[What Came Before]

Lol, you play anything? I'm always down to try my hand at creation.

[What Came Before]

I think the idea is that proto-civilization, alien or divine, are easy tropes - not necessarily used, or overused, until the past ten years and the 2012 hype.

Thus, cuneiform the oldest discovered human text is the logical link between us and the Other, showcasing inherent ideas of progression too, neh?

Yep. Something like cuneiform is both familiar to us (written language is only used by humans, so the writer must be vaguely similar to us), while also distinctly alien (the cuneiform script looks "weird" to us and doesn't resemble any European alphabets or East-Asian scripts).

It's indeed the logical link between us and That Which Came Before, making cuneiform a fitting script for both the Nonmen and the creator aliens in "Prometheus".

[What Came Before]

To get back to topic:

Has anyone else noticed how static the Three Seas are, technologically? It's obviously not as bad as in the ASOIAF books, but it's still there - the Apocalypse happened nearly two thousand years before the events in the PON books, yet the civilization of the Three Seas has seen very little change. There's some mentions of Eärwa being in a Bronze Age before and during the Apocalypse, but not much else. The Nonmen have been a dead civilization since the Womb-Plague, and the Scylvendi have their religious reasons for shunning all outlander influences, but the Three Seas nations should've changed more over the ages.

(In fact, the bronze aside, the Ancient North seems to have been more advanced than the Three Seas in many ways. They obviously had better sorcery (the Gnosis) and much better technology (Nonman-influenced machinery that runs on enslaved souls instead of fuel) than the current human nations. Even all the much-quoted philosophers in Bakker-world are from antiquity. We definitely get the feeling that pre-Apocalypse was the "Classical world", while the era of PON is a "medieval" era.)

It also strikes me as weird that Kellhus' empire hasn't seen any technological progress. Kellhus is a superhuman analytical genius, so he's definitely able to spark a Golden Age of science if he wants to. But he doesn't. Things remain the same, more or less (with the only exception of women's rights progressing). We don't see any better weaponry, better technology, or even any impressive new architecture to the god-king. As far as the Average Akka is concerned, nothing has changed since the Ikurei years.

[What Came Before]

Yep. Something like cuneiform is both familiar to us (written language is only used by humans, so the writer must be vaguely similar to us), while also distinctly alien (the cuneiform script looks "weird" to us and doesn't resemble any European alphabets or East-Asian scripts).

It's indeed the logical link between us and That Which Came Before, making cuneiform a fitting script for both the Nonmen and the creator aliens in "Prometheus".

+1 - like where your head is at .

To your latest - always just trying to paint a broad horizon with caveat thoughts:

Bakker suggested on Zombie Three-Seas that Nonmen Civilization was apparently declining even before the Fall - remember too that the Womb-Plague happens possibly as late as three hundred, four hundred years after the Fall depending on how old Cu'jara Cinmoi is at the time (as he grows old before Nin'janjin returns with the promise of immortality).

I always gauged the Breaking of the Gates at somewhere around Mesopotamia or the Early Dynastic Period of Egypt - Egypt is actually a decent cultural mirror for Earwa as many don't realize the Egyptians were practicing archeologists, studying themselves by the latter years of their ascendency. While the Crusades are an obvious reflection of the Holy War (specifically the Second Crusade, I believe), I don't think that Three-Seas Earwa actually ranks that late in the Medieval Period but closer to the Declining Roman Empire (the Nansur?)?

What do you think?

Kellhus has modified the Engines of War, created new sorcerous objects, rebuilt the Andiamine Palace to include the Mirrored Labyrinth and the Truth Room (an upside-down replica of a Ziggurat).

I think, our intuitions of these changes is probably skewed by the Layers of Revelation. We might encounter random mechanical machines next book that were allegedly always there.

