edit: By cloistering themselves in Ishual the dunyain clearly took the option of removing themselves from the world rather than dominating everything. So there is undeniably more than one way to skin a cat in this 'attaining enlightenment' scenario.
To the top, I don't actually see these as necessarily separated. What if being independent and escaping (separation from) means being the origin of?
To the bottom, I thought that some of us had reached the consensus that the Project as set in motion by OG Dunyain within Ishual is flerwed - unless it includes leaving Ishual at some point?
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To the top, I don't actually see these as necessarily separated. What if being independent and escaping (separation from) means being the origin of?
What? Provide an analogy please?
Rising from cellmate to the ruler within a prison doesn't mean you have escaped, but it provides you with a better opportunity to escape.
To the bottom, I thought that some of us had reached the consensus that the Project as set in motion by OG Dunyain within Ishual is flerwed - unless it includes leaving Ishual at some point?
Based on the assertion that the Dunyain are trying to rule ze world, that is fair. Atm, I don't agree though - also, I reserve the right to change my mind (or argue devil's advocate) if I have agreed in the past. ;)
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I thought that some of us had reached the consensus that the Project as set in motion by OG Dunyain within Ishual is flerwed - unless it includes leaving Ishual at some point?
Lol, that made me think of dunyain traversing the void in a refurbished ark. :D
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Based on the assertion that the Dunyain are trying to rule ze world, that is fair. Atm, I don't agree though - also, I reserve the right to change my mind (or argue devil's advocate) if I have agreed in the past. ;)
Noted ;)
You are correct though that this is rather off topic and Kellhus is more. Although you probably said that in jest, I think its a fair point. I doubt that Kellhus is still hyper focused on the Dunyain 'mission' at this point, and judging him based solely through the lense of his would-be peers seems wrong.
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Not jesting at all. Sticking to the dunyain objective is only one of the options I consider likely (therefore a fair point for debate) but, like you, I really only think there is a low probability of that.
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Lol, that made me think of dunyain traversing the void in a refurbished ark. :D
Off topic:
Zooming around in the ark always makes me think of the Tenacious D song 'Dethstar' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UltiCqGHj0).
Or is it the other way round?
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To the top, I don't actually see these as necessarily separated. What if being independent and escaping (separation from) means being the origin of?
What? Provide an analogy please?
Rising from cellmate to the ruler within a prison doesn't mean you have escaped, but it provides you with a better opportunity to escape.
Ah, meaning through metaphor. I don't think I referenced one of your earlier posts enough.
Where do you think the Dunyain can escape to literally in Earwa? They get Outside and make their own pocket of desire?
In Earwa, the only thing I'd qualify as being independent or "escaping" is being the Absolute or the Ground of existence. The argument goes that the Solitary God or God of Gods gives enables reality in the first place.
To the bottom, I thought that some of us had reached the consensus that the Project as set in motion by OG Dunyain within Ishual is flerwed - unless it includes leaving Ishual at some point?
Based on the assertion that the Dunyain are trying to rule ze world, that is fair. Atm, I don't agree though - also, I reserve the right to change my mind (or argue devil's advocate) if I have agreed in the past. ;)
Not like that :P. I can't remember as eloquently as it has been put but the Dunyain sought to master an imperfect World by discounting sorcery, history, etc, naturally existing pillars (foundational) of reality.
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I actually thought the threat to Kellhus would have been chorae wielding skin spies rather than the Mages. None of the Consult seemed to have achieved any acts of great valour in the Second Apocalypse...if Akka can hold off Cleric, Kellhus can kick Quya ass.
It's a question of numbers, Gaston.
Achamian barely lives singing nothing but Wards, one on one. And on ZTS Bakker suggested that there are hundreds of Erratics working with the Consult.
How many can Kellhus really take on... 10?
I'd be more worried about the twins. The Inchoroi mastered biotech so long ago that they eventually forgot how to do it. They piled graft after graft, enhancement after enhancemet, onto themselves for untold millenia. I'd imagine that Aurang and Aurax are extremely powerful Gnostic sorcerors. And their alien minds may be able to do some very weird shit with it. I don't really think we should assume that Kellhus is the greatest living sorceror on Earwa.
Hell, look at what Aurang did to Esmenet. Not merely a compulsion, but a full possession. For a time, she was Aurang. And that was done while Aurang was in a synthese, and very far from his actual body, both of which I get the impression make for serious attenuation of his actual magical power.
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And their alien minds may be able to do some very weird shit with it. I don't really think we should assume that Kellhus is the greatest living sorceror on Earwa.
