The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The White-Luck Warrior => Topic started by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 07:37:58 pm
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So the excerpt from TUC and subsequent discussion on Westeros has me thinking about personal agency and human assumptions regarding it. It's something that the excerpt and the responses to it suggest Bakker is going to explore.
For now, I'll funnel this into the idea that we've misled ourselves concerning the nature of the Synthese.
Perhaps, it is but one name for many objects. After all, the bird is what was needed to skulk, to intrigue, to spy. It was an Avatar, a conduit for enough of Aurang's sorcery to accomplish what was needed.
How likely is a specialized Battle Synthese as well :D?
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Perhaps, like I've mentioned elsewhere, the soul splitting while maintaining 'selfness' could be employed to make choruses of shrieking magi controlled by one intellect/soul but with the intensity amplification of the many mouths utter the cants. Kinda falls in line with battle synthese, an army of possessed 'things' whos death was largely irreverent as long as the one controlling the masses remains alive to make new avatars. Also, what about the possession, who says it can only be done to one person at a time like that TTT scene. Regardless, even if only one person could be possessed at a time, such a think could slowly destroy an army, if people kept getting possessed and killing their friends.
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Kinda falls in line with battle synthese, an army of possessed 'things' whos death was largely irreverent as long as the one controlling the masses remains alive to make new avatars.
ooh a battle synthese!
Here's what I imagine,
Priority one is protection Make a big metal sarcophagus 'core' made of mithril or steel or nimil or whatever.
Embed a bunch of chorae in it to make it immune to magic.
Put a kickass technology to give it locomotive force, so that it can fly.
Maybe if it flies via some harrier jet type technology the battle synthese's movement would kick up an enormous whirl of wind that would be useful in battle as well.
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haha and power the whole thing with some kind of quasi-nuclear reactor
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Oh you guys. I was so thinking Iron Man meets Second Apocalypse :P.
Are you really reducing the awesome possibilities of a unique No-God entity to Sheonanra's Avatar?
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haha no just having a bit of fun.
though this makes me think that there is much more the consult could have to throw at the great ordeal. they will be sorely pressed to make it to the ship.
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Hmmm...Not sure if it's going down this route, but...
http://wanderling.tripod.com/ally.html
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I don’t get who the character that raped Esmi was.
It can’t be some random person Aurang possessed, because there was "black seed".
The only option i can see, is Aurang can inhabit his skin spys?
(or was that obvious from the start, and I’m being dumb?)
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For my money, it was a Glamour cast by Aurang the Bird Synthese - a Glamour that extends to corporeal form:
"He was tall, even statuesque, wearing a coal black coat over a silvered brigandine and a black tunic of crushed damask" (TDTCB, p276).
On Westeros, we entertained theories extending from this to Aurang on a Skin-Spy's shoulder to Aurang the Inchoroi being in Sumna.
However, no one ever brings up the other instance, pre-Esmenet's compulsion:
"'Walking between Wards is easy," a voice hummed, 'when their author practises other arcana.'
She awoke suddenly, if not completely, and through blinking eyes watched yet another man walk to the side of her bed... He was tall, dressed in a black cloak over a silvered brigandine. With relief she realized he was quite handsome. There was compensation of a different sort in-
His shadow had hooked wings" (TTT, p301).
My bet is still this third class of sorcery providing the explanation - our ignorance of Cants, Wards, & Glamours.
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There was some sort of flash when he* left, as well. And IIRC a flutter of wings. It may indeed be a solid glamour.
Though how does a bird carry that much seman? lol!
* Assuming the last two inchies were "he's" to begin with. But that's another thread...
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I was always confused by the dark figure that coupled w/ Esmenet, but I suspect the glamour is the answer now. We know almost for certain that Aurang uses glamours as Akka told Kellhus to expect as much.
lol @ battle synthese.
Do we know if the bird synthese bares the mark? I don't recall. It would be really interesting if it didn't because that would be like a cloaking device for a sorcerer. You can fly around and use cants without being revealed by your mark. Hmmm...
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"He saw nothing of Kellhus, though he spied something, a point of fluttering black, hanging over the distant network of streets and alleyways that rose up into the haze. He blinked, frowning... Was that the Mark he sensed?