Also, in line with this thinking, Kellhus can skip a couple thousands years of scientific inquiry by simply traveling to Golgotterath, right? And there is the simple, yet demanding, effort he must exert in conditioning Clockwork Earwa - probably not a simple 9 - 5 ?

As I said, just thoughts to drop in the bucket.

[What Came Before]

Bakker suggested on Zombie Three-Seas that Nonmen Civilization was apparently declining even before the Fall - remember too that the Womb-Plague happens possibly as late as three hundred, four hundred years after the Fall depending on how old Cu'jara Cinmoi is at the time (as he grows old before Nin'janjin returns with the promise of immortality).

Interesting. I didn't know it was declining even before their women got wiped out. Still, it makes sense that the Nonmen are stuck in the same undead state ever since then. The human nations, not so much.

I always gauged the Breaking of the Gates at somewhere around Mesopotamia or the Early Dynastic Period of Egypt - Egypt is actually a decent cultural mirror for Earwa as many don't realize the Egyptians were practicing archeologists, studying themselves by the latter years of their ascendency.

Good comparison, but aren't the Nonmen the counterpart of Sumerians/Mesopotamians/Egyptians in that world? The ancient pre-Apocalypse human civilizations are more like the counterpart of the Ancient Greeks. At least, this is how it feels to me.

I had no idea the Egyptians were studying themselves. At which point did "New Ancient Egypt" fall so far from "Old Ancient Egypt" that it started studying its own history. (It was definitely dead by the time Cleopatra's ancestors conquered it, but a lot of slow decline must have taken place before.)

While the Crusades are an obvious reflection of the Holy War (specifically the Second Crusade, I believe), I don't think that Three-Seas Earwa actually ranks that late in the Medieval Period but closer to the Declining Roman Empire (the Nansur?)

The Holy War = the First Crusade.

The Nansur aren't the original Roman Empire, but the Byzantine Empire in its declining stages (around same time as the Crusades).

Kellhus has modified the Engines of War, created new sorcerous objects, rebuilt the Andiamine Palace to include the Mirrored Labyrinth and the Truth Room (an upside-down replica of a Ziggurat).

I can't remember anything about war engines being modified by Kellhus. A quick search for "engines" in my PDF file of TJE doesn't turn up anything.

New sorcerous objects - okay, I'll give you that one. He did create a sorcerous fire that lets him spy on people, IIRC. This is pretty cool, but it's still just one thing and doesn't feel quite enough. You may be right, and we'll only hear about Kellhus' sorcerous superweapons when they're actually used.   

The Andiamine palace being rebuilt with a labyrinth is also cool, but it's hardly a big invention. Plus it's one of those secretive and sneaky things that benefit Kellhus but don't make any "splash" in the bigger picture - again, as far as the average dude can see, everything's the same as in the Ikurei era. (It's not like he built a new Palace of the Aspect-Emperor with his super-calculating skill, that makes every other building look like a molehill, so that people can see and marvel at their god-king's power. The new Kellhusian era doesn't have any architectural landmarks at all.) 

Also, in line with this thinking, Kellhus can skip a couple thousands years of scientific inquiry by simply traveling to Golgotterath, right?

Obviously. I wasn't really talking about Kellhus himself, though, since the dude's already a living demigod. More like "why does his army bother dragging along siege towers, when he could've invented siege weapons to knock down Sakarpus' walls." Or maybe like "why doesn't this genius invent ships with metal hulls, so the Great Ordeal can sail up to the northern lands instead of going by foot and getting raped by Sranc."

[What Came Before]

Lol. Love it, Auriga.

Good comparison, but aren't the Nonmen the counterpart of Sumerians/Mesopotamians/Egyptians in that world? The ancient pre-Apocalypse human civilizations are more like the counterpart of the Ancient Greeks. At least, this is how it feels to me.

I had no idea the Egyptians were studying themselves. At which point did "New Ancient Egypt" fall so far from "Old Ancient Egypt" that it started studying its own history. (It was definitely dead by the time Cleopatra's ancestors conquered it, but a lot of slow decline must have taken place before.)

