[MSJ]

This is just in response to Hiro and my exhange and the confusion henceforth. Again, apologies Hiro if you thought it directed at you and can see why you could think that. I'm a internet stooge sometimes and don't convey enough information in my posts for people to clearly understand my intent.

First, let me give you a little background on me. I as raised by my grandparents. My biological mom had me when she was 15, dad was 17. Neither were fit to raise me and my younger brother and my father's parents raised me. My BM (biological mom from here on out) then went on to marry a black man. Never had a great relationship with BM when I was younger, let's just say she had her own personal demons. But my step-father was there for me to make sir I had a relationship with my half sisters (whom are obviously half black). Till this day I have more love for him than my BM. I had great relationships with my sister's, all but one who seemed to think of me as a honky (funny since we both came out of a white woman, though that is bridge under the water.). But me giving everyone this back story of my life is to show as a "so-called privileged white make I've dealt with racism my entire life. I live in WV, where these kinds familys, you could say, can be look down upon. I've been called n****s lover for simply having black sisters, dealt with my BM being stared at and sneered at while in public with all these "different"looking kids. And that doesn't even touch the surface, those are some vanilla examples, there have been worse, fights where my step-father didn't put up with that. What I'm saying is im no stranger to racism. I've seen the uglines of it And fought against it my entire life.

That being said, in referring to Wilshire's statement is was more in regard to people wanting to be offended, wanting to feel wrong. It's EVERYONE, every ethnicity, social demographic, the rich, the poor and son and so on. I've made several attempts to call people in this bullshit on Facebook and ask them to try and find a solution to these problems. Guess what? No responses, other than from my aisters who know my intentions, know where my heart on these issues truly lie. And, it's not just minorities or women, it's white men, executives, businessmen, again EVERYONE. It's like everyone feels they have to right to blame their problems on everyone else, take insult to any words that might offend their ears, without looking at intent, exact what Wilshire said.

So, I'll ask you guys. What can we do to stop all of this division? To stop everyone bitching and moaning and blaming their lot in life on racism and sexism and any other ism you can think of. It's so rampant and, to me, causes more harm than good. It just keeps the division and hate at the front and center. I've yet to have anyone offer me any kind of solution, or hell, a way to start moving towards one. Or, is this just human nature and this will always exist? This want to take sides and "go to war" over what in my mind, could be solved by open minds and a willingness to cooperate.

So there, I've opened up, told you a little about my background and where I'm coming from and how I see these issues. I'm sure this thread will get looked at and no one will want to touch it. But, it's something that weighs heavily on me. As a white male, I've experienced the hate of racism first hand, when supposedly that cannot be the case, because of white privilege and all that. I'd just like to hear other stories and thoughts on how, maybe, one day we can all co-exist as humans. Not by the color of our skin or how much money we live on, or our sexual orientation and so forth.

[Garet Jax]

I will not weigh in on most of the questions posed here as I am on my own mission of self discovery related to many of the issues listed.


I will, however, parrot something that was told to me once.  For context, I am a firm believer in "family first".  So, no one in my family can ever "do me any wrong", and I will do anything for them.  I will overlook wrongdoings that have been done to me and still support, love, and accept them.  But for some odd reason, my "accepting" attitude stops there.


Forgive the misspelling if it is the case, but I believe the term to be "Oikeiosis" (or something like that).  If I can find a way to accept all of humanity as part of my family then my tolerance level sky rockets to Nirvana type levels.  Sure, I will be taken advantage of, but like I said, I won't be offended by it and will be content with the way I run my life.  The only downfall, imo, is that it only changes me, and not the rest of humanity, but small steps, eh?  Lead by example and whatnot?

