“The nail of heaven”. What is it?
I remember reading a description from Achamian while he was wondering the camps looking for Esmi.
I wish i remember exactly where, so i could quote it.
Anyway.
The distinct impression i had was of a body in geocentric orbit.
A satellite. Not a far distant star.
It maintained the same position in the heavens throughout the day according to Achamians description.
So its an asteroid?, a moon?. A mother ship?.
Did it appear when the Inchies did?. I don’t think we are ever told.
I hope the ship that crashed was not some military scout ship, sent to drop the planets population before the main landing...
Quote from: BorricI hope the ship that crashed was not some military scout ship, sent to drop the planets population before the main landing...
Wow. Borric.
Just wow.
My own speculation was perhaps the ethereal remains of a wormhole the Inchoroi used to travel?
I always interpreted it as just a bright star right above the North Pole. Like our Pole Star. Which is always in the same place (approximately).
EDIT: Though, for a star, it is a remarkably bright one. It is visible during the day:Quote from: TTT, final sceneThe sun rained down. The shadows were sharp. The sky was cloudless, a turquoise bowl marked only by the Nail of Heaven, which glittered like something lost and precious glimpsed in the deeps.
I think we're speculating specifically from this one little sentence and footnote from The False Sun:(click to show/hide)
It highlights the Nail of Heaven's... youth in the skies. I too had figured it for the North Star equivalent in Earwa before reading the False Sun, though now I'm not so sure.
Strange. I had always thought it was simply a name they used for the Sun and Moon. Now that I'm re-reading the series, it appears to be a star, but they rarely mention the sun and moon by those words alone. Huh.
All I can think about looking at your words, Sideris, is... Monocle Shark "I say" ;).
That is a damn dapper shark. I haven't had the heart to have a new avatar since I yoinked that one. :P But in hindsight, I think I saw the word sun used maybe twice in Darkness That Comes Before, I'm near done re-reading it currently. Nail of Heaven appears loads of times. And the only time I recall seeing the word 'sun' appear again is in TWP when Akka throws down with the Scarlet Schoolmen. Maybe I'm missing something. I'm doing hardcore analytic reading of the trilogy. So much foreshadowing in Darkness, good god. I enjoy it a lot more now that I've read up to TJE (just bought White Luck and am re-reading to get up to White Luck with a fresh serial memory).
Maybe the Nail is a star. I never really considered that. And it would rather make sense no in regards to Aurang's visit to Sarcellus #1. 'Eyes like twin Nails of Heaven.' I'd misjudged the head size of the Synthese in my imagination to be slightly larger. Pictured it as twin suns, etc. Not twin stars. Hrm.
Quote from: MadnessI think we're speculating specifically from this one little sentence and footnote from The False Sun:Very interesting, didn't notice that before. Thank you Madness.
I've suggested it might be the inchie dropship/deathstar before on westeros with a similar line of thinking, here's a summary of the counter arguement.
If it's a pole star it would be aligned with the north or south pole, evidence for this is when it is described that the other stars rotate around it.
If it's in a geostationary orbit it would be above the equator and would only be visible depending on whether it was in the planets shadow - unless it emits its own light, of course.
This would make it appear to move past or through the other stars.
I think there is a passage in WLW where Akka remarks he has only seen the Nail so high in the sky in Seswatha's dreams, which also would support it being above the North Pole.
I wish i had my copy of the warrior prophet with me (a friend has borrowed it).
The sentence I’m thinking of is in there somewhere, but i can’t remember exactly where.
Maybe you can keep an eye out for it Sideris, what i do remember is Akka searching the holy war camp looking for Esmi.
He emerges from a tent (a prostitute he has visited i think) looks up and describes the Nail in detail.
Had to go check TWP. There are a couple of passages there that clearly indicates that the other stars seem to rotate around the Nail. So it wouldn't be in geostationary orbit.Quote from: TWP, ch. 18About the Nail of Heaven, clouds of stars wheeled above them, numbering their dead.Quote from: TWP, ch. 23And about the Nail of Heaven, the stars revolved, like clouds hurried across winter skies.