See I definitely feel like the Nonmen are supposed to evoke those enigmatic proto-civilizations (Atlantis) or ancient aliens (Annunaki, Nephelim) rather than ancient human civilizations.

As for the Egypt question... we can't really answer it all too well. The lectures and scholarly accounts I've been exposed to suggest as early as 2500 BCE, Old Kingdom, First Intermediate Period, and definitley after - it all depends on how accurate our understanding of Early Dynastic and pre-Early Dynastic period are in the first place.

The Holy War = the First Crusade.

The Nansur aren't the original Roman Empire, but the Byzantine Empire in its declining stages (around same time as the Crusades).

I was just scouring Zombie Three Seas and I came across the same thoughts... Now I'm wondering why and when I decided Second Crusade was more fitting. Is there any evidence that Bakker is exploiting associations across all the Crusades?

I can't remember anything about war engines being modified by Kellhus. A quick search for "engines" in my PDF file of TJE doesn't turn up anything.

Yeah, sorry, I like titles.

Kellhus modifies siege instruments before Caraskand, designing both towers - complete novelties to Proyas. Also, its mentioned that he designed the fourteen towers of the Ordeal.

Lol, Bakker is notorious for these one off sentences that sum little things like this up and are impossible to find later. Sorweel's perspective, TJE?

The Andiamine palace being rebuilt with a labyrinth is also cool, but it's hardly a big invention. Plus it's one of those secretive and sneaky things that benefit Kellhus but don't make any "splash" in the bigger picture - again, as far as the average dude can see, everything's the same as in the Ikurei era. (It's not like he built a new Palace of the Aspect-Emperor with his super-calculating skill, that makes every other building look like a molehill, so that people can see and marvel at their god-king's power. The new Kellhusian era doesn't have any architectural landmarks at all.)

Made a splash to me - Esmenet recalls Kellhus having cycles of slaves and workers killed to maintain the secret of the Labyrinth.

Again, priority. It takes alot of manpower to build Architectural Landmark... why fashion Dune-like palaces when it detracts from the war effort?

New sorcerous objects - okay, I'll give you that one. He did create a sorcerous fire that lets him spy on people, IIRC. This is pretty cool, but it's still just one thing and doesn't feel quite enough. You may be right, and we'll only hear about Kellhus' sorcerous superweapons when they're actually used.

Pretty sure TUC is just going to have us dropping jaws all over - what?! They have that? He can do that? They have that?!

More like "why does his army bother dragging along siege towers, when he could've invented siege weapons to knock down Sakarpus' walls." Or maybe like "why doesn't this genius invent ships with metal hulls, so the Great Ordeal can sail up to the northern lands instead of going by foot and getting raped by Sranc."

Hmm... again, how much time can Kellhus personally devote to these ambitions... I mean, if he wasn't dependent on mass human society for various reasons, he would just walk away from the Three-Seas and spend all his time doing whatever he wanted?

Also, sorcery makes a difference... For instance, I think Kellhus himself blows some holes in the walls at Sakarpus. Siege warfare technology, rather than being primitive, seems non-existent in Earwa? I wonder if the Inrithi made siege weapons in the Scholastic Wars...

[What Came Before]

See I definitely feel like the Nonmen are supposed to evoke those enigmatic proto-civilizations (Atlantis) or ancient aliens (Annunaki, Nephelim) rather than ancient human civilizations.

That too. I also thought of the Nephilim half-humans, the Annunaki, the Titans, and other demi-god aliens. But it's also obvious that Bakker has also borrowed from ancient human civilizations, at least with the external trappings of the Nonmen's culture (war chariots like Egyptians, cuneiform writing like Sumerians, etc.)

And yes, I know that Shigek is supposed to be Egypt, and the Ancient North is supposed to evoke Mesopotamia with its bizarro Sumerian-Germanic language.

