The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The White-Luck Warrior => Topic started by: Camel on December 25, 2013, 05:48:58 pm
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So, as we know from both books and interviews of RSB his universe has objective morality. Mimara can even see morality of things and people. And RSB said that whole religions can be false and entire nations will be damned because of that in Earwa. Now the thing that bothers me is what nations are unlucky to literally go to hell because they chose wrong religion and prophet. Inrithism? Fanim? Zaudunyani? Oh and mages and nonmen are damned anyway.
I guess it's safe to say the Zaudunyani are damned because they follow the wrong prophet, Mimara even notes that circumfix is a false symbol. So who else? We don't see Kellhus under the Judging Eye but I assume he's damned thanks to his Mark and numerous sins. On the other hand, Mimara saw a literal halo above her head. Then suffering can bring salvation?
P.S. Please keep the discussion of real religions out of this thread.
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Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Camel.
To break down what I can do for you.
I agree with you concerning the 'objective morality,' however, you'll find that not everyone here can agree that it means the same thing we understand it to mean.
Mimara may or may not see the 'objective morality' that Bakker is referring to.
We don't know that Kellhus is a False Prophet; I think we impose that upon the narrative because Kellhus doesn't seem to exhibit what are, ultimately, probably culturally projected (possibly global-culture) "prophet-like qualities" (though I am inclined to believe Mimara's has access to a (possibly) most omniscient perspective of the narrative world, so far, but we just don't know, again, the validity of her perspective). We also haven't seen Kellhus through the eyes of the Few in TAE series yet... perhaps, Kellhus has a mark like the Cishaurim or Titirga, whom may or may not be Damned as other sorcerers seem to be (Titirga from The False Sun (http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/stories/the-false-sun/) short story on Bakker blog - apparently, major spoilers for The Unholy Consult because it offers a pre-apocalypse Consult perspective, which is also probably imminent in TUC).
Bakker has said that innocence is key to redemption in Earwa (suffering has also been mentioned, I think). But, again, Mimara's Holiness is self-referential; it's an operational definition. We just don't know whose judgement Mimara really see.
Cheers.
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i think the whole damnation thing is a red herring that all'y'all have inexplicably chased for eight years across at least three boards now.
therefore, logicians are damned.
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Lol +1, solo.
I've only pursued it in the past year, really, and only to reign in some perspectives. I don't even think I care about the Damnation aspect of the series.
However, I am Damned for pursuing logic among other cognitive tools.
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But, again, Mimara's Holiness is self-referential; it's an operational definition. We just don't know whose judgement Mimara really see.
If we take seriously the idea that the Judging Eye is the Eye of the Unborn, then she is seeing herself from the PoV of her own unborn (and presumably therefore entirely and eternally innocent) child in that scene. But should a child's view of his/her own mother as 'holy' really be taken as (if you'll pardon the term) Gospel? Maybe any woman with the JE would see herself the way Mimara did, no matter the true state of her own soul? Even if the JE is infallibly accurate when turned outwards, that doesn't imply it is so when turned back on itself.
After all, the Inchoroi seem to believe that absolutely everybody is damned.
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Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Camel.
Thank you! I was lurking here for some time and finally decided to join a discussion.
Mimara may or may not see the 'objective morality' that Bakker is referring to.
I think we can safely assume that she sees the 'objective morality' - Gallian was shocked and didn't dispute anything when Mimara mentioned a "crimson butterfly", she also saw that Akka is damned and we know from Shauriatas that sorcerers indeed are doomed to go to hell, she also somehow killed the shade of Gin'yursis.
We don't know that Kellhus is a False Prophet; I think we impose that upon the narrative because Kellhus doesn't seem to exhibit what are, ultimately, probably culturally projected (possibly global-culture) "prophet-like qualities" (though I am inclined to believe Mimara's has access to a (possibly) most omniscient perspective of the narrative world, so far, but we just don't know, again, the validity of her perspective). We also haven't seen Kellhus through the eyes of the Few in TAE series yet... perhaps, Kellhus has a mark like the Cishaurim or Titirga, whom may or may not be Damned as other sorcerers seem to be (Titirga from The False Sun (http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/stories/the-false-sun/) short story on Bakker blog - apparently, major spoilers for The Unholy Consult because it offers a pre-apocalypse Consult perspective, which is also probably imminent in TUC).