The second quote is a little dodgy, since it's from Kellhus's weird No-God dream at the circumfix.
Quote from: BorqueI think there is a passage in WLW where Akka remarks he has only seen the Nail so high in the sky in Seswatha's dreams, which also would support it being above the North Pole.
I believe this refers to a constellation called the Flail, not actually the Nail. I'll have to check later. Not sure if the Nail is in set constellation.
Found it. It's in Chapter 3. In the Mop, right before Kosoter kills Hameron.Quote from: WLW, ch. 3The Nail of Heaven glittered above, higher on the horizon than he had ever seen it before - with his waking eyes at least.
Strange. Yet something else to be explained later in TUC.
If its something other than a star it could be over the pole because ... magnets? :P
Let's combine theories. Maybe it is a star. But one obscenely far away who's light is being glimpsed through a geostationary wormhole generator used by the Inchoroi to arrive at Earwa? Could even be their home star.
I like it, Sharmat.
i always pictured the nail as a close galaxy. Close in cosmological terms, were details were visible. Also, it could be a nebula or remnants of a supernova. But i like the idea that it is direct related to either inchies travel or the Outside.
the name itself is an incredibly enticing metaphor. In a world where metaphors can be potently real, I wonder... Perhaps its one of those hidden in plain sight things that will have everyone smacking themselves in disgust when it's revealed to be the actual physical location to which Heaven is Nailed.
Gigantic Eat at Joe's sign left in orbit.
Ah yes. And Golgoterath is the Golden Arches, and Aurang is the Hamburglar.
He certainly burgles something in each novel. *shudder*
Haha. Ronald McDonald will never seem the same.
Quote from: BorricI wish i had my copy of the warrior prophet with me (a friend has borrowed it).
The sentence I’m thinking of is in there somewhere, but i can’t remember exactly where.
Maybe you can keep an eye out for it Sideris, what i do remember is Akka searching the holy war camp looking for Esmi.
He emerges from a tent (a prostitute he has visited i think) looks up and describes the Nail in detail.
Actually, I think I've come to that very section and all it mentions at all for the Nail is how '[in the crowd] the odd face frost by the Nail of Heaven's pale light'. And if this is the section (still reading the book) then it must be the Moon or something. That can't be a star. It can't.
Nope, that’s not it Sideris.
Believe me; you will know when you get to it.
Akka did go into some detail.
I’ve got a nagging feeling it might be in TTT now though :oops:
Ahhhh. Well, I'll post here again when I roll around to it. I'm re-reading all the books with a clinical eye and I barely recall some parts of Thousandfold, so it'll be a nice (re)discovery.
It sounds increasingly like the nail is the true center of the universe, rather than the very center of Earwa being the center of the universe.
Here is a neat video from wiki showing Polaris (our northern pole star) and how the other stars wheel around it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Polaris_motion.ogg
Quote from: Callan S.It sounds increasingly like the nail is the true center of the universe, rather than the very center of Earwa being the center of the universe.
I am no astronmer, but how would that work? Was it the locus where the Big Bang occurred? How would it's position remain invariant with respect to a planet? A pole star, one that defines the north pole with respect to a planet, is much more easy to accept.
(Thanlks to Curethan for posting that clip. Curiously there is no bright sparkler visible in Earth's southern hemisphere that defines geographic south.)
Quote from: anor277(Thanlks to Curethan for posting that clip. Curiously there is no bright sparkler visible in Earth's southern hemisphere that defines geographic south.)
Yeh, as an Australian I found it very interesting. We have the Southern Cross, but that just points to where a pole star would be if there was one.
Also interesting to note that as we travel through space the pole star will change.
Another sighting when Akka is throwing down with the Scarlet Schoolmen in the Sareotic. Specifically says the Nail is silvering a cloud while the sun sets. Bit more than a star, folks.
