[mrganondorf]

That is an arguement between a Fanim Cish and an Inrithi priestess as seen by a Zeum sorcerer.  I'm more wary of lies and deceit there than in the Glossary.
Clearly there is some truth in what each of them says though, and I'm only really making a point on how the outside is organised rather than whether the Gods comprise some form of heaven (which I don't think is so).  But I suspect I'd much rather spend the afterlife celebrated by Gierra than being tormented by lesser Ciphrang

"The fat will be eaten, of course. But the high holy? The faithful? They shall be celebrated!"

LOL

[Monstar]

Sorry if I'm spouting garbage here but its been a while since I've read the books and while I was checking for an update on the next installment said I'd check out what the ideas were for wtf is going on.

As far as I'm concerned what Kellhus is doing seems political but for uncertain ends possibly with the control of the consult in the balance. IIRC Kellhus had a negotiation with the Nonmen. Now where did these non-men come from and what are their goals? Didn;t Kellhus have a conversation with "the last Nonman king" (can't even remember his name now)? who said that the last fortress of non-men had decided to turn to the dark.

Assuming the non-men are now part of the dark side or allied to the consult this means Kallhus has promised to take a fortress back for them which has possibly been overun by the Sranc and more interestingly there may be factions within the Consult that have infighting and by returning the fortress to the non-men Kallhus gains their alliegance and gains more influence in the Consult.

Assuming this is true then it would be fair to say that Kellhus wants control of the Consult, why though? IMO to resurrect the No-God of which he would then possibly have control or even become. This could be the reason for infighting between the consult as none of them can agree who is to ascend. At the very least he may have a belief that resurrecting the No-God would stop him from being damned.

There are a few possiblities as well that cropped up in my mind first among them is that Kallhus is Shaeonanra either resurrected or suffered temporarily from amnesia. It would explain why he had a Father if he was reborn. It may be that Kallhus up to a point had no idea who he was. As of yet Shaeonanra has seemingly had no direct involvement in the events in the books. From what is mentioned of his ability and power it seems like he single handedly could destroy the entire "crusade" other than Kallhus of course.

Maybe the Dunyain are related to the Consult as the whole logic and end goal thing really seams eerily similar to both.

Also if Kallhus is Shaeonanra and has been reborn several times it may be due due to this that he has memories of a Dunyain upbringing.

Of course there is the possibility Kallhus is the No-God's avatar and again did not know it up to a certain point. This would make some sense given the deficiencies of his children. Also his apparent lack of emotion also is similar to the No-God. Heck Kallhus could have taken over the first crusade to look for the Heron Spear and remove it as an obstacle.

[mrganondorf]

Hey Monstar!  Good stuff!  I particularly like the idea the the Consult are infighting over who will ascend.  A bit of me thinks the first No-God was Nin'janjin, and if they can't bring him back then it would have to be someone else.  A fight between Mekeritrig vs Shaeonanra vs Aurang vs Aurax would be amazing.  If there's a way to make the Consults fight each other, I bet Kellhus has found it. 

It is telling that Bakker has hidden Shae from the reader so much for so long.  When I read The Unholy Consult excerpt, I was floored that Achamian referred to Shae as "Lord of the Consult." 

http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=797.0

I had thought that Shae would be nothing more than Aurang/Aurax's pawn--but that doesn't seem to be the case in Akka's mind.

[Madness]

Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Monstar.

[locke]

well if Kellhus promised to take a fortress back, why not just move it with sorcery (take it) to wherever the nonmen want it. shake out the sranc once it's in the air.

[Monstar]

well if Kellhus promised to take a fortress back, why not just move it with sorcery (take it) to wherever the nonmen want it. shake out the sranc once it's in the air.

That's why I'm thinking there's more than Sranc there. Kellhus might need the army and sorcerers to handle the Sranc and whatever else comes at them while he takes on the bigger threat. The argument might be made if it is just Sranc why aren't the Non-Men waltzing in themselves and blitzing the place from the air.

