The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 03:45:19 pm
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I don't know, if this very question has already been answered somewhere here, but I'm re-reading the Prince of Nothing at the moment and the question is haunting me for quite some days. In The first books we learn, what the skin spies are capable of. Only the Dunyain can really recognize them and their masks are nearly perfect.
But why did the consult place the spies only in those "middle" positions? Why a Shrial-Knight and not their leader? Why the mother of the emperor and not the emperor himself? Why didn't they replace some mighty lords with actual power over many troops, a prince, or a king?
Did they fear, the Mandati might find out about this too soon? I thought the spies had a lot of time to infiltrate the Three Seas, without someone had a clue, what was happening.
I have read all 5 books, TWLW a year ago, maybe I ignored something in the books?
PS: Sorry for my bad english, I'm from germany and reading Bakker's books in english has already given me some light headaches ;)
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Divine Right of Kings?
Meaning, if they replace the leaders, who are leaders because the gods have blessed them and declare them to be leaders, then the gods might notice.
or
Power usually resides behind the throne, not in the ass seated in it. Better to be Littlefinger & Varys than Robert or Joffrey.
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monarchs need to produce heirs. can the knuckleheads breed with regal mates?
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Meaning, if they replace the leaders, who are leaders because the gods have blessed them and declare them to be leaders, then the gods might notice.
Isn't there the idea that the gods tend to notice those who are in dire straights or positions of great power, more so?
So indeed, the gods might notice the switch around if that's the sort of person the gods watch the most.
PS: Sorry for my bad english, I'm from germany and reading Bakker's books in english has already given me some light headaches ;)
You write more clearly than quite a few native english speakers! And don't worry, the books give native english speakers headaches as well! :)
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They probably werent too worried about anyone finding out about it, considering they infiltrated the mandate themselves, and someone important for that matter.
Also, I don't think the consult needed to do much accept keep themselves a secret and make the Mandate look like a bunch of raving lunatics wherever possible. Much safer to simply replace people near power than to replace the power itself. Best to not take unneeded risks.
Also like locke said, most of the 'leaders' are just figureheads anyway. No need to replace the puppet when you can be the strings or better yet the one controlling the strings.
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The question is: what were they trying to accomplish before Moenghus, Maithanet and Kellhus showed up? (This is related to the unanswered question of why Moenghus left Ishual in the first place)
Presumably, all they wanted to do was stay unseen by the Mandate and slowly pull the Three Seas into a dark age. Eventually, they might have tried to start a war between the schools of Magic. At any rate, yes, they needed to stay simultaneously hidden both from the Mandati and the Gods (not to mention regular folk). It seems that the only factor their plans did not account for were Dunyain.
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It would be amusing if part of the reason Maithanet's ascension was so easy was that the skin-spies had already been trying to stir up a Holy War, only with the Schools as a target.
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It would be amusing if part of the reason Maithanet's ascension was so easy was that the skin-spies had already been trying to stir up a Holy War, only with the Schools as a target.
that would be a hilarious irony
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Likely, they were involved in fanning the flames of the Scholastic Wars I & II, neh?
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Ever consider that "souled" skin spy on Atyersus as a plant?
What if Moenghus, after years of study and attempt and some sorcerous soul binding was able to come before the skin spy and rewrite their programming, what if he was able to dominate the skin spy? What if by binding a soul to the skin spy was key to this domination?
he then placed the skin spy on Atyersus. Why? Because it let him spy on the mandate, but more importantly it was the perfect lever to sieze immediate control of the mandate when he wanted. Moenghus could not have foreseen Achamian's role in the holy war and he would need a lever to move the Mandate into Kellhus' column.
It is Maithanet that arrives at Atyersus and unmasks the skin spy, Maithanet says that they discovered the identity of that skin spy through interrogations of the others.
Yet the result of Maithanet unveiling the skin spy is a total domination of the Mandate. They immediately ally with the Inrithi and begin a short hop to Shimeh, in force.
If Moenghus never envisioned Kellhus acquiring the gnosis, the holy war would have been sputtering out at the gates of Shimeh--likely a bloody draw--around the time of the Mandate's arrival. The mandate would be the decisive factor in assuring Inrithi and Kellhus victory.
And all of that is ennabled by placing a dominated skin spy on the board where his unveiling will have maximal effect.
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I've always wondered what sorcery Moenghus thought Kellhus would grasp. Obviously, using the Scarlet Spires was a correspondence in cause since it was easy for Maithanet to convince them, knowing the history between the Scarlet Spires and the Cishaurim. So it would seem that Moenghus thought Kellhus would learn the Anagogis and the Mandate would arrive at the precise moment with Maithanet to save the day.
However, the one thing that I can't condone is Moenghus being responsible for Simas. Simas was Achamian's tutor when Achamian came to Atyersus. That would get into some serious discrepencies quickly, I think.