A sorcerous bird?" (TTT, p257)
EDIT: Clarifying, Achamian's perspective before Kellhus gives a speech at old Herod... I mean, Shikol's Palace.
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I guess that maybe lends some credence to the 'It wasn't Moe that got stabbed, it was just a hologram' idea.
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Also from the either TDTCB or WP (I can't remember which), the synthese is talking to the Sarcellus-Skin-Spy who says something like 'You shouldn't be here, someone will see your mark, there are sorcerers around'
to which the synthese replies "One mark does not stand out among many"
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"One bruise does not show among many." There was a flutter of wings and a dry click as a crow alighted on the table. A bald human head rolled on its neck, as though working out kinks. "Any who sense me," the palm-sized face explained, "will dismiss my mark. The Scarlet Schoolmen are everywhere" (TDTCB, p353).
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I put down several possibilities about the visitor that interro-raped Esement in the reread section.
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There is a possible inconsistency here, in that Esmenet perceives the Consult to be man sized but later he vanishes through the window and she hears wings. A couple options:
1. Esmenet is seeing a glamour of the horrible Inchoroi form seen later in TWP, WLW and False Sun, so she sees a man rather than an outerspace rape demon. Pretty fucking huge window to allow something 12 feet tall to escape it.
2. A skin spy is connected to the synthese seen in the Inrau chapter. The synthese has taken over the skin spy to interrogate Esmenet. however I don't think skin spies leave black seed, though the next couple chapters when Esmenet connects to TTCSarcellus should clarify whether or not their seed is black. When the interrogator leaves, the Skin spy jumps out of the window and the synthese flies off.
3. Esmenet is interrogated by another kind of synthese not seen since this event.
4. Esmenet is interrogated because the synthese took control of a random dude or Consult Conspirator human, just like Esmenet is taken control of by the synthese in TTT when they try to kill Kellhus. The seed is black cuz magic.
5. Authorial inconsistency and the Inchoroi form was not yet fully fleshed out, heh. This is perhaps the most likely as the text says, “He was standing above her, his godlike frame shining in the glow of the remaining candle,” at the end of the interro-rape. Interesting that this invocation of godlike frame comes so soon on the heels of Conphas thinking of himself as a God. Also, Frames are really important to Bakker, so godlike Frame is a very loaded phrase regardless of whether or not this visitor is consistent with later portrayals of the Inchoroi, and the phrase could indicate the presence of glamour. And considering the invocation of this chapter names the Inchoroi as the race of lovers and the first significant event of the chapter is Esmenet being completely overwhelmed and in her words ‘mastered’ by the stranger’s ability as a lover, I think it is clear we’re to take this iteration of the Inchoroi as distinct from the Skin Spies and Synthese we have already seen.
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You Sir, have the quote for everything. Im impressed.
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Lol, my life has developed a keen memory for fiction, nothing more. When I actually do readings for schools (as opposed to letting my non-academic readings of the same subject matter carry me through) it works too. Something about recognizing segments within contexts, I've never really thought about it much.
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Hmm, crazy thought here.
What if, Inchoroi “black seed” has some biological properties we don’t know about?
Having the effect of making Esmi’s womb stronger.
And enabling her to bear Kellhus offspring?
After all, we know all Kellhus concubines failed to produce children, and many died in the attempt.
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Hmm, crazy thought here.
What if, Inchoroi “black seed” has some biological properties we don’t know about?
Having the effect of making Esmi’s womb stronger.
And enabling her to bear Kellhus offspring?
After all, we know all Kellhus concubines failed to produce children, and many died in the attempt.
I have wondered about this too. Did it impact Inralatus or Kelmomas somehow?
Did Esmi ever tell Kellhus about the Aurang incident whatever it was?
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Do skin-spys have the black seed? Because the original Serwa was 'interogated' several times, and she would be absent minded enough not to notice.
I ask because then, if the above was true for Esmi and her children, then Moe would be affected by this.
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Maybe Wilshire.
But would skin spy and Inchoroi seed be the same?
If there is any truth to this, i somehow doubt it extends to skin spys and sranc.
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Sranc have black seed I believe, something of this may have even been mentioned in the excerpt from chapter 1 of TUC, which is why I thought that skin-spys might.
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nice. very x-files, "black oil" spreading alien DNA.
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x-files ... how about the more recent Prometheus.