Yeah, Bakker didn't show Kellhus under the Judging Eye yet. Sometimes silence speaks more than words, as I think it is in this case. Although we saw Kellhus' Mark in the first trilogy and it was normal one, not something that Titirga had.
Bakker has said that innocence is key to redemption in Earwa (suffering has also been mentioned, I think).
I see.
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"The Judging Eye is the eye of the Unborn... The eye that watches from the God's own vantage."
I like the tie-in you've made between innocence and the child (Unborn of the Judging Eye would seem particularly sinless). However, Achamian's quote seems to point to "the God's" judgement, from his perspective most culturally likely to be Inri Sejenus' God of Gods. And really I don't think those need be mutually exclusive.
I'll cast some doubt with the worst of them but I don't really see reason to doubt a mundane reflection of sight (the water she uses as mirror).
Looking back on her life, murdering her pimps (this is fucking stretch of mind) is basically the only thing I could see as sin. Mimara was sold into slavery before she had any real agency of her own; her entire life might be absolved by that fact... Like Serwe.
On Earwan "true-prophet criteria:" I think healing is an absolute must. If the wielding of metaphysic by humans is all based on the perversion of the God's Song or Dream (Tolkien or Erikson - though, I think Erikson is too contemporary of Bakker's Earwan creation to be an influence on something like that), then those who cannot create obviously cannot be representing any truly omniscient God (if such a thing exists, and redemption, salvation, absolution, imply this in Earwa). Prophets and/or Shaman must have the ability to create. I've been waiting for sorcerous acts of creation since TDTCB and thaumaturgical acts of creation since TJE. Sorcerers destroy. False Prophets do nothing (with their supposed thaumaturgy, anyways - Kellhus is going to muck things up with sorcery); this was always my greatest (and really only) doubt of Kellhus as a True Prophet. He might know enough to commune with the Gods but they aren't backing him...
Thank you! I was lurking here for some time and finally decided to join a discussion.
An excellent choice ;).
I think we can safely assume that she sees the 'objective morality' - Gallian was shocked and didn't dispute anything when Mimara mentioned a "crimson butterfly", she also saw that Akka is damned and we know from Shauriatas that sorcerers indeed are doomed to go to hell, she also somehow killed the shade of Gin'yursis.
I'm with you. I just like to consider all the options fully; do some work for the inevitable haters.
Yeah, Bakker didn't show Kellhus under the Judging Eye yet. Sometimes silence speaks more than words, as I think it is in this case.
Absolutely. I'd love if Achamian just dragged Mimara to the armies of the Great Ordeal and demanded that she declare Kellhus false... and then Mimara can lie and declare him true ;). Imagination's running wild.
Although we saw Kellhus' Mark in the first trilogy and it was normal one, not something that Titirga had.
Mark is proportionate to skill, friend. Kellhus in TTT still needed Achamian to protect him. Twenty years later. Kellhus either looks Quya, Titirga, or something different... certainly not a normal human sorcerer.
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After all, the Inchoroi seem to believe that absolutely everybody is damned.
Huh, do you have a quote?
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A rasp like the screams of faraway children tangled in the wind. Inchoroi laughter. “You are already damned. All of you are already damned.“
“So say you.”
A deep chested rumble. Popping mucous. “So says the Inverse Fire.”
EDIT: Though, to your point, Duskweaver, I'm not sure the Inchoroi isn't specifically referring to the sorcerers and Quya that were the context of the conversation. There's ambiguity.
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Prophets and/or Shaman must have the ability to create.
Is it a must have ability? Imo a connection to god(gods) must be a sign of the true prophet, like something Sorweel has.
Absolutely. I'd love if Achamian just dragged Mimara to the armies of the Great Ordeal and demanded that she declare Kellhus false... and then Mimara can lie and declare him true ;). Imagination's running wild.
It would be fitting for Mimara's character lol.