I do agree that Maithanet withheld that information until the precise moment, though.
Achamian being around Kellhus really gave the Dunyain a leg up on a couple aspects of Moenghus' probability trance.
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I could be wrong but I always get the feeling that Moe saw Kell getting the gnosis, though I have no quotes to back this up. Probably because it was in the conversation where those two are talking about the consult and the mandate and sorcery so I probably just assume that he saw kell with the gnosis. In any case I don't think he saw the metagnosis coming.
teleportation is pretty freaking sweet.
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interesting extrapolation on the thought of the skin spy. What if Moe captured the original Simas and then bound his soul to that of the skin spy?
I think the Simas exchange might have been a recent development, whether he is a tool of Moe or of the Consult, I doubt Simas was on Atyersus for much more than a year before the start of TDTCB.
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Three hundredish years of experimentation on the skin-spies before Moenghus arrives in the Three-Seas. One anomaly could have happened at any time. Maybe Simas had been other Schoolmen, in other Schools, before. Maybe the Consult got overzealous and put it straight into the Mandate. The thing that was Simas was acting congruently as far back as Inrau's defection, when he councils Nautzera to allow it to pass, knowing they can use it against Achamian later, or so I'd argue. Maybe the original Simas was a manipulative dick too.
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I think Ieva proves that the consult doesn't use skin spies exclusively. They could use "regular" spies as well.
Sorcerers ... well, the Mangeacca turned. I wouldn't trust 'em.
And I'm of the opinion that the Inverse Fire is a brain washing mechanism anyway.
But Simas (and the Mandate in general) could be a special case because of Seswatha's binding of the Gnosis.
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interesting extrapolation on the thought of the skin spy. What if Moe captured the original Simas and then bound his soul to that of the skin spy?
Well a skin spy is an animate inanimate object. Same concept as the soul in the wathi doll I guess since both are empty vessels. Combined with some Dunyain trickery or other techniques to make a powerful slave.
An interesting idea.
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Most of the active skin-spies in the Three Seas at the time of the Holy War must have been first generation. Likely, aside from trying to duplicate Simas, the Consult didn't work to improve on their original models. This means that many of them would be three hundred years old because, Curethan's right, the Consult was spying and fencing more openly with Mangaecca and dissidents.
So if Simas was first gen, if I were the Consult, I would have had that fucker learn all sorcery. Though, obviously, a skin-spy on the Mandate Quorum is a very attractive informant.
What happens when a skin-spy grasps Seswatha's heart? Does it dream the Dreams?
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I presume TTCSimas never grasped the heart because if the Consult had the chance to destroy the heart they would, because that would destroy the Mandate.
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Lockesnow is right I think. He was replaced after the ceremony, and as we've seen there isn't an actual need to grasp the heart to learn the sorceries. Its likely that since his replacement, 'Simas' could have gotten away with doing little to no magic at all. His days in the field were long sense gone.
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But he'd have to be marked and appropriately bruised, neh? The exercise of his "lifetime" of sorcery, Gnostic sorcery, should be evident to his Mandate brethren?
Though, perfectly correct, in that Simas should have to have been replaced after the grasping ceremony.
In editing here, I had another thought that, maybe Simas was trained in Mengaeccan Gnosis.
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ohhh yeah forgot the mengaeca were gnostic. all schools were back then. makes sense.
also forgot about the mark issue, as it should be deep, but he could also have learned more mundane sorceries before the replacement so as to deepen his own mark, mengaecca or otherwise.
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But he'd have to be marked and appropriately bruised, neh?
You have been reading Prince of Thorns, neh?
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Lol, Ender's Game :P.
I've always thought about reading Prince of Thorns but first person is a real hard sell with me.
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Ah, Ender's game.
Well, PoT is just full of little genre references.
Even Bakker gets a nod.
Sorry for the derail. ;)
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Pish, Curethan. You derail to your heart's content :). I don't think anyone is complaining. We can always parse the comments and make a new thread if we get too far from topical.
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If the replacement Simas didn't grasp the heart and dream the dreams it would have been problematic when anyone used Cants to contact him wouldn't it?
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Also, do we know if Kellhus Grasped once the Mandate joined him?
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I believe Kelhus did not grasp the heart. The witches do which must make for some weird body issues in the dreams.
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If the replacement Simas didn't grasp the heart and dream the dreams it would have been problematic when anyone used Cants to contact him wouldn't it?
Indeed, which is another possible hint that at Simas agent has been in position for a long time.
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If the replacement Simas didn't grasp the heart and dream the dreams it would have been problematic when anyone used Cants to contact him wouldn't it?
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IF it was a soul transfer as proposed, the soul that was transfered would've grasped the heart already.
ETA: Oooooh, and we know already that the soul resides in the heart on Earwa, that's interesting.