The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: profgrape on November 17, 2014, 06:28:29 pm

Title: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: profgrape on November 17, 2014, 06:28:29 pm
I know this has been discussed (and possibly debunked) before -- apologies in advance forBut I wanted to revisit the idea that Khellus is behind Akka's NC dreams. 

In the TUC Ishual excerpt, Mimara specifically comments on the timing of the dreams.  And I wholeheartedly agree with lockesnow's comment here (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=797.0) that RSB isn't going to throw out a statement like this unless it's important.

The "timing" suggestion led many of us (I can't be the only right, at least) to go over each of both series' dreams with a fine-toothed comb.  And those that did probably came away with the same conclusion as me: PON's Seswatha dreams had little if any correlation to the events of the series, AA's Nau-Cayuti's dreams do. 

Specifically, the Nau-Cayuti dreams tend to act as "that which comes before" for Akka, pushing him to act.  Combine that with the traveller's visit to the Skin Eaters in TJE prologue and Mimara running away to find Akka, the whole thing starts to feel incredibly... Conditioned. 

In true No-God fashion, I have only questions at this point.  Assuming that Khellus is behind the well-timed NC dreams:

1) What is he after?

2) How did Khellus discovered what really happened to NC?  Or is all just an elaborate lie to push Akka toward the answer to 1)?
Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: Wilshire on November 18, 2014, 03:34:13 pm
If yes,

Then Kellhus is trying to help Akka along the way. He is goading him to continue to Ishual. The way is far and arduous, and since it seems like Kellhus wants Akka to find Ishual, then its likely another crutch for the old man.


I do disagree, though, that the PoN dreams are less connected to the timing of events. The only example I can come up with right now is in TDTCB just before Kellhus arrives on scene, Akka dreams the night before of the Celmoman Prophesy. The very next day, the Harbinger comes. The POVs are split and separated more, and I think the timing of the dreams and what they portend might be more obfuscated in PoN, but the meanings are still there.
Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: profgrape on November 18, 2014, 05:35:21 pm
Quote
Then Kellhus is trying to help Akka along the way. He is goading him to continue to Ishual. The way is far and arduous, and since it seems like Kellhus wants Akka to find Ishual, then its likely another crutch for the old man.

Agreed, all signs point toward Ishual being the destination.  If the TUC excerpt dream is any indication, the HS seems like the most likely purpose for the whole thing.  Although I also wonder if Akka is only an escort for Mimara. 

Either way, pushing Akka into doing it makes some sort of sense as it's extremely unlikely that the Consult would suspect that his actions would lead back to Khellus. 

Quote
I do disagree, though, that the PoN dreams are less connected to the timing of events. The only example I can come up with right now is in TDTCB just before Kellhus arrives on scene, Akka dreams the night before of the Celmoman Prophesy. The very next day, the Harbinger comes. The POVs are split and separated more, and I think the timing of the dreams and what they portend might be more obfuscated in PoN, but the meanings are still there.

Good point.  I always thought the timing of Akka'a Celmoman Prophecy dream and Khellus' arrival was dramatic license.  But it's also a strong counterexample to my conclusion on the timing of PON's dreams.

Do we know whether Mandati share a common "dream schedule"?  Meaning, when Akka has the Cel dream, do all Mandati have it as well?

Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: Wilshire on November 18, 2014, 05:45:21 pm
That is the other option. I still think the end of TTT "the next time you are before me you will kneel" has significance, but Mimara also appears to be very important. Him getting her to Ishual is very likely.



I don't think they do, but I have no proof. We know, at least, that the intensity of the dreams seems to be shared, based on Nautzera's commentary to Akka. This might point to them having the same dreams, but not necessarily. For some reason I think they all dream different dreams.
Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: profgrape on November 18, 2014, 07:58:35 pm
Quote
I don't think they do, but I have no proof. We know, at least, that the intensity of the dreams seems to be shared, based on Nautzera's commentary to Akka. This might point to them having the same dreams, but not necessarily. For some reason I think they all dream different dreams.

I'm inclined to agree that the dreams are different per-person.  Although I don't have proof either. 