Mark is proportionate to skill, friend. Kellhus in TTT still needed Achamian to protect him. Twenty years later. Kellhus either looks Quya, Titirga, or something different... certainly not a normal human sorcerer.
I think Titirga's Mark was different not because of his magic potential. Then Nil'giccas as probably the strongest sorcerer in history should have the same mark, but it was the identical to others even it was very deep. Kellhus also learned Daimos with the Scarlet Spires, and that is the shortest path to hell. Cyphrang was shouting to Iyokus that his soul now belongs to them.
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Is it a must have ability? Imo a connection to god(gods) must be a sign of the true prophet, like something Sorweel has.
For me, healing/creation are must-haves for Earwan Prophets. That's only supported by Inri Sejenus healing the blinded Horomon, Xinemus then being the obvious contention against Kellhus' status, if true.
It would be fitting for Mimara's character lol.
I think so too.
I think Titirga's Mark was different not because of his magic potential. Then Nil'giccas as probably the strongest sorcerer in history should have the same mark, but it was the identical to others even it was very deep.
Titirga Mithalara, they called him–the Giver of Mercy!–ironic renown for his ruthless extermination of his foes. He was certainly the most powerful Insinger ever born. And if what Cet’ingira said was true, the most powerful, period. No living Quya had the purity of his Recitations. Even his Stain was different, somehow muted, as if he could cut the Inward without scarring it. Even now, simply regarding him, his distinction literally glared from his image, a strange, sideways rinsing of the Stain.
The vital difference. The threat.
Kellhus also learned Daimos with the Scarlet Spires, and that is the shortest path to hell. Cyphrang was shouting to Iyokus that his soul now belongs to them.
We've kicked around a theory here and on Westeros that the Ciphrang hanging from Kellhus' hip are, in fact, the two not destroyed by Chorae in PON (I forget if the exact count is right or if we've figured out exactly how it works but the thinking is that only Chorae actually end a Ciphrang, that a sorcerous defeat simply sends them back to the Outside). Perspectives even swear that the Ciphrang heads react sometimes (blinks and mouths moving) so maybe Kellhus has defeated those two in another way trapping them in the World and rendering their influence Outside useless? But still Iyokus' Gift from Kellhus is killing those who would keepeth his soul for eternity.
In a sense, Kellhus has made a convincing argument for the Scarlet Spires to use the Daimos in a Schoolwide Concert sans fear of that particular Damned condemnation.
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Huh, do you have a quote?
Madness already provided the quote, but here is the link (http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/stories/the-false-sun/).
It's more ambiguous that I recalled, but it still reads to me like "all of you" means "all you ensoulled beings on this world" rather than "all you sorcerers".
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It could be. Lol, I think we're trailing from the justifications for prophets and Damnation but it could easily be as you write. I just think that the more profound notation of the interaction is the Inchoroi declaring Earwa's Ground special (which you and I have tried to distinguish on a few occasions now). We know people are Damned. I want to understand the mechanisms involved in how that Damnation plays out in Earwan reality.
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I've laughed pretty hard at many of solo's posts over the years, but that one was one of the best. I felt like Eleazaras cackling with grief when it was starting to set in that he was quite damned after all.
Yeah, we can't say that Nil'giccas, even if he was a great character is the greatest sorcerer. Here's what I think the heirarchy likely is....wait...just got started and realized I should go back to the sorcery thread to do this rather than here. So I have contributed quite nothing with this post!
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You read it, Trisk :).
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I'm trying to think about this and I have a few questions that I can't remember the answers to.
Are we given a depiction of Kellhus' mark? I feel like I would remember it if we were.
Did Fain perform acts of healing and creation?
I want to believe that the Cish can perform something like constructive magic. We never see what the day to day bearing of the water looks like we only see them spill the water. Spilling the water is obviously destructive but it is no way their prime function. While they are very powerful they are not intended to be soldiers. They bear meaning. Sorcery is involved. There could be something there.
Also, I would posit that Kellhus' haloed hands and precognition are in the family of divine thaumaturgy and not sorcery.