Binary star, perhaps? Though not sure what the orbital relationship would be like given its static position in the sky.
Quote from: SiderisAnother sighting when Akka is throwing down with the Scarlet Schoolmen in the Sareotic. Specifically says the Nail is silvering a cloud while the sun sets. Bit more than a star, folks.
A bit more than a star? Well how close to Earwa is the putative pole star? I certainly don't know. And while I said that I was not an astronomer, there is something called Olbers' paradox, which holds that the night sky should be brighter than the day sky (that's it's not may be evidence for a finitely old universe). I have no problem with a bright, proximate sun that is visible in daylight.
I thought that alleged paradox was broached when the universe was believed to be infinite? In a universe that is neither spatially nor temporally infinite it's no paradox at all. Well, unless you live in the galactic core or something where there are stars absolutely everywhere right next to each other.
Honestly, I'm quite sure it'll be addressed at some point. It's too much a curiosity now. Well, I can hope. There IS that expanded encyclopedia we keep hearing of...
I'd buy an Encyclopaedia Earwa even if it were a fourth novel to the Aspect-Emperor trilogy
Quote from: anor277Quote from: Callan S.It sounds increasingly like the nail is the true center of the universe, rather than the very center of Earwa being the center of the universe.How would it's position remain invariant with respect to a planet? A pole star, one that defines the north pole with respect to a planet, is much more easy to accept.
You have to remember in biblical times, it was taken the sun revolved around the earth (and from 'obvious observation' it certainly seems the sun revolves around us). This is a book about a world where the bible is just plain true.
So you have the nail of heaven, then Earwa orbiting that, then the sun of Earwa orbiting Earwa.
But the Nonmen believe, as the Inchoroi have said, that each star is another Sun, each with its own world. Though humanity found the idea offensive. I'm inclined to trust objectivity in this case.
Yes, and doesn't it just burn to be but a mere forgetable detail in the sky of the true world, as it revolves around the center of the universe? Doesn't it burn to be mere window dressing? Whole worlds, just to make a single winking lights for them? Yes, the other worlds revolve around their window dressing suns. Because it doesn't matter if they do.
Ya gotta jive on the epic self loathing of that. Then think, does that epic fit the setting?
i mention it in more detail in my I.5 almanac posting--but TTT glossary on the NoH indictaes thatQuoteThe northern star that, aside from being the brightest star in the night sky (it is sometimes visible in daylight), provides the axis from which all other stars revolve.(III at 469).
the inference is that the axis around which the celestial sphere spins (i.e., matching the perceived or actual revolution of the heavens around the earth) must pass from the north pole of that sphere (i.e., sphere as perceived from the center, i.e., on the planet, looking heavenward) through the center of the sphere to the south pole. the pole points have no apparent radial velocity, aye, and the greatest radial velocity is on the equator? the center of the sphere must be on the axis.
the planet is therefore the center of the universe. the inchoroi have accordingly chosen well.
I'm not getting that - the terms might just be going over my head? Why does that make the planet (or the center of the planet) the center of the universe, rather than the north star?
it makes sense that the planet is the center of the universe if that's what the ancient world believed. This is about making a fantasy world that recreates the reality of ancient beliefs.
Yeah, it just A: grates against a certain aesthetic because you can't actually visit the center of the universe, as its under alot of rock and B: in flat earth days, the center of the universe would be visitable.
Yeah, I grant the north star being the center of the universe would jar the traditional idea. But for myself, if it's the center, and it's all glowy and mysterious, it's super more interesting to visit than some rocks. Unless SA becomes journey to the center of the earth at some point - which is kinda cool.
flat earth...that's damned interesting. we know that there're horizons in the setting, which implies a non-flat earth. can we make RSB's world flat? tolkien made his world flat, at least in the early drafts, even though aragorn later could go to places "where the stars are strange." what's north of agongorea, south of kutnarmu? dunsany's edge of the world?