There's an interesting implication if we assume that 1) the dreams are individualized and 2) the timing matters -- it suggests that the timing of dream selection is based on what the dreamer is going to experience!  Another case of what comes after influencing what comes before.
Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: Wilshire on November 18, 2014, 09:09:39 pm
The only instance two instances of a dreamer other than Akka is Nautzera. What is his dream? Isn't he seeing the Prophecy just before Akka awakens him? Can't remember. Maybe he was nailed to that wall or corpses. see below

Wonder if anything meaning can be squeezed from that one example?
Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: Somnambulist on November 19, 2014, 12:45:00 am
First time, Nautzera was in the dying Celmomas dream.  Second time, he was nailed to the wall in Dagliash.
Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: profgrape on November 19, 2014, 01:32:06 am
Thanks Som! 

After the first dream, Akka tells Nautzera of the skin spies and that "the Consult still plies the Three Seas."  What's interesting is that Akka considers telling Naut that an Anasurimbor has returned but inexplicably decides against it.  It almost seems like Akka was supposed to tell him but didn't.

After the second dream, Akka finally tells Naut that "an Anasurimbor has returned."  It's toward the beginning of TTT so maybe it's connected to Khellus being crucified on the circumfix?
Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: Bolivar on November 20, 2014, 03:41:53 am
I think Mekeritrig asking Nautzera for the location of the Heron Spear precedes Kellhus formally asking Akka for the Gnosis.

I do think they have different dreams, Akka at least, since he started having the mundane dreams no one else had before. I wonder if that was Kellhus' early experiments with dream conditioning,  starting out small before going for the big ones. You have to keep in mind that from the very beginning, Kellhus knew he could manipulate Akka based on his dreams (he tells them a dream lead him to the Holy War).

if it really Kellhus,  you have to wonder if he's grasped Seswatha's heart, or if he's learned about all these dreams from Mandati/Swayali. Or is he fabricating the ones that other Mandate school men haven't seen before?
Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: Wilshire on November 20, 2014, 04:13:51 am
It says in the text, either TJE or WLW, that Kellhus is the only schoolman with the gnosis that did not grasp the heart.
Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: profgrape on November 20, 2014, 04:49:03 pm
Quote
It says in the text, either TJE or WLW, that Kellhus is the only schoolman with the gnosis that did not grasp the heart.

Right.  And I don't think the dreams are fabricated.  So if they're coming from Khellus, it suggests that he's developed his own Grasping-like link to Seswatha.  Knowing Khellus, I could easily imagine him using that link in ways never imagined -- like exploring visions from Seswatha's progeny.

Another way, way wackier idea is that Khellus is using his connection to the NG to learn about Nau-Cayuti's last days.  As many have suggested, it certainly seems like the NC dreams are a device for letting us know how the NG was summoned. 


Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: Somnambulist on November 20, 2014, 06:39:47 pm
Maybe Kellhus' 'unlocking' of Seswatha from Achamian so he could teach the gnosis also opened up other dream sequences that slowly filtered out into Achamian.  It allowed Akka's subconscious to sift through Seswatha's more mundane life to find clues to Kel's origins, his deepest desire.
Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: Wilshire on November 20, 2014, 07:25:45 pm
I like that idea Som. Especially since that would make it a mistake, and I do love Kellhus' mistakes.
Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: profgrape on November 20, 2014, 08:16:09 pm
Super cool, Som!
Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: Somnambulist on November 20, 2014, 08:31:48 pm
I like that idea Som. Especially since that would make it a mistake, and I do love Kellhus' mistakes.

Mistakes!  He makes mistakes!  I'm forgetting something...
Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: profgrape on November 21, 2014, 10:53:50 pm
I re-read part of TJE last night and found a passage that takes on a different tone if Akka's dreams are an unintentional consequence of Kellhus unlocking Seswatha.  Delicious irony in bold:

Quote
"Do you know," he asks, exhaling a cloud of sweet-smelling smoke. "why Seswatha left us his dreams?"

She knows the answer.  Her mother always resorted to talk of Achamian to salve the abrasians between her and her embittered daughter.  Because he was her real father, Mimara had always thought. "To assure the School of mandate never forgets, never loses sight of its mission."

"That's what they say," Achamian replies, savouring his smoke.  "That the Dreams are a goad to action, a call to arms.  That by suffering the First Apocalypse over and over, we had no choice but to war against the possibility of the Second."

"You think otherwise?"

A shadow falls across his face. "I think the your adoptive father, our glorious, all-conquering Aspect-Emperor, is right."  The hatred is plain in his voice.

"Kellhus?" she asks.