As for the Egypt question... we can't really answer it all too well. The lectures and scholarly accounts I've been exposed to suggest as early as 2500 BCE, Old Kingdom, First Intermediate Period, and definitley after - it all depends on how accurate our understanding of Early Dynastic and pre-Early Dynastic period are in the first place.

Thanks for that. I find this history-about-history pretty fascinating.

Kellhus modifies siege instruments before Caraskand, designing both towers - complete novelties to Proyas. Also, its mentioned that he designed the fourteen towers of the Ordeal.

Hmm, didn't notice that part. You mean Shimeh, though?

Lol, Bakker is notorious for these one off sentences that sum little things like this up and are impossible to find later. Sorweel's perspective, TJE?

Yep, it's Sorweel's chapter when he sees the siege towers coming.

And yeah, Bakker's use of little throw-away sentences for worldbuilding is really weird. Sometimes, really big things have always been there, but everyone takes them for granted and they're just mentioned in a convo maybe once or twice. It's realistic, but for the average reader it can get pretty mind-boggling. For example, this part in WLW:

The White-Luck Warrior:"Kellhus had explained nations and polities to her, how they worked like the Cironji automata so prized by the more fashionable caste-nobility. "All states are raised upon the backs of men," he had told her after the final capitulation of High Ainon."
Me: They have robots? Wat.

(These automata are never mentioned again, ever.)

Made a splash to me - Esmenet recalls Kellhus having cycles of slaves and workers killed to maintain the secret of the Labyrinth. Again, priority. It takes alot of manpower to build Architectural Landmark... why fashion Dune-like palaces when it detracts from the war effort?

Slaughtering thousands to keep a labyrinth secret isn't that much more labor-saving than having those same people build a palace. Anyways, I'm not being anal about buildings and monuments in particular, just that this new Kellhusian age seems to lack any physical landmarks. There's no real "symbol of the new era".

Hmm... again, how much time can Kellhus personally devote to these ambitions... I mean, if he wasn't dependent on mass human society for various reasons, he would just walk away from the Three-Seas and spend all his time doing whatever he wanted?

You're probably right there.

Also, sorcery makes a difference... For instance, I think Kellhus himself blows some holes in the walls at Sakarpus. Siege warfare technology, rather than being primitive, seems non-existent in Earwa?

Catapults and battering rams and siege towers are used plenty in the Holy War (how did you miss this?), in almost every battle, especially when the Scarlet Spires are on strike. The siege technology seems very "High Middle Ages" to me.

The Sauglish flashback in TJE also shows the ancient Norsirai using massive siege-crossbows as flak artillery to shoot down dragons. I imagine the Norsirai used both siege engines and sorcery to take cities - one of the spells that takes down Wutteat in the fifth book is (*copy-pastes from e-book*) "the Noviratic Spike, a Gnostic War-Cant contrived to batter through great city gates".

[What Came Before]

I think a lot of technology swims around at similar development levels until there's a cascade of catalysts that feed on each other in a positive reinforcement cycles that lead to technological development/progress.  Shouldn't China have a couple millenia head start on westerners, tech wise?  Shouldn't the Arabic world, with the numerals, be way ahead of the rest of Europe with their head start in mathematics? 

In other words, there are sort of naturally occurring upper bounds to technology levels that are due to deficiencies in human socialization or custom, the upper bound is defined by cultural restraints rather than what a simple linear progression would suggest.

For instance, there's no Leonardo da Vinci without Visaleus, the revolution in Renaissance art starts (with other contributing factors) with the doctors who partnered with artists to get a better understanding of human anatomy (often through grave robbing and illegal exhumation of corpses for dissection, for which they risked death).  The establishment of the university systems (an evolution from direction patronage) particularly in Jena (and elsewhere in Europe) and the institution of a publish or perish system of evaluation and promotion also helped (an enormous cultural change from trade secrets to open source information, no longer did you have genius knowledge or revolutionary insight dying with the person who thought it up).  These sort of events are not in isolation, and shouldn't be taken that way, rather the five-six hundred years preceding the present, primarily in western Europe, had a unique confluence of events that fed into a virtuous cycle of progress that shattered the culturally instituted upper bounds on technological progress.