Hell, look at what Aurang did to Esmenet. Not merely a compulsion, but a full possession. For a time, she was Aurang. And that was done while Aurang was in a synthese, and very far from his actual body, both of which I get the impression make for serious attenuation of his actual magical power.
I agree with your above points - however, I think that the bottom example is just how Compulsion works. Perhaps the fact that any of Aurang's memories leak through could be evidence of performing a Compulsion badly, as the "Great Shout," the distance between Aurang's true form and the Synthese.
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+1 Sharmat! Had not been thinking about alien mind + magic! I'm going to have to get a lot of popcorn for all the badass sorcery in TUC...BUT how far can Bakker go? Ain't there some kind of limit on how fucking awesome a person can write descriptions of this shit? What's going to be left for TBTSNBN?
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Tigra, the strongest human sorcerer of all time could take out one of the twins and the Mangaecca grand master at the same time with ease. (At least that’s the impression I took away from the false sun)
I can’t see kellhus having a problem with them.
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I also got the impression. The Mangecca were Gnostic as well right? Not sure on how the timelines goes, but it could have been that the Inchoroi hadn't had the Gnosis for very long? At that point you've just got Titirga vs Shae.. But Titirga's confidence is a bit unnerving considering how intelligent Shae was.
There was certainly something special about Titirga, so I don't think his prowess can be extended to Kellhus. However, given that Kellhus is pretty damn special, I don't think we can rule out him being superior to any magi left alive.
Besides, Kellhus can teleport. Even if he doesn't possess the raw brute strength required to take on an concert of enemy magi, he can just warp right up next to them and shank them, just like he did at Shimeh.
Nah but seriously he can only take on some many by himself. Eventually, like in the beginning with the sranc, sheer numbers would probably take him down, though the toll would be horrific.
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Tigra, the strongest human sorcerer of all time could take out one of the twins and the Mangaecca grand master at the same time with ease. (At least that’s the impression I took away from the false sun)
He didn't, though.
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There was certainly something special about Titirga, so I don't think his prowess can be extended to Kellhus. However, given that Kellhus is pretty damn special, I don't think we can rule out him being superior to any magi left alive.
We have a heirarchy list going and being revised... somewhere...
This is Trisk's (http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=773.msg11929#msg11929), mine own is a couple posts down and posters added various amendments.
But Titirga has to be a cypher of some kind (in my head, anyways)...
Tigra, the strongest human sorcerer of all time could take out one of the twins and the Mangaecca grand master at the same time with ease. (At least that’s the impression I took away from the false sun)
I can’t see kellhus having a problem with them.
Tigra, the strongest human sorcerer of all time could take out one of the twins and the Mangaecca grand master at the same time with ease. (At least that’s the impression I took away from the false sun)
He didn't, though.
As I mentioned to Gaston in another thread, Kellhus being, one on one, the most powerful sorcercer in the world (if this is true), doesn't actually matter in these kinds of considerations. Kellhus couldn't take on the Consult-Four alone. The Consult also have "hundreds" of Quyan Erratics...
So can he take on 5? 10?
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Tigra, the strongest human sorcerer of all time could take out one of the twins and the Mangaecca grand master at the same time with ease. (At least that’s the impression I took away from the false sun)
He didn't, though.
In the most literal sense, no. But if he was going to be nbd why make the trap? Shae and the Aurang are both fairly vain individuals, I imagine they would have enjoyed burning Titirga to a crisp. Thats why the impression is that they were afraid they would lose. After all, its not like they were worried about collateral damage, so I see no logical reason to trick him to death rather than to save their own lives.
As I mentioned to Gaston in another thread, Kellhus being, one on one, the most powerful sorcercer in the world (if this is true), doesn't actually matter in these kinds of considerations. Kellhus couldn't take on the Consult-Four alone. The Consult also have "hundreds" of Quyan Erratics...
So can he take on 5? 10?
But it also isn't just Kellhus. He needs some magi on his side. If he has enough destructive force to overcome even 2 or 3 Quya, he could warp around the battlefield and destroy the enemy sorcerers one at a time. Or, he could warp himself and a small contingent of ward-singers to the same effect. The fact that he is so powerful and so mobile is extremely important.
Numbers are almost meaningless unless for some reason Kellhus is separate from all support against a large contingent of enemies. He can basically use Gorilla tactics against a larger force that is more powerful, or brute force if he has the upper hand in power.