An old man shrug -- an ancient gesture hung on failing bones. "He says it himself, Every life is a cipher..."  Another deep inhalation.  A riddle."

"And you think Seswatha's life is such."

"I know it is."
Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: Triskele on November 22, 2014, 03:47:01 am
Wow.  I've reread these books a few times, and I somehow do not remember that passage.  Was Akka already seeing some of the routine Seswatha dreams altered by that point? 

I think it's clear that something about the dreams and Seswatha is going to be hugely important at some point going forward, but I don't really know what.  I love the idea that Seswatha totally fucked with history somehow, but I don't know if that's it or not. 
Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: profgrape on November 22, 2014, 02:09:12 pm
I had the same reaction, Trisk, "How the fuck did I miss this the last N times I read this book?!?"  Beyond any sub textual meaning, it's a very nice piece of prose. Context is every, I guess. :-)

At this point in the story, Akka's Dreams had shifted from routine Seswatha to the more substantive stuff. He has, for example, already learned about Ishual although we as readers don't get this information until later in the book.

If Seswatha is the one pulling the strings, it seems like he might be trying to use Akka against Khellus.
Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: locke on November 24, 2014, 12:14:31 am
There's only one dream in tdtcb and it's repeated twice with minor variations.  The dream is continued in twp, which shows us that the mandate dream the dreams differently because akka doesn't dream skafra.

Also we know that cello man prophecy dream is a seswatha lie because celmomas was smuggled alive from the eleonot fields of the dream, he died by hanging himself at ishual as described in the prologue of tdtcb which was recently discussed in the almanac.

Here's the link to the prophecy dreams.

http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=46.0

All typ0s courtesy of Samsung.

Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: rnblut on November 24, 2014, 12:58:47 am
For what it is worth, I don't think Cel escaped the Fields of Eleneot.  The prologue labels the high king as Ganrelka; there is a reference to him being rescued "after the catastrophe on the Fields of Eleneot."  Also, Ganrelka died from the plague, his uncle hung himself (prologue page 2).
Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: locke on November 24, 2014, 03:27:40 am
Ganrelkas uncle is celmomas perhaps

All typ0s courtesy of Samsung.

Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: Wilshire on November 24, 2014, 03:42:04 am
I beliefe this is your reference locke:

Quote
Ganrelka’s uncle, who’d led the heartbreaking assault on Golgotterath’s gates in the early days of the Apocalypse, hung from a rope in his chambers, slowly twisting in a draft.

Ganrelka was rescued from the Fields of Elenëot by five Knights of Trysë. We as readers know this because we were told and saw him in this prologue, but the people of Eärwa were most likely told that he died on the battlefield. What better way to smuggle him into Ishuäl unbeknownst to anyone than to declare him dead?

(click to show/hide)
So, not Celmomas, Genrelka. Seems to be a mistake of speculation and 'facts'.
Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: Aural on November 24, 2014, 10:04:51 am
Who? Me? I think I might have gotten a couple of things mixed up in there, but I definitely still believe that it was Celmomas who was hanging from a rope in the prologue.

Here are the facts as far as I remember them:

1. At the Fields of Eleneöt, Celmomas ‘died’ (his eyes went blank) after making the prophecy. Ganrelka was present and was rescued by five knights of Trysë who later end up in Ishuäl. This was 2146. However, Ganrelka was not immediately taken to Ishuäl, he became the last reigning High-King of Kûniüri.

2. In 2147, Trysë was sacked by the No-God’s horde. Presumably, everyone who didn’t read the prologue thinks that Ganrelka was killed there with the rest of his family, since Trysë was the seat of the Kûniüric High-Kings. I believe Achamian even remarks somewhere that the Anasûrimbor house perished with the sack of Trysë. The fact that he was secretly smuggled to Ishuäl was most likely... a secret.

What I was saying in that post is that I believe that, just like Ganrelka, Celmomas did not actually die on the battlefield but was declared dead and taken to Ishuäl in secret a year before Ganrelka, following the Fields of Eleneot battle. Ishuäl was Celmomas’ idea after all and Seswatha is the one who knew about it, what better way to escape to it than by having Seswatha shout "our king is dead" before the physicians have even arrived?