I wasn't really thinking a flat earth would apply (you think the Inchies would certainly spot THAT particular 'planet' - or maybe that's why they crashed - the gravity is wacked?). BUT wouldn't it tie into the idea of 'Limits with One Side' in quite a funny way?
I do at times think that RSB has read all of Pratchett, probably repeatedly.
"TELL ME, WHAT DO YOU SEE?"
"A giant turtle..."
Quote from: lockesnowit makes sense that the planet is the center of the universe if that's what the ancient world believed. This is about making a fantasy world that recreates the reality of ancient beliefs.
But the idea of stars and planets presented by the Inchoroi very much clashes with most ancient beliefs of the real world. We aren't talking holes in the celestial spheres, according to them.
I don't think its position indicates that Earwa is the center of the universe at all. Just that that star is positioned directly at this world's north pole. It could (and assuming it is in fact a star) and probably does have some radial velocity in respect to Earwa, but it can take a long time for a star to appreciably move in a sky. Although it is definitely an uncommonly bright or very close star.
The fact that the original Nonman name refers to it as "Newborn" seems like it's almost certainly relevant, which is what gives me pause in just assuming it's a normal star.
Quote from: The SharmatThe fact that the original Nonman name refers to it as "Newborn" seems like it's almost certainly relevant, which is what gives me pause in just assuming it's a normal star.But remember, the Nonmen are so old. Maybe it started recently in their memory.
Quote from: starfoxBut remember, the Nonmen are so old. Maybe it started recently in their memory.
Just as we see stars wink out of existence, an event that actually took place long before we ever see it. That whole limitation of the speed of light and the distance separating us from other stars thing. So too could a new star wink into existence, even though it has actually existed for years before it's light reached us. Through the birth and death of centuries and millennia its plausible that new stars could show up.
Interesting speculation.
We might get a bit more clarity if we draw parallels from our own world cosmology.
This is how the "Nail of Heaven" is described on this site: http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/Nail_of_Heaven
The "brightest star in the sky?" Well, in our own universe, the brightest star in the sky would likely be Sirius A, with it's sister B and perhaps C.
The Masonic magicians, wielders of the Gnosis in our own world, in their respectful schools, view Sirius as the "Sun behind the sun."
Moreover, the Freemasons have a lore that stretches back to ancient Egypt and beyond.
Here is a link that might put this into perspective:
http://secretarcana.com/hiddenknowledge/the-mysterious-connection-between-sirius-and-human-history/
Traveling at the speed of light? Years? Millenia?
I think one of my favorite hypotheses here are the space-station or mothership.
I like the sigil of destruction idea though, Somnambulist. Shades of Warhammer 40K again.
Lol, shades of District 9, Wilshire. Anyone see Elysium yet?
Missed out on District 9, but I did just go see Elysium. As it was the first movie I actually went to go see in quite some time, I was a bit disappointing. Nothing in particular was wrong with it, but (to me) there wasnt much exceptional about it either. Worth renting for sure, probably not worth my $21 for the 2 tickets.
But i think i will be very much in the minority on this...obviously mixing sci fi into fantasy is very much en vogue :-\ :-X
Well, you know, Madness, maybe you just have to sell me on the concept and why it is so cool ;)
Oh and has he? I mean the ark is obviously a ship from space. This can still be very much fantasy-like and not all that sci fi like (meaning: the ship is very much magi-tech and not hard sci fi aka real tech stuff).
Oh and Wilshire, i have one big franchise where the wormholes are not triangular....Stargate ;D So you can relax ;)
Lol, shades of District 9, Wilshire. Anyone see Elysium yet?
Missed out on District 9, but I did just go see Elysium. As it was the first movie I actually went to go see in quite some time, I was a bit disappointing. Nothing in particular was wrong with it, but (to me) there wasnt much exceptional about it either. Worth renting for sure, probably not worth my $21 for the 2 tickets.