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This reminds me of the last season of Yu Yu Hakusho, where the 3 demon factions are gearing up for a massive conflict. Basically it comes down to the top 1 or 2 most powerful players on each side (in the show). I guess in this case there are only 2 sides, and it will come down to the top few schoolmen, but the results are the same. Everyone who isn't in the top, say 5, is a non-factor since the differences in power are order of magnitude.
Also, without knowing how much more powerful Kellhus is/isn't its really hard to say how much he can do. If he can take on 1-5 Quya on his own, hes not that much of a threat. If its 10-20 or 20-30, things change extremely quickly. Too many unknowns. The way is too narrow.
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I'm hoping for a dunyain gnosis concert...then they all die from something unconsidered.
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WLW shows up at an impossible moment and ruins all the plans.
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As I mentioned to Gaston in another thread, Kellhus being, one on one, the most powerful sorcercer in the world (if this is true), doesn't actually matter in these kinds of considerations. Kellhus couldn't take on the Consult-Four alone. The Consult also have "hundreds" of Quyan Erratics...
So can he take on 5? 10?
But it also isn't just Kellhus. He needs some magi on his side. If he has enough destructive force to overcome even 2 or 3 Quya, he could warp around the battlefield and destroy the enemy sorcerers one at a time. Or, he could warp himself and a small contingent of ward-singers to the same effect. The fact that he is so powerful and so mobile is extremely important.
Numbers are almost meaningless unless for some reason Kellhus is separate from all support against a large contingent of enemies. He can basically use Gorilla tactics against a larger force that is more powerful, or brute force if he has the upper hand in power.
Stupid Cant of Transposition.
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Also, without knowing how much more powerful Kellhus is/isn't its really hard to say how much he can do. If he can take on 1-5 Quya on his own, hes not that much of a threat. If its 10-20 or 20-30, things change extremely quickly. Too many unknowns. The way is too narrow.
+1. Golgotterath is too far...
WLW shows up at an impossible moment and ruins all the plans.
White-Luck Warrior vs. All the Dunyain :o?! It would be an amazing sword fight - am I the only one who wants more goddamn mundane duels in these books?
Cnaiur vs. Sarcellus the Second was such an epic conclusion to a book!
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+1 more mundane duals.
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Awesome mundane duels to hope for:
Young Moe vs Consult Erratic
Kayutas vs Consult Somebodies
Nau-Kayuti killing folks in the Ark
Theliopa surprises everyone with dagger duel vs WLW
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Kayutas unleashed is something I hope to see in TUC. He surely must have his father's abilities of limb (war) ;).
Moenghus the Younger... yes, I can only hope he exercises his father's fury. Unfortunately for the boys, Serwa has to protect them because they have no Chorae. I love it :D.
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I wonder if using the meta-gnosis in the Ark is going to be problematic--not only is it going to be covered with the oldest/strongest wards anywhere, it's also so topoi that doing something as 'deeply marked' as meta-gnosis would do weird things.
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Achamian and Cleric seemed to work sorcery fine in Cil-Aujas?
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Kayutas unleashed is something I hope to see in TUC. He surely must have his father's abilities of limb (war) ;).
limb = tree. Pragma training. Its all circular.
I wonder if using the meta-gnosis in the Ark is going to be problematic--not only is it going to be covered with the oldest/strongest wards anywhere, it's also so topoi that doing something as 'deeply marked' as meta-gnosis would do weird things.
Not sure about the topoi, but the Consult probably spent thousands of years singing wards around their precious home.
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Golgotterath has to truly be something special if the Consult is still willing to reside there despite it almost certainly being a thin spot dangling over Hell. Their fetid souls are so utterly rife with sin I imagine they attract quite a lot of attention.
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Their fetid souls are so utterly rife with sin I imagine they attract quite a lot of attention.
I wonder if any of the Gods in particular have picked up on them.
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Golgotterath has to truly be something special if the Consult is still willing to reside there despite it almost certainly being a thin spot dangling over Hell. Their fetid souls are so utterly rife with sin I imagine they attract quite a lot of attention.
I agree, though I'd like to be picky and say its not "hell" but rather "outside". I think the only instance of "hell" we have might be the description of what the IF shows. If not there, then I think Bakker has carefully avoided that word. Then again, I could be wrong. I should probably look things up before I call it out :P.
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Golgotterath has to truly be something special if the Consult is still willing to reside there despite it almost certainly being a thin spot dangling over Hell. Their fetid souls are so utterly rife with sin I imagine they attract quite a lot of attention.
I agree, though I'd like to be picky and say its not "hell" but rather "outside". I think the only instance of "hell" we have might be the description of what the IF shows. If not there, then I think Bakker has carefully avoided that word. Then again, I could be wrong. I should probably look things up before I call it out :P.