[Redeagl]

I am very very very sorry for the racist harrasment you had to deal with MSJ
In my life I have never encountered racism until I was a regular in the Internet.I have encountered Brown,Black,white,ginger and even a few Asian people and never did I saw any racism. Simply the idea of judging people based on their skin color is too stupid and inane for me to understand and still it is.Also I have to agree about the people getting easily offended thing ( no I don't mean you Hiro) the whole " black lives matter " movement for example is shockingly racist. Black lives??! WTF. All I know is you don't call someone black or white unless you are describing them. Does skin color really matter in anything? How can someone be that inane? Understanding how can someone judge another from their skin color is beyond my level of intelligence.Racism stops when people stop saying black and white people. This is it. Again I am sorry MSJ for what happened to you, I really am. 

[MSJ]

I am very very very sorry for the racist harrasment you had to deal with MSJ
In my life I have never encountered racism until I was a regular in the Internet.I have encountered Brown,Black,white,ginger and even a few Asian people and never did I saw any racism. Simply the idea of judging people based on their skin color is too stupid and inane for me to understand and still it is.Also I have to agree about the people getting easily offended thing ( no I don't mean you Hiro) the whole " black lives matter " movement for example is shockingly racist. Black lives??! WTF. All I know is you don't call someone black or white unless you are describing them. Does skin color really matter in anything? How can someone be that inane? Understanding how can someone judge another from their skin color is beyond my level of intelligence.Racism stops when people stop saying black and white people. This is it. Again I am sorry MSJ for what happened to you, I really am.

Well thanks, Redeagl, and don't feel sorry. I dont, it's shaped me into the human I am. I call my sister's black all the time, and along with all my black friends. I can see where it can be construed as racist, where I live it's normal and no offense is taken. See, that's where I think a lot of the problem therein lies. What one cultural funds acceptable, one does not. Hence, the intent is lost and confusion, anger and hateful responses ensue. I'm glad you decided to post, at least it's important to someone else too.

Yea, I don't feel that color matter one iota, as we can all trace our genes back to the same origin, basically. We are just human and that's it. These problems arise from the amount of pigmentation in ones skin. HOW F'N SILLY IS THAT?

[Redeagl]

I am very very very sorry for the racist harrasment you had to deal with MSJ
In my life I have never encountered racism until I was a regular in the Internet.I have encountered Brown,Black,white,ginger and even a few Asian people and never did I saw any racism. Simply the idea of judging people based on their skin color is too stupid and inane for me to understand and still it is.Also I have to agree about the people getting easily offended thing ( no I don't mean you Hiro) the whole " black lives matter " movement for example is shockingly racist. Black lives??! WTF. All I know is you don't call someone black or white unless you are describing them. Does skin color really matter in anything? How can someone be that inane? Understanding how can someone judge another from their skin color is beyond my level of intelligence.Racism stops when people stop saying black and white people. This is it. Again I am sorry MSJ for what happened to you, I really am.

Well thanks, Redeagl, and don't feel sorry. I dont, it's shaped me into the human I am. I call my sister's black all the time, and along with all my black friends. I can see where it can be construed as racist, where I live it's normal and no offense is taken. See, that's where I think a lot of the problem therein lies. What one cultural funds acceptable, one does not. Hence, the intent is lost and confusion, anger and hateful responses ensue. I'm glad you decided to post, at least it's important to someone else too.

Yea, I don't feel that color matter one iota, as we can all trace our genes back to the same origin, basically. We are just human and that's it. These problems arise from the amount of pigmentation in ones skin. HOW F'N SILLY IS THAT?

As long as your sister and friends accepts the joking then there is no harm in it.Skin color is so stupid that in fact I am still stunned that people actually give it such importance.Also again black or white isn't a race it is just a color for a race which is humanity so the word "racism" is really misplaced from my point of view.

[MSJ]

As long as your sister and friends accepts the joking then there is no harm in it.Skin color is so stupid that in fact I am still stunned that people actually give it such importance.Also again black or white isn't a race it is just a color for a race which is humanity so the word "racism" is really misplaced from my point of view.

Well, here in America alot, not all, African -Americans take a certain type of pride in being called black. I think it defines them in a way, their struggle in this country. So, not so much a joke, just what we call one another. Im the white-boy in my family and to a majority of my friends (black). It all goes back to different cultural and the meaning attached to those words. I understand you completely Redeagl, it's senseless and pointless way to describe someone.