Earwa has never had these virtuous cycles of progress occur outside of the Nonman tutelage, they've either been cut off culturally, or impossible to occur given the cultures involved.

[What Came Before]

Good point, Lockesnow. I hadn't thought of that before (although, being a reader of Spengler, I should've thought of it. Each civilization has its self-contained life cycle, and there's no such thing as linear progress for everyone). Eärwa is still very much a medieval society, with a clear "glass ceiling" for how much scientific progress is allowed.

Anyways, I started this thread mostly out of nerdish interest and curiosity in what kind of science exists (or could potentially exist) in Bakker's world. This is just brainstorming, a way of mental masturbation really.

Still, I'd like to hear more suggestions (for example - "how do the Three Seas measure time?" or "what other soul-fueled engines could the Nonmen have used"?) Scouring the books for tiny details isn't really necessary, think of this as semi-fanfiction instead. Let your imaginations run free. Speculate as much as you like.

[What Came Before]

Me: They have robots? Wat.

Meh. The Greeks certainly had complex mechanical devices at least as far back as the 3rd century BC (and Pindar described things that might have been humanoid automata another couple of centuries before that), and there is some evidence that Chinese engineers could create similar automata as early as c.1000 BC. The Arabs had invented programmable mechanical musicians by the 13th century AD.

Cironj being an island famous for its automata would perhaps make it an analogue for the real world's Rhodes, which apparently had that reputation in the Hellenistic period.

[What Came Before]

Meh. The Greeks certainly had complex mechanical devices at least as far back as the 3rd century BC (and Pindar described things that might have been humanoid automata another couple of centuries before that), and there is some evidence that Chinese engineers could create similar automata as early as c.1000 BC.

Didn't the ancient Greeks invent a machine (for calculating the seasons, IIRC) that was the prototype of an analog computer? I dunno how far they got in developing mechanical devices - IIRC, they did have animatronic statues and some sort of steam-engine prototype. I haven't heard of Chinese automata, but then again, I'm very hazy on Chinese history.

The Arabs had invented programmable mechanical musicians by the 13th century AD.

That's awesome. Exactly how were the things programmed to play music? Clockwork? Steam power?

[What Came Before]

That too. I also thought of the Nephilim half-humans, the Annunaki, the Titans, and other demi-god aliens. But it's also obvious that Bakker has also borrowed from ancient human civilizations, at least with the external trappings of the Nonmen's culture (war chariots like Egyptians, cuneiform writing like Sumerians, etc.)

And yes, I know that Shigek is supposed to be Egypt, and the Ancient North is supposed to evoke Mesopotamia with its bizarro Sumerian-Germanic language.

...


Thanks for that. I find this history-about-history pretty fascinating.

Bakker only has human cognition to narrate with - lest he's an alien or a mutant?

+1

Hmm, didn't notice that part. You mean Shimeh, though?

I do, indeed.

"The carpenter-overseers who had directed the assembly of both toweres swore they were miracles of engineering - as they should be, given that the Warrior-Prophet had designed them" (LE TTT, p308)

Forgive my momentary lapses. Life is distracting me .

Slaughtering thousands to keep a labyrinth secret isn't that much more labor-saving than having those same people build a palace. Anyways, I'm not being anal about buildings and monuments in particular, just that this new Kellhusian age seems to lack any physical landmarks. There's no real "symbol of the new era".

I wasn't necessarily speaking of labor-saving as opposed to a Landmark effort that equals the same sustained effort of Monuments, added with the hidden disposal.

+1 regardless.