LOL, I don't think you meant this, but the first thing that popped into my head was that the Ark is a topoi close to heaven! That the inverse fire shows them heaven and it is so pure, they know they don't belong!
Kudos for pointing that out, can't wait to see what he's hiding...
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All souls are dangling over hell. The connection to the outside is through the soul. Topoi are not portals to another 'place' any more than the outside is a physical location, imo.
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But what of the descriptions we have of Topoi, being a kind of "high point", suggesting some kind of closeness to the outside. Words like "frayed boundaries" and other descriptions seem to allude to the fact that, given enough trauma, a wormwhole of sorts could be punched through the fabric of space and into the outside. At least thats the feeling I always got.
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All souls are dangling over hell. The connection to the outside is through the soul. Topoi are not portals to another 'place' any more than the outside is a physical location, imo.
You made me think of Jonathan Edwards
"The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else"
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/edwards/sermons.sinners.html
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Yes, the analogies to distance and place muddy the waters.
Physical things are related to their meanings in the Outside - unnatural amounts of transformative power bleed through in Topoi or is otherwise channeled by sorcerers.
Its more like translucence than proximity, I think. For example, the Few see fixed relations between meaning and being more clearly, the Judging Eye seems to veiw this relationship from a causal perspective, but neither of them see further.
Topoi seem to allow the Hell parts of the Outside leak through because they are probably created by infusing the physical area with meaning related to suffering.
It doesn't matter where the damned die though, they will still end up in their own Hell.
After looking in the Inverse Fire (which the consult venerate), proximity to a Topoi would probably just be like sitting near a nice warm heater.
Regarding the gods, they just don't seem that interested in the damned. Ciphrang get those souls.
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Not sure where you got those distinctions.
You are using Hell as a place "in" the outside, which to me implies that the opposite is in there somewhere (heaven?). I don't believe a happy place has been described, just pain/suffering or nothingness. Both those options seems like hell to me.
Regarding the gods, they just don't seem that interested in the damned. Ciphrang get those souls.
I thought Ciphrang only got the souls of those that summon them.
Interesting distinction between damned and Gods. If there is some kind of catch-all Hell, if there a "god" presiding over it? If the Gods are what cause damnation, which God decides a damnable action from a commendable one?
Maybe souls are assigned a supervisory god upon birth, and their soul is always judged based on that Gods opinions regardless of how the person turns out. i.e. Gilgaol would damn anyone who wasn't warlike even if they where "good" people.
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The more powerful entities of the Outside dwell in "sub realities" that conform to their desires. This is what makes piety and devotion so important: the more favour an individual can secure in the Outside (primarily through the worship of Gods and the honouring of ancestors), the greater the chance of finding bliss rather than torment in the afterlife.
According to Psatma, one must 'reach' for whichever entity one hopes to have intervene - which implies the Gods themselves don't judge as much as select the souls with attributes (judgements?) that suit their purpose or interest. So a soul like Conphas' would be of little interest to anyone besides Ciphrrang.
Iirc, Mimarra turns TJE on one of the Skin Eaters (Galian, I think) and sees the future of his soul as being passed around in the afterlife from Ciphrang to Ciphrang as they feast on his suffering.
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What I get stuck on is the Yatwer afterlife. The Yatwer devotees expect to suffer if chosen by Yatwer, something about "knowing your tormentor" sticks out in my mind, but I know if thats a quote or not. It would seem that reaching your chosen deity does not guarantee bliss, which further makes me think that the TTT description is false, at least in part. There is no guarantee of "bliss", and there might not be any at all, just a construct of the human mind of what should happen if you live your life correctly. The Holy should be rewarded... right?
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Wilshire, are you referring to the bit in WLW p. 240? Convo between Psatma and Meppa. It's a few pages into chapter 8--i don't have it digitally or i would quote it, but it seems like a long relevant section.
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That is an arguement between a Fanim Cish and an Inrithi priestess as seen by a Zeum sorcerer. I'm more wary of lies and deceit there than in the Glossary.
Clearly there is some truth in what each of them says though, and I'm only really making a point on how the outside is organised rather than whether the Gods comprise some form of heaven (which I don't think is so). But I suspect I'd much rather spend the afterlife celebrated by Gierra than being tormented by lesser Ciphrang ;)
"The fat will be eaten, of course. But the high holy? The faithful? They shall be celebrated!"
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The Ciphrang celebrate too, I think. They just celebrate different things and in different ways than most of the Gods. The Inchoroi would understand them well, I think.
