The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The White-Luck Warrior => Topic started by: mrganondorf on August 22, 2014, 10:39:17 am

Title: How to kill a No-God without a Heron Spear?
Post by: mrganondorf on August 22, 2014, 10:39:17 am
That spear could well be long gone and it would make a nice moment for Achamian to come across it's broken fragments, the realization scroll slowly through his soul.  Surely this is a question that Kellhus has considered!  Whatever his secret plans are, he's got to be prepared for contingencies.  Possibilities:

1. Drop the earth out from under it.  Killing Mog like Titirga.  Seems unlikely/anticlimactic.  Would it even work?  Damn thing might keep flying or just zoom out of the hole.  Maybe you could crush it closing the earth back up?  Meta-gnosis/gnostic or quya concerts could make a big hole in the ground.

2. Meta-daimos.  The carapace is supposed to have 11 chorae on it BUT...Achamian suggested that chorae have limited effect against some level of intrusion from the Outside when he was thinking that Mimara should not have been able to dispatch the unholy Seal of Cil-Aujus.

3. Big hammers.  Kellhus can just make a dozen Yalgrotta-kin fly into the air and smash the nimil case with blunt force.  The 11 chorae might not have an effect unless you touch them in which case Kellhus would just continuously refloat those who were momentarily unmagicked.  Does not work if the whirlwind is itself an unmagic field.

MOAR?
Title: Re: How to kill a No-God without a Heron Spear?
Post by: Francis Buck on August 22, 2014, 12:22:54 pm
My bets are on the Judging Eye, or some sort of crazy metaphysical loophole Kellhus figured out twenty years ago (which may or may not involve using the No-God to his own advantage).

I personally doubt we'll ever see the Heron Spear again. I think it was only ever meant to serve as 1.) A plot-device for "killing" the No-God in the backstory of the series without having to reveal much of anything so far as what the No-God actually is, and 2.) A general red-herring for the series. Unless a big part of the latter books involve the finding/acquisition/recharging of the Spear, then it's hard to see how it could work in a way that didn't feel anti-climactic, at least to me. Instakill BFG is kind of a lame way to defeat something like the No-God (I don't think it was ever even "killed" in the first place, just temporarily incapacitated). It's okay for the backstory, but would feel like a cop-out if the same thing is done again.
Title: Re: How to kill a No-God without a Heron Spear?
Post by: Wic on August 22, 2014, 04:46:24 pm
Holy jeepers, what if you launched the NG into the Outside via a portal?  Would that be like matter and anti-matter touching?  Would it be crushed by the sheer weight of will that seems to be the source of power and influence there?  Could it be isolated in the mundane world?

I think that, whatever the mechanism of the HS, it is a purely mundane, physical effect, and that it is still capable of being destroyed in such a manner.  That's why they didn't release it onto the battlefield until they were desperate, that's why they have a whirlwind protecting it and having it float high in the sky (I think I'm presuming that last one...).

Hell, maybe Kell's been developing cannons.  Even if they didn't have gunpowder, they could surely launch things by magical means.
Title: Re: How to kill a No-God without a Heron Spear?
Post by: Garet Jax on August 22, 2014, 05:07:02 pm
My money is also TJE being the best way to actually "kill" the No God.  The god(s) couldn't be still be blind to the No God if (t)he(y) is/are looking right at it.


Also, Kellhus uses a whirlwind for protection in Shimeh... That is mighty No-God-Esque of him.
Title: Re: How to kill a No-God without a Heron Spear?
Post by: mrganondorf on August 23, 2014, 05:17:25 am
@ FB - I agree that the HS is likely gone forever, but I think it will still be an important bit of TUC.  Akka realizing its gone will be good.  Or maybe Sorweel finds its broken fragments in Ishterebinth's basement.

@ FB & GJ - D'oh!  How did I forget about the Judging Eye?  I guess sometimes I'm thinking of the carapace and what Mimara did to the unholy seal as choric things, so they would be allied and not opposed.  I don't know.