[Redeagl]

As long as your sister and friends accepts the joking then there is no harm in it.Skin color is so stupid that in fact I am still stunned that people actually give it such importance.Also again black or white isn't a race it is just a color for a race which is humanity so the word "racism" is really misplaced from my point of view.

Well, here in America alot, not all, African -Americans take a certain type of pride in being called black. I think it defines them in a way, their struggle in this country. So, not so much a joke, just what we call one another. Im the white-boy in my family and to a majority of my friends (black). It all goes back to different cultural and the meaning attached to those words. I understand you completely Redeagl, it's senseless and pointless way to describe someone.

What really makes me awestruck is that there are actual people in America who think " I am white then I am completely awesome. You are black then you are a piece of shit." which in turn made black people hate the term. Neither are right. Why should you hate the shape you were born with?  but the other ideology however is far beyond my understanding so I can't comment on it.Black or white I don't really care and neither should anyone.Like you said we are all from the same race.

[MSJ]

As long as your sister and friends accepts the joking then there is no harm in it.Skin color is so stupid that in fact I am still stunned that people actually give it such importance.Also again black or white isn't a race it is just a color for a race which is humanity so the word "racism" is really misplaced from my point of view.

Well, here in America alot, not all, African -Americans take a certain type of pride in being called black. I think it defines them in a way, their struggle in this country. So, not so much a joke, just what we call one another. Im the white-boy in my family and to a majority of my friends (black). It all goes back to different cultural and the meaning attached to those words. I understand you completely Redeagl, it's senseless and pointless way to describe someone.

What really makes me awestruck is that there are actual people in America who think " I am white then I am completely awesome. You are black then you are a piece of shit." which in turn made black people hate the term. Neither are right. Why should you hate the shape you were born with?  but the other ideology however is far beyond my understanding so I can't comment on it.Black or white I don't really care and neither should anyone.Like you said we are all from the same race.

That is America in a nutshell. A country divided by color. I've heard whites say to blacks, "you just need to get over slavery, you were never a slave.". I mean, come on, it is a hardly something to just get over. Though, I do feel at some point we all need to move from the subject of race and work together. Now, don't get me wrong, its a small minority, both black and white that keep this going on and on. It is certainly not the majority of Americans that even see it as a issue and have put it behind them. Very complicated situation Redeagl, and I think you would have to live here and experience to really see how it effects our country. Its hard to even explain to people outside of the U.S.. Is like to put into simple terms, I don't think that can be done.

[H]

Well, here in America alot, not all, African -Americans take a certain type of pride in being called black. I think it defines them in a way, their struggle in this country. So, not so much a joke, just what we call one another. Im the white-boy in my family and to a majority of my friends (black). It all goes back to different cultural and the meaning attached to those words. I understand you completely Redeagl, it's senseless and pointless way to describe someone.

The issue, in part, is how we (and I say we, as in human beings) construct our "identity" whether it's via nationalist, cultural, or religious grounds.  Sure, here in the United States we most certainly identify as "Americans" but in large this means very little, only as it is a label to designate the us-ness of us and the other-ness of other countries.  As a element of cohesiveness, it is meaningless.  That goes right to a major part of all of this, is the way in which we construct in-groups and out-groups.  It also speaks directly to the cultural idea that there is only one possible right way to live.

When you put such things together, you find what we have, people banding together to praise their sameness and vilify anyone different.  It literally does not matter if the perceived differences even exist, let alone are actually meaningful.  Indeed, this is a part of what Diurnal speaks to, the way family is a natural in-group, so there naturally arises a sort of us-against-the-world mentality.  Taken at face-value, this is perfectly fine, even a good thing.  The problem, like nearly everything in life, is that it is a matter of degrees.

Is it good to celebrate shared cultural values?  Of course.  Is it good to help your family?  Sure.  But the issue comes when it is taken to it's worst possible extreme, that is, to celebrate your cultural values at the expense of others.  That goes into the idea that just because you disagree with something, means no one should even be allowed to do it/say it/be it.  That is the real issue.  No one would care if you didn't like whatever, didn't believe in whatever, choose not to do whatever.  It's when you say, I don't like X so no one should be able to do X.