And besides, the prologue says that it was the uncle who lead the heartbreaking assault on Golgotterath’s gates in the early days of the Apocalypse, and elsewhere we are told that it was Celmomas who lead the heartbreaking assault on the Golgotterath’s gates in the early days of the Apocalypse.
Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: Bolivar on November 24, 2014, 04:21:45 pm
It might have been General Sag-Marmau, who led the Second Investiture, hanging from the rope. That one was probably more heartbreaking since it ended with the awakening of the no-god whereas the first dispersed due to fragmentation and surprise Sranc assaults.
Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: profgrape on November 24, 2014, 04:46:13 pm
...and elsewhere we are told that it was Celmomas who lead the heartbreaking assault on the Golgotterath’s gates in the early days of the Apocalypse.

Are you sure about this?  TTT's glossary mentions during the Great Investiture, there were a number of "disasterous" assaults.  But I've been unable to find a reference that links Celmomas to a specific assault on Golgotterath's gates. 

It might have been General Sag-Marmau, who led the Second Investiture, hanging from the rope. That one was probably more heartbreaking since it ended with the awakening of the no-god whereas the first dispersed due to fragmentation and surprise Sranc assaults.

I was thinking the same thing, Bolivar!  And then I found this:

Quote
Sag-Margmau and the greater glory of Kuniuri were annihilated.

 :-\
Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: Wilshire on November 24, 2014, 04:47:21 pm
Who? Me? I think I might have gotten a couple of things mixed up in there, but I definitely still believe that it was Celmomas who was hanging from a rope in the prologue.
Nah you were good. I was using your quote of quotes to clarify the situation locke et al was talking about above me.
Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: Bolivar on November 24, 2014, 05:22:15 pm
Yeah I noticed that in the TTT glossary too although I could see it being an inconsistency on Bakker's part.

Not that I don't like the theory though!
Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: Aural on November 24, 2014, 05:29:24 pm
It might have been General Sag-Marmau, who led the Second Investiture, hanging from the rope. That one was probably more heartbreaking since it ended with the awakening of the no-god whereas the first dispersed due to fragmentation and surprise Sranc assaults.

The problem is that the Second Investiture was far from the early days of the Apocalypse, which according to the glossary began with Celmomas’ call to war against Golgotterath, also called the Great Ordeal, the first one.

Don’t have the books now so I’ll just quote the wiki,

Quote
Traditionally, scholars date the beginning of the Apocalypse with Anasûrimbor Celmomas II's call for a holy war against Golgotterath, his Great Ordeal...

This was some 20 years before the second investiture and a lot happened in between.

But I guess you might argue that the ‘early days of the Apocalypse’ is in fact a reference to the awakening of the No-God? In which case the Second Investiture would seem to fit the description.

Are you sure about this?  TTT's glossary mentions during the Great Investiture, there were a number of "disasterous" assaults.  But I've been unable to find a reference that links Celmomas to a specific assault on Golgotterath's gates.

Celmomas was linked to all of them. He lead the Great Ordeal and the First Investiture when the assaults took place. (The wiki mentions Celmomas being able to hold ‘his coalition’ as long as he did.) And the prologue wasn’t talking about a specific assault but (it seems to me anyway) the assault in general, which is to say the Great Ordeal/First Investiture. And this was heartbreaking enough btw since it ended with a dispute between the Anasurimbors and to Celmomas abandoning ‘his own’ Holy Way. Not to mention Nil’giccas losing his sons and withdrawing to Ishterebinth.
Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: profgrape on November 25, 2014, 12:10:17 am
Alright Madness, as you can clearly see, we can't resolve this without additional information.  Would you please be so kind as to oblige, if only in the interest of harmony for all?
Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: rnblut on November 25, 2014, 04:18:19 am
I think it might help to get back to the main point which is are Seswatha's dreams more or less true and/or can Khellus manipulate them.  We do know that someone has changed them from Akka's report and, as pointed out in the Judging Eye, it occurred around 4132.  Given the unending quality of Seswatha's dreams, it may well be Khellus who is manipulating Akka through his dreams as the tenor and content have radically changed only recently.
Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: profgrape on November 25, 2014, 05:40:23 pm
The timing of when Akka's Dreams changed is somewhat ambiguous.  When Akka tells Mimara about the changes, he starts by saying "I'm not even sure when it began happening." 

We do know, however, that it was at least a year and change before the start of TJE.  After he dreams of Seswatha stubbing his toe, he states:

Quote
"And of course the next night it was back to the Dreams as I knew them.  Back to the blood and the fire and the horror. A year passed, maybe more..."