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That is an arguement between a Fanim Cish and an Inrithi priestess as seen by a Zeum sorcerer. I'm more wary of lies and deceit there than in the Glossary.
Clearly there is some truth in what each of them says though, and I'm only really making a point on how the outside is organised rather than whether the Gods comprise some form of heaven (which I don't think is so). But I suspect I'd much rather spend the afterlife celebrated by Gierra than being tormented by lesser Ciphrang ;)
"The fat will be eaten, of course. But the high holy? The faithful? They shall be celebrated!"
LOL
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Sorry if I'm spouting garbage here but its been a while since I've read the books and while I was checking for an update on the next installment said I'd check out what the ideas were for wtf is going on.
As far as I'm concerned what Kellhus is doing seems political but for uncertain ends possibly with the control of the consult in the balance. IIRC Kellhus had a negotiation with the Nonmen. Now where did these non-men come from and what are their goals? Didn;t Kellhus have a conversation with "the last Nonman king" (can't even remember his name now)? who said that the last fortress of non-men had decided to turn to the dark.
Assuming the non-men are now part of the dark side or allied to the consult this means Kallhus has promised to take a fortress back for them which has possibly been overun by the Sranc and more interestingly there may be factions within the Consult that have infighting and by returning the fortress to the non-men Kallhus gains their alliegance and gains more influence in the Consult.
Assuming this is true then it would be fair to say that Kellhus wants control of the Consult, why though? IMO to resurrect the No-God of which he would then possibly have control or even become. This could be the reason for infighting between the consult as none of them can agree who is to ascend. At the very least he may have a belief that resurrecting the No-God would stop him from being damned.
There are a few possiblities as well that cropped up in my mind first among them is that Kallhus is Shaeonanra either resurrected or suffered temporarily from amnesia. It would explain why he had a Father if he was reborn. It may be that Kallhus up to a point had no idea who he was. As of yet Shaeonanra has seemingly had no direct involvement in the events in the books. From what is mentioned of his ability and power it seems like he single handedly could destroy the entire "crusade" other than Kallhus of course.
Maybe the Dunyain are related to the Consult as the whole logic and end goal thing really seams eerily similar to both.
Also if Kallhus is Shaeonanra and has been reborn several times it may be due due to this that he has memories of a Dunyain upbringing.
Of course there is the possibility Kallhus is the No-God's avatar and again did not know it up to a certain point. This would make some sense given the deficiencies of his children. Also his apparent lack of emotion also is similar to the No-God. Heck Kallhus could have taken over the first crusade to look for the Heron Spear and remove it as an obstacle.
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Hey Monstar! Good stuff! I particularly like the idea the the Consult are infighting over who will ascend. A bit of me thinks the first No-God was Nin'janjin, and if they can't bring him back then it would have to be someone else. A fight between Mekeritrig vs Shaeonanra vs Aurang vs Aurax would be amazing. If there's a way to make the Consults fight each other, I bet Kellhus has found it.
It is telling that Bakker has hidden Shae from the reader so much for so long. When I read The Unholy Consult excerpt, I was floored that Achamian referred to Shae as "Lord of the Consult."
http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=797.0
I had thought that Shae would be nothing more than Aurang/Aurax's pawn--but that doesn't seem to be the case in Akka's mind.
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Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Monstar.
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well if Kellhus promised to take a fortress back, why not just move it with sorcery (take it) to wherever the nonmen want it. shake out the sranc once it's in the air.
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well if Kellhus promised to take a fortress back, why not just move it with sorcery (take it) to wherever the nonmen want it. shake out the sranc once it's in the air.
That's why I'm thinking there's more than Sranc there. Kellhus might need the army and sorcerers to handle the Sranc and whatever else comes at them while he takes on the bigger threat. The argument might be made if it is just Sranc why aren't the Non-Men waltzing in themselves and blitzing the place from the air.
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Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Monstar.
Thanks!
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Hey Monstar! Good stuff! I particularly like the idea the the Consult are infighting over who will ascend. A bit of me thinks the first No-God was Nin'janjin, and if they can't bring him back then it would have to be someone else. A fight between Mekeritrig vs Shaeonanra vs Aurang vs Aurax would be amazing. If there's a way to make the Consults fight each other, I bet Kellhus has found it.
It is telling that Bakker has hidden Shae from the reader so much for so long. When I read The Unholy Consult excerpt, I was floored that Achamian referred to Shae as "Lord of the Consult."
http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=797.0
I had thought that Shae would be nothing more than Aurang/Aurax's pawn--but that doesn't seem to be the case in Akka's mind.