To reel myself in a bit, because I could droll on and on, but there is even more to it.  It doesn't just come down to cultural values, or perceived identity either.  The idea that one can psychologically elevate one's self by denigrating others is pretty rampant.  Identity forged from the negative, the "not me" and "not us" that we believe segregates us.  Why do this?  Because there is a perceived value in segregation, right back to the in-groups versus the out-groups.  It's "us" versus "them" in competition for whatever we imagine we are.  We imagine we have to "protect our own" and extend this out to those we see as "same" and, of course, at the expense of those we imagine are "different."

I'm babbling at this point though.

[MSJ]

Great points, H. As alwaays, my question is how do break the chains of this mindset of us vs them?

[Hiro]

Great points, H. As alwaays, my question is how do break the chains of this mindset of us vs them?

MSJ, sorry, I didn't see this thread before. I have just posted a reply in the 'What are you watching' thread, was busy these past few days. I'll read this thread and respond as well. Regards.

[MSJ]

Great points, H. As alwaays, my question is how do break the chains of this mindset of us vs them?

MSJ, sorry, I didn't see this thread before. I have just posted a reply in the 'What are you watching' thread, was busy these past few days. I'll read this thread and respond as well. Regards.

Glad you seen the thread, as I am very interested in your thoughts. To go back to what you said in the other thread, It hit the nail on the the head as to why I liked Wilshire's statement. I see people that get offended over perceived slights at them or what they feel to be a negative comment. Now, why I said the internet is the most offended space on Earth, is because they care not, or do not want to know the reason behind you said that offended them. There is no effort to understand where one is coming from. Its just "that MSJ made a racist, sexist remark and therefore he is a bigot and that's how I will feel about him" (just an example, though I've had it happen).

I have a problem of saying what comes to mind, I'm not very "politically correct" you might say. So some things I've said on the internet have came off way, way wrong before. But, there was never an attempt to understand why I made the comment or where I might be coming from. And, trust me, there are those on the internet that don't care, they just like to place a label on you and move on. That's where my comment comes from, "The internet is the most offended space in the World.".

I really have just started thinking on all these issues here recently, since this election has split our country in two. Trump supporters are automatically labeled as redneck, racist SON's and Hillary supporters, freeloaders and gun grabbers. No one asks the questions as to why they want to vote one way or another. Another thing that has got me interested in these issues further, is the racial tension in America at the moment. In certain areas of the US, it's at a boiling point. I have life long friends (African-american) that do not want to hear any opinions on what they perceive as slights or what they think is ok?

Take the issue of NFL players kneeling during the National Anthem. One of my friends posted a meme of Kaepernick kneeling and was praising it. I asked, "So you even know who he is disrespecting and what our NA stands for?". He response that the NA was hundreds of years old and held no true meaning. He was glad he was doing it as a way to protest. I responded by saying, "No, the National Anthem is our way of paying respect to the fallen soldiers of countless wars, who gave the ultimate sacrifice to defend your rights and your freedom. The only people being disrespected is the thousands of fallen soldiers. Mind you, that includes African-American soldiers who fought and died in those same wars.". His response? "Lol". America is a nation divided right now my friends, and I feel it is close to reaching boiling point.

[Alia]

