So what exactly is the Thousandfold Thought?

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« Reply #45 on: April 26, 2013, 04:22:41 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
I don't think it's to Dunyain plan. I think Moe maybe found some potential way out of the labyrinth (to tie into Galbrod's idea).

I think some other people have suggested a link between what the people of Earwa believe and what IS. Tying into magic, which is something Ishual Dunyain just don't get into. Perhaps if you can control enough people, you control the labyrinth, and so can escape it? Perhaps some non causal time travel event, as escape? Maybe the timeline were seeing is a second one, the events rewritten by Kellhus to this configuration after a prior one where he attained the TTT by some other path. Perhaps in his madness, he seeded the prophesy.

And then Donny Darko shoots the guy in the rabbit costume...

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« Reply #46 on: April 26, 2013, 04:22:50 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: Madness
Also, I really am of the opinion that the Thousandfold Thought is one artifact. Its the probability trance collapsing into long-term assurances, things that, no-matter what, will come to pass - depending, of course, on the Dunyain trying to explore the world's circumstances to that extent.
History has inertia?

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« Reply #47 on: April 26, 2013, 04:23:00 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Not so much inertia, a la paul's witness of the future creates that future. Rather, the collapse of futures, or the inevitability of them, comes from a large summation of probabilities and, a la the Seldon Plan.

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« Reply #48 on: April 26, 2013, 04:23:05 pm »
Quote from: Galbrod
I've percieved the difference between Moe and Kelllhus as an in game - off game separation. Moe appears to see the world and the way it works as something given and is focused on  'winning the game' by clever schemes and maneovers, while Kellhus appears to be more focused on 'changing the rules of the game'.  From this perspective it would be natural for the Tf thought in Moe's variant to become a strategy to maneover for power and eliminate any in-game threats (such as the consult). I think that it's hard to pinpoint Kellhus' variant of the Tf thought (as we can no longer follow his point of view) but it appears to be related to religious belief and the recreation of meaning within Earwa. In effect, changing the way the world works and redraw the difference between the inside/outside by combining the wordly/inside and the divine/outside in his person.. Kellhus ambition appears to have similarities to the ambitions of the consult, but while the consult appears to be primarily motivated by their fear of damnation (what comes after) Kellhus main motivation appears to be the classical dunyain ambition to be master of your own actions (to become a self-moving soul).

By the way, do any of you know if RSB has taken the term dunyain from the turkish term dünyanın, meaning 'world'?

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« Reply #49 on: April 26, 2013, 04:23:12 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Interesting perspective but I don't agree in the direction you went.
Moe was playing for the Consult. His plan to save the world was to seal it from the gods, them being the primary evil that needed to be defeated.
Kell wants to save the world from the Consult and their No-God, for they are the primary evil. His idea is wholly opposite of the Consult, who would separate the world from Earwa. While not necessairly wanting to bring the hundred more power, he certainly is trying to prevent them from being cut off.

I think Kell set out as a pure Dunyain, the Absolute being his only real concern, he has likely moved far beyond that limited perspective.

Galbrod you would probably like the "Moenghus is a lying liar who lies" thread. You should read though it if you havent, it discusses lots of these topics.

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« Reply #50 on: April 26, 2013, 04:24:00 pm »
Quote from: Duskweaver
Quote from: Galbrod
By the way, do any of you know if RSB has taken the term dunyain from the turkish term dünyanın, meaning 'world'?
Probably. 'Tekne' is Turkish too (meaning 'vessel', as in 'ship' or 'ark').

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« Reply #51 on: April 26, 2013, 04:24:15 pm »
Quote from: Galbrod
Wilshire
Good tip, the 'lying liar' was a really interesting thread! Being a newbie on the forum, I'm super-impressed with depth of knowledge that people on this forum have.  Borrowing from the 'lies' thread I agree that a fair interpretation could be that Kellhus is aiming to be ' the savior by leaving the world open, as opposed to Moe the savior by shutting it'.  I however have a hard time seeing Kellhus taking the role of saviour for anybody but himself. Thus the similarity between Kellhus and the consult would not be the choice of method (reshape belief versus shutting the world) but rather the motivation to make yourself independent of the gods on the outside. These are however still perceptions from my side from reading the books just one time and I realise that I have not (by far)  as good a grip as the regulars on this forum have. I've just started re-reading TDTCB and I realise that I will probably have to re-evaluate a lot :-)

Dusk
Interesting. Do you think that RSB has borrowed the terms randomly, or should we assume that the shared etymological connection between the turkish terms 'dünyanın' and 'tekne' would indicate that there exist some sort of connection between the concepts within the world of Bakker?

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« Reply #52 on: April 26, 2013, 04:24:22 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
Heh, I think if he's preventing a cutting off from the hundred gods, it'd be because his ambition is beyond Moe's, reaching to master...well, why would you cut off what you seek to dominate?

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« Reply #53 on: April 26, 2013, 04:24:28 pm »
Quote from: Duskweaver
Quote from: Galbrod
Do you think that RSB has borrowed the terms randomly, or should we assume that the shared etymological connection between the turkish terms 'dünyanın' and 'tekne' would indicate that there exist some sort of connection between the concepts within the world of Bakker?
I think the connection is that Turks and Greeks are traditional enemies. Those concepts closest and most familiar to 'us'/the 'real' world (science/technology and a rationalistic/materialistic worldview) are rendered in one language, while the concepts of 'magic' are rendered in the (in a sense) 'opposing' language.