The angle I'm going for is that the infighting is continuous and has been the reason so little progress has been made on the consults behalf in so long.
The quote there is actually what got me thinking about Kallus being someone else and not realising it
“But souls are exceedingly complicated,” he continued. “Far more so than the crude sorceries used to trap them. The intricacies of identity are always sheared away. Memory. Faculty. Character. These are cast into the pit... Only the most base urges survive in proxies.”
Maybe he went outside not just to get some demon heads for his belt but to regain his memories.
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Infighting as the cause of the 2000 year gap works well! But the False Sun gave me the impression that looking into the Inverse Fire caused a 'project unity.' Have to wait and see if that's the case.
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Infighting as the cause of the 2000 year gap works well! But the False Sun gave me the impression that looking into the Inverse Fire caused a 'project unity.' Have to wait and see if that's the case.
I know, this gap between books is killing me. Interesting with that short story the references to seeing ie. The False Sun was blind when he was younger and Shaeönanra's references to "seeing".
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If he is still following TTT, I'm thinking Kellhus' goals should be:
1. Destroy the dunyain.
2. Eliminate the consult & destroy inverse fire.
3. Exterminate the nonmen.
4. Ensure all the sorcerers in the ordeal die.
5. Fix it so the cish replace the thousand temples when the New Empire falls.
6. Die.
With the schools, consult and nonmen gone and the Cish priests running the theological side, the chance of the no-god project ever being taken up by anyone else is pretty much eliminated.
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If he is still following TTT, I'm thinking Kellhus' goals should be:
1. Destroy the dunyain.
2. Eliminate the consult & destroy inverse fire.
3. Exterminate the nonmen.
4. Ensure all the sorcerers in the ordeal die.
5. Fix it so the cish replace the thousand temples when the New Empire falls.
6. Die.
With the schools, consult and nonmen gone and the Cish priests running the theological side, the chance of the no-god project ever being taken up by anyone else is pretty much eliminated.
That's awesome! Although it makes it seem unnecessary/risky to kill so many Cish in the first trilogy--what do you think is going on with that?
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That was necessary to unite the three seas and build a war machine.
Also enables him to march all the damned magic-users into the meat grinder. (Incidentally, drafting so many males and females into the Doomed Ordeal should weaken the genetic viability of the Few).
This way the Cish become returning liberators.
By crushing the Cishurim power structure 20 years ago, TTT and Kellhus can use mythology and conditioned 'last survivor' as needs must.
Finally, if the ordeal fails and Mog walks, the potential of the Psukhe will be the last chance humanity has to turn the tide.
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Ah, I see! Sounds good--when I first finished WLW, I wondered if the third set of books would be about 20 years down the road, the No-God is walking, and the only hope of mankind is Meppa-trained Kelmomas BWA-HA-HA-HA!
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I wonder whether the sett up of TSTSNBN will be clear after TUC.
It's a big question as to Kellhus' true motivation.
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If he is still following TTT, I'm thinking Kellhus' goals should be:
1. Destroy the dunyain.
2. Eliminate the consult & destroy inverse fire.
3. Exterminate the nonmen.
4. Ensure all the sorcerers in the ordeal die.
5. Fix it so the cish replace the thousand temples when the New Empire falls.
6. Die.
With the schools, consult and nonmen gone and the Cish priests running the theological side, the chance of the no-god project ever being taken up by anyone else is pretty much eliminated.
That's awesome! Although it makes it seem unnecessary/risky to kill so many Cish in the first trilogy--what do you think is going on with that?
Id rob and adapt some of your views to mine
Kallhus puts everything humanity has in one big effort to achieve his aims of taking over the consult with the aims of reincarnating the No-God. He will ensure in the process of reincarnating the No-God that the army along with the vast majority of mages are eliminated. Mankind is bankrupted and largely leaderless and will find it difficult to field an army. The lack of mages to use magic against the consult will also minimize any possiblities of failure.
Alternatively the matches he brings with him might be necessary for a sacrifice to brink back the No-God, maybe the False Sun was used in this way but another sacrifice is needed as his power was destroyed by the spear.
Another possibility, maybe the mages are neccesary as a sacrifice to power the Heron spear. Kallus is manipulating the Consult as he does everyone and needs to get the army close enough to the No-God to destroy it completely.
IMO I get the feeling that the army is going to be necessary in the end and have an image of Achamian turning up at the right time to save it with the rebels we've been seeing together the new leaders.
One we know Kallus needs that army and the mages for something and is trying to get them to survive to a certain point.