[Monstar]

Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Monstar.

Thanks!

[Monstar]

Hey Monstar!  Good stuff!  I particularly like the idea the the Consult are infighting over who will ascend.  A bit of me thinks the first No-God was Nin'janjin, and if they can't bring him back then it would have to be someone else.  A fight between Mekeritrig vs Shaeonanra vs Aurang vs Aurax would be amazing.  If there's a way to make the Consults fight each other, I bet Kellhus has found it. 

It is telling that Bakker has hidden Shae from the reader so much for so long.  When I read The Unholy Consult excerpt, I was floored that Achamian referred to Shae as "Lord of the Consult." 

http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=797.0

I had thought that Shae would be nothing more than Aurang/Aurax's pawn--but that doesn't seem to be the case in Akka's mind.

The angle I'm going for is that the infighting is continuous and has been the reason so little progress has been made on the consults behalf in so long.

The quote there is actually what got me thinking about Kallus being someone else and not realising it

“But souls are exceedingly complicated,” he continued. “Far more so than the crude sorceries used to trap them. The intricacies of identity are always sheared away. Memory. Faculty. Character. These are cast into the pit... Only the most base urges survive in proxies.”

Maybe he went outside not just to get some demon heads for his belt but to regain his memories.

[mrganondorf]

Infighting as the cause of the 2000 year gap works well!  But the False Sun gave me the impression that looking into the Inverse Fire caused a 'project unity.'  Have to wait and see if that's the case.

[Monstar]

Infighting as the cause of the 2000 year gap works well!  But the False Sun gave me the impression that looking into the Inverse Fire caused a 'project unity.'  Have to wait and see if that's the case.

I know, this gap between books is killing me. Interesting with that short story the references to seeing ie. The False Sun was blind when he was younger and Shaeönanra's references to "seeing".

[Cüréthañ]

If he is still following TTT, I'm thinking Kellhus' goals should be:
1. Destroy the dunyain.
2. Eliminate the consult & destroy inverse fire.
3. Exterminate the nonmen.
4. Ensure all the sorcerers in the ordeal die.
5. Fix it so the cish replace the thousand temples when the New Empire falls.
6. Die.

With the schools, consult and nonmen gone and the Cish priests running the theological side, the chance of the no-god project ever being taken up by anyone else is pretty much eliminated.

[mrganondorf]

If he is still following TTT, I'm thinking Kellhus' goals should be:
1. Destroy the dunyain.
2. Eliminate the consult & destroy inverse fire.
3. Exterminate the nonmen.
4. Ensure all the sorcerers in the ordeal die.
5. Fix it so the cish replace the thousand temples when the New Empire falls.
6. Die.

With the schools, consult and nonmen gone and the Cish priests running the theological side, the chance of the no-god project ever being taken up by anyone else is pretty much eliminated.

That's awesome!  Although it makes it seem unnecessary/risky to kill so many Cish in the first trilogy--what do you think is going on with that?

[Cüréthañ]

That was necessary to unite the three seas and build a war machine. 
Also enables him to march all the damned magic-users into the meat grinder. (Incidentally, drafting so many males and females into the Doomed Ordeal should weaken the genetic viability of the Few).

This way the Cish become returning liberators.
By crushing the Cishurim power structure 20 years ago, TTT and Kellhus can use mythology and conditioned 'last survivor' as needs must.

Finally, if the ordeal fails and Mog walks, the potential of the Psukhe will be the last chance humanity has to turn the tide.

[mrganondorf]

Ah, I see!  Sounds good--when I first finished WLW, I wondered if the third set of books would be about 20 years down the road, the No-God is walking, and the only hope of mankind is Meppa-trained Kelmomas BWA-HA-HA-HA!

[Cüréthañ]

I wonder whether the sett up of TSTSNBN will be clear after TUC.

It's a big question as to Kellhus' true motivation.