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Startled, Achamian glanced back to the stair, saw Kellhus descend to the first landing ... It was strange - even terrifying - to sense the Mark on him as well. It dirtied him somehow, even as it augured an unthinkable future.
We don't know if Fane performed acts of healing or creation, so all is fair nerdaneling there.
As for Kellhus' halos and precognition:
Callan made a good catch in another thread when I quoted Mimara seeing herself with the Judging Eye; her head halo is silver. And Kellhus' probability trance gives a decent account of why he can summaries what will happen but... I think, you are referring to "the Whore will be kind," and I definitely think this could be a moment of thaumaturgy (i.e. the God, the Gods, or Fate speaking through Kellhus - I'd compare it to those moments where characters think or say things that are somehow involuntarily said or out of context for their pattern of thought; I can think of a handful spread across the series: Inrau, Achamian, Sorweel).
However, I personally don't think Kellhus is divinely ordained (I'm on the fence but I'm clinging to nerdanels years old). A Dunyain beset by emotions, or self-preservation, maybe...
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If the depth of the mark relates to strength, then how could Zioz be defeated by Akka?
I'm fairly confident that the ciphrang bear the deepest mark of all, and despite the fact that they seem to use analogies, their application of sorcery appears similar to the psukhe (and in turn, tears it apart).
(TTT ch15 pg 325 US hardcover)
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Was Zioz straight up defeated by Achamian? This was something I was never clear on myself. Don't have the book (or my Kindle) at hand, but isn't the resolution to that conflict really vague?
Regardless, we know that he at least managed to overpower Ankaryotis in TWP with sheer magical strength. Though the mechanics of "defeating a Ciphrang" remain vague for me as well. Can you actually kill them? Do you just beat them to the point that they're sent back to the Outside? Which of these does a Chorae do? I assume they must be able to be killed in some fashion, since I know Zioz says, "Perhaps I'll die," to Iyokus when the latter mentions that there will be far more powerful Cishaurim the demon will have to face.
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If a Ciphrang can be killed (in the sense of 'permanently destroyed' rather than merely 'sent home'), then there's a pretty obvious loophole for a Daimotic sorcerer to escape being tortured for eternity by his own former pets when he dies. That makes me think permanently destroying a Ciphrang is probably not possible.
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I want to say that I remember "banished" being mentioned somewhere when talking about ciphrang, but thats probably just wishful thinking. I agree with Dusk. Not nearly as terrifying if you are free if it dies... Why not just have a Javreh throw a chorae at it.
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I always assumed the depth of a mark was an accumulation of sin.
As for Tigra, he was blind as a child?
That fact was what I guessed to be the reason for his different mark.
As for who is dammed?
It could be as simple as the Cish have no mark, so their faith is the true one?
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It could be as simple as the Cish have no mark, so their faith is the true one?
Certainly could be that simple. It feels quite Bakkerish to have everyone from all history be damned except the Cishaurim, who were all murmured anyway, with no chance of redemption.
But its way less fun to speculate about simple answers ;)
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As we know that all practicing sorcerers (bar Cishaurim) seem to be damned, does Inrau's unexpected use of sorcery for self defence just before the end of his life damn him, despite his choosing of priesthood over sorcery?
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Dracostar; Can't remember where, but pretty sure RSB confirmed Inrau was damned because of that use of sorcery out of text. Anyone with a better memory want to confirm?
Even given the assumption, it's important to remember; the Mark == damned, damned =/= the Mark.
It's an and/or logic gate which leaves the Cish quite open to being damned in other ways or for other reasons.
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Inrau was already damned as a result of his education by akka. When he realizes that he flees the mandate for the priesthood in a futile attempt to save his soul.
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You are right locke.
I found the 3C's thread where Scott asserts that Inrau is damned. He pretty much confirms that learning the denotaries would have be enough.
The timing of his damnation is otherwise unclear.
Now that I reread it, it does actually seem to allow that Onkis may have been able to intercede, ala Psatma's conversation with Meppa.
(re: the basis for his conversion).