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I agree Monstar--that Kellhus has taken almost all of the sorcerers and so much military might makes it seem like the Great Ordeal has to fail in order to raise the stakes for book 7. Either the No-God returns or something worse. Esmi's comment at the end of WLW about all humanity uniting if the No-God returns seems like a nice foreshadow...Esmi saves the world in the third trilogy! :P It's HER TURN to use the Heron Spear.
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Monstar, taking over the consult would just be another step towards an ultimate goal. Are you suggesting that this goal is the same as the consult?
Raising the No-god means becoming a slave to it, according to the glossary. Probably not something Kellhus would want, imo.
The False Sun was buried with Titirga.
Heron spear is not powered by sorcery, the Inchies were using those weapons well before they harnessed sorcery.
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Monstar, taking over the consult would just be another step towards an ultimate goal. Are you suggesting that this goal is the same as the consult?
Raising the No-god means becoming a slave to it, according to the glossary. Probably not something Kellhus would want, imo.
The False Sun was buried with Titirga.
Heron spear is not powered by sorcery, the Inchies were using those weapons well before they harnessed sorcery.
I've no idea I'm just throwing out my opinion and some possiblities.
Maybe the power struggle in the Consult is that Kellhus wants to ressurrect the No-God as he believes he can control it whereas the majority of the consult believe otherwise.
Just because the Heron spear wasn't powered by sorcery doesn't mean it can't be in future. Maybe there's a sacrifice neccesary and the mages are there to ensure that the army survives until the correct point.
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I'm wondering if this will be the climax--where Kellhus releases the No-God with a plan in place to control it only to find that there was some crucial bit of data left out of his calculations.
Would also be cool if the Consult and Kellhus/Great Ordeal annihilate each other just as the No-God is resurrected, so NG is brooding in the North with no Consult to guide it.
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Sorry if I'm spouting garbage here but its been a while since I've read the books and while I was checking for an update on the next installment said I'd check out what the ideas were for wtf is going on.
Lots of garbage floating around here, and a good portion of it is mine, so no worries there ;) Welcome to TSA.
As far as I'm concerned what Kellhus is doing seems political but for uncertain ends possibly with the control of the consult in the balance. IIRC Kellhus had a negotiation with the Nonmen. Now where did these non-men come from and what are their goals? Didn;t Kellhus have a conversation with "the last Nonman king" (can't even remember his name now)? who said that the last fortress of non-men had decided to turn to the dark.
That conversation revealed that many Nonmen fight fro the Consult, and that nothing goes on in Ishterabinth that the Consult don't know about. The envoy, whatever his name was, didn't say explicitly that all the Nonmen fight for the Consult.
Kellhus seems to believe that they flew on their fiery chariots from Ishterebinth to him, but I suppose we don't know that for sure.
Assuming the non-men are now part of the dark side or allied to the consult this means Kallhus has promised to take a fortress back for them which has possibly been overun by the Sranc and more interestingly there may be factions within the Consult that have infighting and by returning the fortress to the non-men Kallhus gains their alliegance and gains more influence in the Consult.
I don't think there will be many Nonmen within Dagliash, though it almost certainly is overrun with sranc.
We have had no indication that there is any infighting within the Consult. They all, meaning Aurang/Aurax/Shaeonora, are all striving to save their souls by sealing Earwa off from the Outside.
Nonman make mercurial allies. They seem to flip sides whenever it suits them. Mercenaries to be paid with the coin of atrocities with which they can make memories. Kellhus is likely trying to convince them that he will be the winner of this war with the Consult, and thus turn them to his side. The last thing he wants is a cabal of Quya showing up and trying to kill him.
Assuming this is true then it would be fair to say that Kellhus wants control of the Consult, why though? IMO to resurrect the No-God of which he would then possibly have control or even become. This could be the reason for infighting between the consult as none of them can agree who is to ascend. At the very least he may have a belief that resurrecting the No-God would stop him from being damned.
I can see two paths here for Kellhus, depending on what he truly is or what his motivations are.
Path number 1: Kellhus is a Dunyain.
He wants nothing but to dominate all circumstancts. Like with the Holy War from PoN, he found that unless he controls everything, he himself is being controlled. In order to be a self-moving soul, the Dunyain's only purpose, he must control everything. Women, Men, Nonmen, Consult, and even the Gods. The Consult are just part of his plan, and he will use them to transend the cycle of before and after.
Path number 2: Kellhus is not a Dunyain.