Where RSB shows real brilliance, IMO, is by putting them the way round he does. Greek is more familiar to us than Turkish, so you might expect the familiar 'real world' concepts to be in Greek, and the wierd (to us) magic in Turkish. But no! He uses the 'familiar' (to us) language for those things that are familiar in Earwa and the more 'alien' (to us) language for those concepts 'alien' to Earwa. Immersion ensues.

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« Reply #54 on: April 26, 2013, 04:24:38 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Galbrod
Wilshire
Borrowing from the 'lies' thread I agree that a fair interpretation could be that Kellhus is aiming to be ' the savior by leaving the world open, as opposed to Moe the savior by shutting it'. 

I however have a hard time seeing Kellhus taking the role of saviour for anybody but himself. Thus the similarity between Kellhus and the consult would not be the choice of method (reshape belief versus shutting the world) but rather the motivation to make yourself independent of the gods on the outside.


First, I'd strongly recommend doing a reread. I've only read the series twice myself, but that second read was amazing. The first go through I barely knew what was going on and I was focused on the big picture, which inevitably means that the small things get left out. On the second time thought I really got to focus in on the minute and it was a whole new experience.

Ah good, a dissenting opinion. It gets rather dull around here when everyone starts agreeing.
Thats a solid theory. I can see how Kell would come off as a bit self centered (maybe more than a bit), so the leap from self centered jackass to world-savior might be rather difficult. Saving just himself seems logical, but I don't see how Kell could accomplish that. Any ideas?

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« Reply #55 on: April 26, 2013, 04:24:46 pm »
Quote from: Madness
This has the makings of a new thread and I like the dialectic you're highlighting, Duskweaver.

It makes me wonder though. Tekne, is almost most certainly derived from, Techne, a Greek term that is often translated as craftsmanship, craft, or art (Wiki) - though, I've encountered plenty of other sources, some as loose a translation as technology.

But, obviously, the Turkish is a good connotation too. Gah!!! How much do you know, Bakker?!

Quote from: Galbrod
I've percieved the difference between Moe and Kelllhus as an in game - off game separation. Moe appears to see the world and the way it works as something given and is focused on 'winning the game' by clever schemes and maneovers, while Kellhus appears to be more focused on 'changing the rules of the game'.

+1 for metaphor.

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« Reply #56 on: April 26, 2013, 04:24:55 pm »
Quote from: Galbrod
Concerning Kallhus saving himself, well the short version would be that if dominant external influence (primarily damnation) comes from the god/gods (whether based on a consensus reality formula relating to the beliefs of individuals or not) the solution becomes to make a god of yourself.

:-) thanks Mad!

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« Reply #57 on: April 26, 2013, 04:25:02 pm »
Quote from: Triskele
"First, I'd strongly recommend doing a reread."

Me too.  There is just too much in this series to get anything near full appreciation on one read.  Time permitting, of course.


"But, obviously, the Turkish is a good connotation too. Gah!!! How much do you know, Bakker?!"


Thirty years, Father.  How great is your power?



Wait...what just happened?  I blacked out for a second.

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« Reply #58 on: April 26, 2013, 04:25:11 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Cheers, Galbrod.

Trisk... man, you solved the Second Apocalypse. It was crazy ;).

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« Reply #59 on: April 26, 2013, 04:25:24 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: Galbrod
I've percieved the difference between Moe and Kelllhus as an in game - off game separation. Moe appears to see the world and the way it works as something given and is focused on  'winning the game' by clever schemes and maneovers, while Kellhus appears to be more focused on 'changing the rules of the game'. 
Very nice
Quote
From this perspective it would be natural for the Tf thought in Moe's variant to become a strategy to maneover for power and eliminate any in-game threats (such as the consult). I think that it's hard to pinpoint Kellhus' variant of the Tf thought (as we can no longer follow his point of view) but it appears to be related to religious belief and the recreation of meaning within Earwa.
I'll pinpoint for you the moment TTT changed for him (or as we were talking upthread about the future possibilities collapsing into a new direction (prior to this, Cnaiur noted that the Holy War + Kiyuth would make it effortless for Kellhus to travel the entire Steppe to Shimeh if he so desired, then Kellhus makes a mistake after this in the chapter by thinking that Cnaiur has told him that the pilgrimmage routes to Shimeh are closed by the holy war, so it seems that the path Kellhus took was unexpected, and it wasn't until this quoted moment that TTT took a new form):

Quote from: TDTCB
Kellhus watched while the Scylvendi took her again. With her whimpers, her suffocated cries, it seemed the ground beneath slowly spun, as though stars had stopped their cycle and the earth had begun to wheel instead. There was something . . . something here, he could sense. Something outraged.

From what darkness had this come?

Something is happening to me, Father.

Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Darkness that Comes Before (The Prince of Nothing) (p. 383). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.
btw, Serwe's sections on a reread are completely staggering/breathtaking. Whoa. (and in terms of something outraged, Serwe's sections following this explain just who in particular might be outraged, and Kellhus may internalize this perception (of the Gods/Ancestors Serwe so ardently attends to) as his own perception, that rather than seeing the darkness from which the gods work through the world he sees it as arising from within him.  In other words he's blind to the forces that are moving him.  (note in the lines preceding this, he casually mentions that he looks through her face into her soul, which is interesting if you don't take it as a metaphor, that Kellhus while narrating his internal story believes he can see the soul).  And it is after this that he decides the very un-Dunyain approach that he must seize total and absolute control of the Holy War: Kellhus the mighty gorilla roars his challenge and beats his chest (and this thought all falling after Cnaiur keeps mating by being the big gorilla).

But I'm getting ahead of myself, I need to get the reread threads for these chapters up and roaring.