@ Wic - what a novel solution!  Get rid of Mog and the Hundred in one fell swoop!  Humanity is free!  Does that mean its definitely not going to happen? :(

@ GJ - oooohhhhh, i like that parallel of Kellhus in Shimeh/whirlwind, nice!
Title: Re: How to kill a No-God without a Heron Spear?
Post by: The Sharmat on September 03, 2014, 02:01:11 am
I imagine Achamian and the Mandate have long since written off the Heron-Spear as lost. If they hadn't, they'd have spent time looking for it, since it's the only weapon known to be able to harm the No-God. It disappeared when the Scylvendi sacked the city it was in. If the Scylvendi Memorialists preserved the circumstances of their God's defeat, then it's likely the Scylvendi recognized the Heron Spear for what it was, and destroyed it to avenge their God. It's just a laser gun. It's quite destructible.

And even if it hadn't been destroyed, it's been two thousand years. Who can even say if its power source still works? It was the very last weapon of the Inchoroi. It could have finally failed.

As or Kellhus definitely having a plan to deal with the No-God...I'm not so sure that's the case. The entirety of his plan seems to hinge on getting to Golgotterath before the No-God is reborn. There would seem to be no other option, and no way to search for other weaknesses without capturing a very high-ranking member of the Consult who would actually have knowledge of what the No-God actually is. The Skin-Spies are not given knowledge like that. They're given precious little knowledge at all. Moenghus had been working on some for a decade, and had very little information to hare with Kellhus (though it's possible Kellhus had let Moenghus die before he could divulge all he knew).

Further, Cnaiur notes when talking with the Skin-Spies that their knowledge of themselves was curiously limited. They described themselves as servants of the Inverse Fire, but seemed incapable of saying what the Inverse Fire actually is.

I think this is part of the readership's consistent overestimation of Kellhus. The Great Ordeal is Kellhus' great gambit. This is his plan, and while I'm sure he has plenty of tricks in store, they're in service of the goal we see, not some hidden one.

Note that I don't blame anyone for overestimating Kellhus, mind. Almost all point of view characters, including Kellhus himself, view him as virtually infallible. The only exceptions are Moenghus and, much later, Maithanet. I believe Bakker is deliberately distilling a sense of Godhood about Kellhus, while also seeding the books with hints that said Godhood is false. They're small things. Kellhus doing something so simple as tripping in the chapter when he meets Moenghus, for example. But for the attentive reader, they're there. And I suspect we'll all marvel at the hints on  re-read after we see what they're building too.
Title: Re: How to kill a No-God without a Heron Spear?
Post by: Wilshire on September 09, 2014, 12:54:14 am
But what if the NG is created The Sarmat? What then? I think that might be cause for a whole series... Either TSA or TSTSNBN. Trying to find out how to stop the consult/NG post Great Ordeal failure would make for some interesting story developments I think.
Title: Re: How to kill a No-God without a Heron Spear?
Post by: The Sharmat on September 09, 2014, 01:11:08 am
Yeah then I think we're getting another decade or so of horror between Unholy Consult followed by the final series.
Title: Re: How to kill a No-God without a Heron Spear?
Post by: EkyannusIII on September 11, 2014, 04:22:05 pm
Kellhus can almost certainly reconstruct the Heron Spear, it's principles are simply the extension of the technology used to burn ants with a magnifying lens.  I am somewhat disappointed that the only new war tech we have gotten to see are some unspecified siege engines mentioned in TJE.
Title: Re: How to kill a No-God without a Heron Spear?
Post by: The Sharmat on September 11, 2014, 08:50:52 pm
I don't think we can really say that for sure about the Heron Spear. It could be any manner of projected energy weapon. And even Kellhus doesn't have the intellect to advance multiple required fields of science from iron age to post space age in 20 years. Modern optics couldn't reconstruct the Heron Spear, and they're the result of centuries of advances in instrumentation and material science and information processing. Kellhus doesn't even have the concept of a logic gate.
Title: Re: How to kill a No-God without a Heron Spear?
Post by: Cüréthañ on September 11, 2014, 11:43:26 pm
Modern optics couldn't reconstruct the Heron Spear, and they're the result of centuries of advances in instrumentation and material science and information processing. Kellhus doesn't even have the concept of a logic gate.