Interesting that Akka avoids teaching such minor cants to Mim before she has her rethink.
http://forum.three-seas.com/topics/1005 (http://forum.three-seas.com/topics/1005)
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Is it possible that Onkis could not intervene as she did not recognise the threat of the skin-spies, considering they lack a soul? I believe Maitha stated this was the same reason the Hundred could not comprehend the No-God, which was why they considered Kellhus a demon.
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As we know that all practicing sorcerers (bar Cishaurim) seem to be damned, does Inrau's unexpected use of sorcery for self defence just before the end of his life damn him, despite his choosing of priesthood over sorcery?
Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Dracostar.
I think other's have covered the inquiry to the best known rationale.
On the Ciphrang thoughts upthread:
Fall upon them! the Voice screeched. Rend them! Only in their midst will you be safe from the Chorae!
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Setmahaga fell first, struck in the eye by an absence affixed to the end of a stick. An explosion of burning salt...
Flee!
Then Sohorat, his slavering form caught in torrents of light, screamed.
Weak...
There are others, the Voice said. Far, far stronger.
Perhaps I will die.
You are too mighty.
Perhaps you will die with me... Iyokus.
And in the end it grovelled beneath his song, cringed like a beaten animal, then faded into blackness...
As far as we know, the Chorae explicitly seems to permanently change their state (as per the Voice and the Salting?). Why sorcerers wouldn't just summon Ciphrang they were done with and Chorae them, who knows? Maybe, they do and the Scarlet Spires practice a strict disposal policy so that only mistakes or lack of skill get Schoolmen damned by Ciphrang.
Also, seems to indicate that a powerful enough sorcerer can "kill" a Ciphrang (implied by the fear of the Cishaurim - the one Ciphrang seems to have been attacked beyond his ken - and if anyone kills one by sorcery, it's Achamian in TWP).
So... the definitions remain pretty much up in the air still... Lol.
Is it possible that Onkis could not intervene as she did not recognise the threat of the skin-spies, considering they lack a soul? I believe Maitha stated this was the same reason the Hundred could not comprehend the No-God, which was why they considered Kellhus a demon.
Curethan, I think, is referring to this quote, which some of us think satisfies preceding conditions for Divine communication, especially after the Revelation of the Gods in TAE:
The small scroll clattered to the floor. The silence was complete, oppressive. His heart ached, so much was at stake. These were the events upon which the world turned. Enough for a Goddess.
"Please... Speak to me."
Nothing.
Tears branched across his face. He raised his arms, held them open until his shoulders burned.
"Anything!" he cried.
Run, his thoughts whispered. Run.
Such a coward! How could he be such a coward? Something behind him. The sound of flapping wings! Like the flutter of cloth among the towering pillars.
He turned his face to the shadowy ceiling, searching with his ears. Another flutter. Somewhere up in the clerestory. His skin prickled.
Is that you?
No.
Always doubting, why was he always doubting?
As far as I read it, we know that Onkis specifically is the Goddess who come before men in their thoughts. Onkis might not recognize the skin-spies but she'd recognize the simulacrum of Aurang in the Synthese. Inrau's own doubt of Inrithi metaphysics dooms him to misinterpret obvious communication from the Goddess ;).
[EDIT: I know Duskweaver's pointed out the "branching tears" but anyone notice the "flutter of" metaphor as Inrau first hears the Synthese's wings... Thinking of the Cishaurim showing up the Scarlet Spires.]
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I was also referring to the idea that the hundred can intervene to redeem those who would otherwise be damned. (Put forth by Psatma in text and supported by other statements from Scott on Z3C's.)
The fact the Onkis is possibly paying enough attention to Inrau to warn him might indicate that she would also accept his soul were he to reach - despite the fact that his damnation is tied to sorcery.
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[EDIT: I know Duskweaver's pointed out the "branching tears" but anyone notice the "flutter of" metaphor as Inrau first hears the Synthese's wings... Thinking of the Cishaurim showing up the Scarlet Spires.]
Are you suggesting that the reason that the Cish so fully dominated the SS during open conflict was because there was an Old Name secretly fighting for them? Or did I totally miss the mark there...
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Borric had started another thread to ask if the Consult could have been apart of the attack by the Cishaurim - I was offering a piece of evidence towards that theory (which I don't support).