So, let me say something about my background now. I'm Polish and white, like most of people in Poland. But I am also a woman, a socialist liberal and a nerd - which at the moment means that I am outside the official discourse of our government and state-owned media. Since our last election (a year ago) everything is becoming more nationalistic, isolationistic and xenophobic. And, oh, they wanted to ban abortion in any circumstances (currently it's allowed only if pregnancy is dangerous for the woman's life, the embryo is unable to live or heavily disfigured or if the pregnancy is the result of crime). Anyway, this discourse promotes the skinhead, neo-nazi types as modern Polish patriots. The result is racist attacks, mostly on Arabs (you know, the whole islamic threat and all that), but recently a Polish professor of history was beaten on the tram because he was talking in German to his colleague, a German professor of history.
Our Independence Day is coming. 11 November, the Armistice Day. And you know what - we warn our non-Polish friends to better stay at homes on that day (fortunately, it's a holiday, so they do not have to go to work or school) or they might get beaten by our brave young Polish patriots.
And you know what? I love my country and I hate it at the same time. I don't want to leave, but I'm so afraid it will get worse and worse. I've survived the communist regime, early 21st century seemed to be all bright and promising, membership in NATO and EU, open borders, open minds... and now it's all falling apart.
So yes, I am offended. I am offended by racist jokes and comments, I am offended by anti-gay rhetorics, I am offended by our women-hating government. I never thought I would go marching in the streets, and yet during this year I did it several times. It won't change anything but at least I can see that I'm not alone.

[Hiro]

I am very very very sorry for the racist harrasment you had to deal with MSJ
In my life I have never encountered racism until I was a regular in the Internet.I have encountered Brown,Black,white,ginger and even a few Asian people and never did I saw any racism. Simply the idea of judging people based on their skin color is too stupid and inane for me to understand and still it is.Also I have to agree about the people getting easily offended thing ( no I don't mean you Hiro) the whole " black lives matter " movement for example is shockingly racist. Black lives??! WTF. All I know is you don't call someone black or white unless you are describing them. Does skin color really matter in anything? How can someone be that inane? Understanding how can someone judge another from their skin color is beyond my level of intelligence.Racism stops when people stop saying black and white people. This is it. Again I am sorry MSJ for what happened to you, I really am.

You do realize, - if you have taken the time to read my posts -, that I was not offended in the first place, right? Apparently just using the word 'racist' was enough for people to think I was, funny how that works, I mean: who is actually feeling offended? I do not feel the need to reiterate my points again. See the other thread.

However, just because you feel that skin color doesn't matter, does not mean that there is no racism in society at large. And actually, your description of Black Lives matter as being "shockingly racist" is rather ignorant and insensitive. You seriously haven't wondered why such a movement felt the need to raise their voice?

[Redeagl]

I am very very very sorry for the racist harrasment you had to deal with MSJ
In my life I have never encountered racism until I was a regular in the Internet.I have encountered Brown,Black,white,ginger and even a few Asian people and never did I saw any racism. Simply the idea of judging people based on their skin color is too stupid and inane for me to understand and still it is.Also I have to agree about the people getting easily offended thing ( no I don't mean you Hiro) the whole " black lives matter " movement for example is shockingly racist. Black lives??! WTF. All I know is you don't call someone black or white unless you are describing them. Does skin color really matter in anything? How can someone be that inane? Understanding how can someone judge another from their skin color is beyond my level of intelligence.Racism stops when people stop saying black and white people. This is it. Again I am sorry MSJ for what happened to you, I really am.

You do realize, - if you have taken the time to read my posts -, that I was not offended in the first place, right? Apparently just using the word 'racist' was enough for people to think I was, funny how that works, I mean: who is actually feeling offended? I do not feel the need to reiterate my points again. See the other thread.

However, just because you feel that skin color doesn't matter, does not mean that there is no racism in society at large. And actually, your description of Black Lives matter as being "shockingly racist" is rather ignorant and insensitive. You seriously haven't wondered why such a movement felt the need to raise their voice?

First of all I think that you should know something about me. I am not American, I am Egyptian.Second I don't think you have read my post, "Also I have to agree about the people getting easily offended thing ( NO I DON'T MEAN YOU HIRO) " you probably have missed this last bit 
Last of all I know about the American cops shooting black people thing, when that happens you protest against cops shooting people. Aren't black people normal people or what??  you see I am a Muslim too and right now Muslims ( I know that Islam is not a race but I don't know a better word) are getting racism from most people in Europe and America alike. Do you see me screaming RACISM every single second? If so then Bakker's books are racist. The Fanim never won a battle in the Prince Of Nothing trilogy. Self wallowing for no reason is stupid.That's it for now.