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I have always wondered how Esmenet's womb might be changed by the encounters with *Aurang*... Arguably, during her possession in TTT, she is already pregnant with Kayutas.
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Hmmm thats a close timeline, probably too close to call definitively. The only thing is, Kayutas seems relatively normal, or at least well adjusted when compared to some of his other siblings. Poor Esmi has been through so much.
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If you go back to the instances of her perspective after her possession in TTT, she experiences some of Aurang's memories, though she never really explores them much - Esmenet suppresses emotions, after all.
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I doubt Aurang did anything to make her pregnant (I'd suspect the opposite effort, if anything). They hate pregnancy - possibly with whatever fragmentary compassion they have left (as in, making more babies who a damned to eternal torture?)
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I doubt Aurang did anything to make her pregnant (I'd suspect the opposite effort, if anything). They hate pregnancy - possibly with whatever fragmentary compassion they have left (as in, making more babies who a damned to eternal torture?)
I agree, I would think that they would seal the womb so to speak.
But out of compassion? Thats an interesting theory.
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We segued quite a bit, prompting a couple Esmenet threads.
Returning to topic:
Does the mechanism of Synthese use bear a particular similarity to the No-God's ensoulling of the Weapon Races?
What kind of other Synthese might the Mangaecca wield, other than the Spying Bird? Battle-Bots? Shauriatas' floating Ten-Piece?
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Does the mechanism of Synthese use bear a particular similarity to the No-God's ensoulling of the Weapon Races?
I don't think so. The synthase seem to be some kind of vessel to hold Shae's soul. This may somehow be related to the No-God, perhaps it was where they got the idea or something. Trapping souls is important. But as far as ensoulling the weapon races? Not really sure what you mean by that, but the No-God was able to project his thoughts through the sranc and such, not really bounce his soul around. It seems distinctly different.
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[That was a riff off some earlier speculation in the thread, btw.]
The Weapon Races (sans Wracu) behave as direct extensions of the No-God's will?
More like Cants of Compulsion, but hey, I was resurrecting a thread.
Synthese: Vessels to hold Souls... not bad.
Synthese is a vessel to hold Aurang's soul* - we've not met Shaeonanra/Shauriatas outside of False Sun or Ch. 1 excerpt.
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Oh yeah thats right. My mistake. Though the Inchi's do have their own wings... but I guess that is a bit more conspicuous
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1. Bird Synthese (PON)
2. Ironman Synthese (Speculation)
3. Ten-Piece Sigil (Synthese?) (Ch. 1 Excerpt)
4. Tekne Monster Syntheses (Speculation)
5.
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5. Whatever synthese Kellhus will use! (speculation)
Perhaps TUC will open with the capture of a bashrag that is refitted to bear the soul of the Aspect-Emperor.
Maybe Serwa produced a synthese that simply looks exactly like herself and is sending it to Ishterebinth.
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Hmm... unless Kellhus can divide his attention a la No-God, I see no reason why he'd need a Synthese... skin-spy synthese :o?
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Hmm... unless Kellhus can divide his attention a la No-God, I see no reason why he'd need a Synthese... skin-spy synthese :o?
I don't know how synthese work, but if your synthese can withstand any amount of violence without it actually hurting your own soul/body, then Kellhus could use these things with abandon, hoping into a new one whenever the old one wears out. It would allow him to lead his troops into battle and stay with rear command and if he can handle multiple synthese, just be all over the fucking place.
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Yeah, and No-God analogies abound. But Synthese mute the true power?
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Yeah, and No-God analogies abound. But Synthese mute the true power?
That's awesome, I didn't inference that until you said so! So to the No-God, every Sranc is just another synthese. Must have a pretty bad ass intellect...
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i was wondering if Meppa is really nothing more than a synthese for Moenghus? a retooled skin spy shell would work nice.
also, Kellhus might be trying to work a loophole. WLW travels north and plunges sword into Kellhus' body. surprise! it's a skin-spy/synthese! Kellhus is back in the palace (Kelmomas finds him, later eats him). or maybe Kellhus is Ishual. maybe Kellhus is just about to strike down Mog when he clutches his chest because the WLW just stabbed his real body wherever that is
overall, i'm just curious about the idea that a dunyain could make a synthese that just looks like a normal person