Kellhus is fighting the Consult to save the world. He has decided that in order to do this, he must stop the Consult from sealing off Earwa from the Outside, which involves the wholesale slaughter of nearly every Man, Woman, and Child. This is unacceptable to him, and he seeks to destroy the Consult.
There are a few possiblities as well that cropped up in my mind first among them is that Kallhus is Shaeonanra either resurrected or suffered temporarily from amnesia. It would explain why he had a Father if he was reborn. It may be that Kallhus up to a point had no idea who he was. As of yet Shaeonanra has seemingly had no direct involvement in the events in the books. From what is mentioned of his ability and power it seems like he single handedly could destroy the entire "crusade" other than Kallhus of course.
Interesting idea, but I don't see much support for it in the text.
Also, I don't think anyone, even Kellhus, could solo destroy the Mandate and the Swayali. The Consult will need something far more powerful than brute-force sorcery to take them out. Shae is powerful and intelligent, but I doubt he is stronger than even a handful of the Gnostic school(wo)men, let alone the fact that there are at least 2 meta-gnosic wielders not counting Kellhus.
Maybe the Dunyain are related to the Consult as the whole logic and end goal thing really seams eerily similar to both.
The Dunyain have been shrouded in mystery since the beginning. We are going to learn a lot about them in TUC.
Also if Kallhus is Shaeonanra and has been reborn several times it may be due due to this that he has memories of a Dunyain upbringing.
Not likely. Shae is absolutely terrified of the Outside. In my opinion, he wouldn't risk being reborn for fear that his soul would get stuck in the Outside.
Of course there is the possibility Kallhus is the No-God's avatar and again did not know it up to a certain point. This would make some sense given the deficiencies of his children. Also his apparent lack of emotion also is similar to the No-God. Heck Kallhus could have taken over the first crusade to look for the Heron Spear and remove it as an obstacle.
The idea is possible, and many people think that Kellhus is/will be the new No-God. I just don't see how birth defects in his children or lack of emotion are clues. His father also had defective children, so it is far more likely that this points to something strange with either the Dunyain blood, or more specifically the bloodline of the Anasurimbor's. As for emotions, again, none of the Dunyain seem to exibit many emotions, and on top of that, the No-God showed us nothing so far except questions, it may or may not have emotions (hard to say either way with its own POV).
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Wilshire/Monstar got me thinking that maybe Kellhus is a defective but so subtle that he accidentally passed through the Dunyain filters!
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I'm wondering if this will be the climax--where Kellhus releases the No-God with a plan in place to control it only to find that there was some crucial bit of data left out of his calculations.
Somehow sounds too... banal. This is one very popular trope around (Wagner's "Bloodstone" is but one example) and I suppose Bakker will surprise us.
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I can see two paths here for Kellhus, depending on what he truly is or what his motivations are.
Path number 1: Kellhus is a Dunyain.
He wants nothing but to dominate all circumstancts. Like with the Holy War from PoN, he found that unless he controls everything, he himself is being controlled. In order to be a self-moving soul, the Dunyain's only purpose, he must control everything. Women, Men, Nonmen, Consult, and even the Gods. The Consult are just part of his plan, and he will use them to transend the cycle of before and after.
Interesting point, maybe he sees the only way he can control the No-God is by bringing him to full consciousness or eliminating it. Consult obviously don't want that to happen so he has to go to war.
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If Kellhus is interested in doing anything about the goddamn sranc problem then he MUST bring back the No-God. That's the only way to get them all in one spot or whatever. Kellhus controls the No-God, the No-God orders all the sranc into the sea. If Kellhus still serves the Dunyain, this could be a real goal for him. The sranc problem isn't going to go away and will disturb any sanctuary eventually.
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Yeah thats a pretty good point. No way to erraticate them unless you are sure you kill every last one, and the only way to do that is to get them all to the same place. I feel that a small pocket of wild sranc left untouched could reinfect all Earwa in a short amount of time.
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It is an interesting thought, the Consult having internal divisions and power struggles. However if they do, I doubt it's over who gets to ascend to be the No-God. I don't think being the No-God is a pleasant experience. Consider that the one time we've seen it, rather than exulting in its power or imminent triumph, all it could do was scream "WHAT DO YOU SEE?" and beg someone to tell it what it was.
The No-God, if it feels anything at all, is probably an extremely confused, tormented creature that may or may not even be self aware in the way humans or Cunuroi or Inchoroi are.
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Feeling bad for the NG seems ridiculous, and also potentially plausible. This kind of fits the whole thing with the Inchoroi maybe not being so bad, or that no matter the atrocity, one might still feel for the one baring the whip.