Catapults and battering rams and siege towers are used plenty in the Holy War (how did you miss this?), in almost every battle, especially when the Scarlet Spires are on strike. The siege technology seems very "High Middle Ages" to me.

The Sauglish flashback in TJE also shows the ancient Norsirai using massive siege-crossbows as flak artillery to shoot down dragons. I imagine the Norsirai used both siege engines and sorcery to take cities - one of the spells that takes down Wutteat in the fifth book is (*copy-pastes from e-book*) "the Noviratic Spike, a Gnostic War-Cant contrived to batter through great city gates".

Lapses, friend. Though to be fair, the only specific mention of siege engines I remember off hand is:

"Teams of oxen and men were sent into the hills to fell timber for siege engines" (TWP, p509).

But then, Bakker's writing blows me away so while his war-craft is par for demographic, all of his other writing excels so much is distracts from those "mundane" passages .

In other words, there are sort of naturally occurring upper bounds to technology levels that are due to deficiencies in human socialization or custom, the upper bound is defined by cultural restraints rather than what a simple linear progression would suggest.

+1. In many cases, it's a simple phenomenon and, others, a complex matrix.

Earwa has never had these virtuous cycles of progress occur outside of the Nonman tutelage, they've either been cut off culturally, or impossible to occur given the cultures involved.

I read a Cu'jara Cinmoi quote today about the fact that the Five Tribes were uniformly patriarchal because of their shared history.

Anyways, I started this thread mostly out of nerdish interest and curiosity in what kind of science exists (or could potentially exist) in Bakker's world. This is just brainstorming, a way of mental masturbation really.

+1

Still, I'd like to hear more suggestions (for example - "how do the Three Seas measure time?" or "what other soul-fueled engines could the Nonmen have used"?) Scouring the books for tiny details isn't really necessary, think of this as semi-fanfiction instead. Let your imaginations run free. Speculate as much as you like.

Hmm... lockesnow quoted Esmenet from TWP on Westeros that suggests, according to her, the common conception is Geocentric Universe.

I'll let myself sleep on this one.

Meh. The Greeks certainly had complex mechanical devices at least as far back as the 3rd century BC (and Pindar described things that might have been humanoid automata another couple of centuries before that), and there is some evidence that Chinese engineers could create similar automata as early as c.1000 BC. The Arabs had invented programmable mechanical musicians by the 13th century AD.

Cironj being an island famous for its automata would perhaps make it an analogue for the real world's Rhodes, which apparently had that reputation in the Hellenistic period.

+1. Antikythera Mechanism.

Didn't the ancient Greeks invent a machine (for calculating the seasons, IIRC) that was the prototype of an analog computer? I dunno how far they got in developing mechanical devices - IIRC, they did have animatronic statues and some sort of steam-engine prototype. I haven't heard of Chinese automata, but then again, I'm very hazy on Chinese history.

The Chinese basically had a steam-powered Ford Factory industry in the 12th Century.

That's awesome. Exactly how were the things programmed to play music? Clockwork? Steam power?

Clockwork, gears, & water turbines. Semi-related but The Discovery of Time, Edited by Stuart McCready is a fantastic read.

[What Came Before]

Didn't the ancient Greeks invent a machine (for calculating the seasons, IIRC) that was the prototype of an analog computer?

You're thinking of the Antikythera Mechanism. It did more than "calculate the seasons", though. It accurately calculated the positions of the Sun, Moon and all the (then) five known planets, lunar phases, solar and lunar eclipses, and the correct dates for the Olympic Games.

That's awesome. Exactly how were the things programmed to play music? Clockwork? Steam power?

Repositionable pegs moving past a set of levers, basically. Water/gravity-powered, controlled by hydraulic pressure switches.

[What Came Before]

Just on the gem stone polishing - that is rather pointless, isn't it? You're not living - so why bother dragging out the affair?

[What Came Before]

so why bother dragging out the affair?

Pride.