Then he has the dream about scolding the student and "two months" after that, he dreams about reading Gotagga's Paropolis.  This is the point where he becomes convinced that the dreams are real.  But after that, it's hard to get a sense of how  much time passes.  It definitely seems to be a matter a years, though.

As to who's behind it all, Kellhus remains my top choice.  He's likely the most powerful sorcerer in the world -- sending dreams would be easy for him.  And subtle manipulation over a period of years sounds like exactly the sort of thing you'd expect from a Dunyain. 
3.
Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: Bolivar on November 26, 2014, 02:44:13 am
It would be incredible if Kellhus' abilities have come so far that he could faifthfully rebuild those lost classic texts by virtue of pure deduction and the time he's spent in the Three Seas.
Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: profgrape on November 26, 2014, 03:17:07 am
It would be incredible if Kellhus' abilities have come so far that he could faifthfully rebuild those lost classic texts by virtue of pure deduction and the time he's spent in the Three Seas.

That's definitely where things get a bit sketchy. My best explanation is that Kellhus:

1. Has a link with Seswatha. Most likely formed when he "spoke" with him in TTT.

2. Has received additional information through the link. Either because Seswatha is helping him or through sorcerous coercion.
Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: locke on November 26, 2014, 06:15:26 pm
Golgotteranth Is deep with tunnels in and out, did the barricades go all the way down?  Did they excavate around the ark to build the nimil down? Could kellhus fold space to crush the ark?  Salvage the nimil for uses of the great ordeal?

All typ0s courtesy of Samsung.

Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: Wilshire on December 02, 2014, 01:23:15 am
Golgotteranth Is deep with tunnels in and out, did the barricades go all the way down?  Did they excavate around the ark to build the nimil down? Could kellhus fold space to crush the ark?  Salvage the nimil for uses of the great ordeal?

All typ0s courtesy of Samsung.



Off topic, but, to what end?
Would cladding the entire Ordeal in Nimil, or all the elites, serve a purpose? I doubt it would really save many lives in the end. Its the schoolmen that need protection....

Melt down all the Nimil, make tanks out of it, put schoolmen inside tank, imbed chorae in tank shell. Call it a carapace.

Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: mrganondorf on December 22, 2014, 09:36:23 pm
perhaps Akka is being sent dreams, but not by Kellhus?

i think that the dream/vision that Kellhus has on the circumfix was sent by Moenghus, so maybe Moe could be sending Akka the dreams?  (to me, the end of TWP is so miraculous there's no way it couldn't have been orchestrated via Psukhe)

one point in favor of this, i think the only example of dreams being 'sent' is from Moe to Ishual.  all other instances are people like Akka having a dream (seemingly) on his own, or two sorcerers meeting in some kind of dream space.

what i'm getting at is that perhaps only psukari can send dreams without leaving a mark.  in TDTCB, Akka does not want to use compulsions on Inrau because it would leave some kind of residual mark that would reveal Akka's tampering to the college of Luthymae.  if Akka is being sent dreams by a gnostic sorcerer, then perhaps it would be revealed to him or Mimara.  maybe Akka is too blasted for it to make a difference, but there you go.  Moenghus would be able to send dreams hither and thither with the recipient none the wiser.

P.S. on the crackpot extreme, Moenghus + Cishaurim + 30 years = subtle manipulation of every great person in the 3 seas?  (if and only if sending dreams is not limited to personally knowing the place/person that you are sending too -- i think this is possible, think of when the Cishaurim warped into the Scarlet Spires, presumably, they had never been there before; proof that the Psukhe is greater than the Gnosis?)
Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: Wilshire on December 22, 2014, 10:12:32 pm
Would be real hard for Moe to do that being that he's dead and all. If he ascended into some kind of god-hood, then I suppose he could do such things.
Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: Aural on December 22, 2014, 10:37:23 pm
No, no, no... Moe didn't die: he transferred himself into Cnaiur's body before the Chorae.
Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: mrganondorf on December 22, 2014, 10:49:11 pm
Would be real hard for Moe to do that being that he's dead and all. If he ascended into some kind of god-hood, then I suppose he could do such things.

SOOO NOT DEAD!
Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: Wilshire on December 23, 2014, 12:34:38 am
This isn't a 'is moe dead thread' ;)
Title: Re: *If* Khellus is sending the NC dreams...
Post by: Wilshire on December 23, 2014, 04:58:20 pm
No spam, MG.