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Hmm maybe I missed that topic. Kinda came outta left field ...
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Who attacked the Scarlet Spires and why? (http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1112.0)
However, I have heard others state their assumption that the Consult carried out the attack.
That the consult were concerned about a recent development at Shimeh.
Namely the Chishaurims ability (actually its Moe’s Dunyain ability) to discover their skin spies.
And that’s why they were attempting to manipulate Xerius into assisting the Holy War.
If it was the consult, why could Eleazaras see no blemish from sorcery?
Who exactly were these eyeless assassins if not Cishaurim?
That's part of how Borric started off but the topic quickly veered.
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Mimara's Judging Eye still seems so problematic for me. I think it likely that Bakker put it in the story, among other reasons, to give the reader an ultimate measure of morality in Earwe. The Judging Eye would confirm or disprove other's assessments. BUT, I think it's also possible Bakker is throwing us for another loop--that the Judging Eye is no more reliable than anything else--only showing Mimara/Reader the illusion of damnation/salvation. An Ajokli thing.
It all leads up to the moment that she confirms the information from the Inverse Fire giving Kellhus no reason to think that x is not damned triggering some kind of irreversible action. Old Moe laughs from the shadows because he saw true with the third sight.
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It all depends on whose eye judges? I think we're meant to believe that Mimara's Judging Eye provides a universal rule by which to measure but it could be inherently flerwed.
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Suddenly struck by how *negotiable* damnation appears to so many characters. You are damned UNLESS...you are caught by your ancestors (Zeum)...you hide your voice (Titirga/Nonmen)...you reach for the Goddess (Naneferi)...you seal the world (Consult).
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Sit still and accept eternal torture instead?
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Sit still and accept eternal torture instead?
WELL, when you put it like that... :)
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Sit still and accept eternal torture instead?
Suddenly struck by how *negotiable* damnation appears to so many characters. You are damned UNLESS...you are caught by your ancestors (Zeum)...you hide your voice (Titirga/Nonmen)...you reach for the Goddess (Naneferi)...you seal the world (Consult).
Yatwer doesn't promise salvation. The main advantage is that you know your torturer before you get there... So doing nothing/something doesn't necessarily have different outcomes.
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Perhaps there are no hells and no heavens per se in the Outside, just various realms. If you're in one you want to be in, it's heaven! If not, sucks for you. Yatwerians in Yatwer's Crib just kick it in lounge chairs. Non-yatwerians in Yatwer's Crib are food for the people in the lounge chairs.
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Pretty sure Yatwer says she tortures her disciples, and they know it. Could be wrong though. I think maybe a select few are spared, the true believers, but most everyone else is food (i.e. endlessly tortured).
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+1 MG and Wilshire; that could be it, I think. Does that mean the damned are an energy source. like a reverse Matrix thing?
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Does that mean the damned are an energy source. like a reverse Matrix thing?
+1 - that's be cool and Bakkerish.
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+1 MG and Wilshire; that could be it, I think. Does that mean the damned are an energy source. like a reverse Matrix thing?
An energy source that Yatwer uses to ascend to the Meta-Outside?!?
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More like the energy source that gives form/life to the universe. Gods and sorcerers are just taking advantage for their own 'benefit'.
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More like the energy source that gives form/life to the universe. Gods and sorcerers are just taking advantage for their own 'benefit'.
There's something like this in Lev Grossman's The Magician King. But I don't recommend it. :(
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Well, there is no such thing as a truly original idea ;)
But it does frame Bakker's description of Earwa as a metaphysical who-done-it quite nicely. Gives a motive to the question of why Hell exists and leaves the "who made it this way" open.
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Well, there is no such thing as a truly original idea ;)
But it does frame Bakker's description of Earwa as a metaphysical who-done-it quite nicely. Gives a motive to the question of why Hell exists and leaves the "who made it this way" open.
Lol, I found that out when I started reading posts here! Thought I was so clever--you, Wilshire, Madness and the others have me beat by YEARS!!! Grossman ain't got shit on Bakker tho. But I did like The Magicians as a kind of grown up and warped Narnia/Hogwarts.