I disagree.
Kellhus has clearly mastered most pure mathematics including induction. The gnosis clearly turns on mathematics.

However, when vocally balancing an equation or rendering a proof causes shit to blow up or the ability to manifest illusions, how does one progress to discovering electromagnetism et al.
I doubt Newton would be known for defining the laws of physics and inventing calculus if his experiments and research on alchemy and prophecy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton%27s_occult_studies) had panned out.
Title: Re: How to kill a No-God without a Heron Spear?
Post by: The Sharmat on September 12, 2014, 12:01:35 am
Being able to perform calculus doesn't mean you can build a laser. Some things aren't going to be apparent from pure mathematical principles.
Title: Re: How to kill a No-God without a Heron Spear?
Post by: Cüréthañ on September 12, 2014, 12:19:27 am
Yes, quite. 
My point is why you would even want to build a laser when just expressing the math is enough to generate laser effects.
Heck, even writing down the theory behind thermodynamics might cause an explosion.
Title: Re: How to kill a No-God without a Heron Spear?
Post by: The Sharmat on September 12, 2014, 02:41:34 am
Is that what the Gnosis does? I envisioned it more as pure math and pure logic than scientific theories used to model observed reality. I mean, the Gnosis is also called "the Abstractions".
Title: Re: How to kill a No-God without a Heron Spear?
Post by: Cüréthañ on September 12, 2014, 04:19:57 am
Just my opinion, but;

Well, abstract math generally arises from understanding phenomena (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstraction_(mathematics)).
Once you start generating energy and burning and cutting its not really abstract any more, is it? 
Sorcery comes from using abstracted knowledge of meaning to leverage material change, just as scientific theory does.  It's just a lot faster and more imprecise because its driven by subjective perception.

Kellhus' development of the meta-gnosis and secondary usage of sorcery (i.e. using debris to deflect chorae) shows innovative applications and extensions of the gnostic abstractions by development and application of theory, no?
Title: Re: How to kill a No-God without a Heron Spear?
Post by: The Sharmat on September 12, 2014, 04:37:08 am
I'm arguing that the application and development of Gnostic theory does not necessarily overlap with physics. We're working with another set of rules here. There's a reason the Tekne was the dominant force in Inchoroi society prior to their arrival in Earwa. We have no reason to believe Kellhus has mathematically derived basic concepts like the doppler effect or other optical principles that would probably be necessary to repair the technological artifact that is the Heron Spear.

Now if you're saying he could duplicate its effects using sorcery: sure, probably. Of course, that would be subject to negation by Chorae so the whole point of the Heron Spear then becomes moot.
Title: Re: How to kill a No-God without a Heron Spear?
Post by: Cüréthañ on September 12, 2014, 05:47:49 am
Actually, I was off on a tangent from your statement that Kellhus doesn't have the understanding of basic discrete mathematics (i.e. logic gates).

He might be able to reverse engineer the function of the Heron Spear and fill in the gaps of technological know-how with sorcerous artifice (e.g. using geometric theorems to create a replacement photonic crystal or something), idk.  I wasn't really intending to go that way, speculatively. ;) 

I do think that second hand effects of sorcery manipulating the mundane would be key if Mog walks and needs to be destroyed without the heron spear.  Like dropping an asteroid on him or something.
Title: Re: How to kill a No-God without a Heron Spear?
Post by: Wilshire on September 12, 2014, 06:11:25 pm
Like dropping an asteroid on him or something.
Kellhus=Sephiroth :P
Title: Re: How to kill a No-God without a Heron Spear?
Post by: mrganondorf on September 24, 2014, 05:24:14 pm
if mog is resurrected inside the ark, maybe kellhus would attempt to lock it in the ark to buy time to find a more permanent solution
Title: Re: How to kill a No-God without a Heron Spear?
Post by: mrganondorf on February 07, 2016, 09:08:22 pm
i found the obscenity that even Mog cannot stomach.  behold, the heron video!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hh9lWK-iwc
Title: Re: How to kill a No-God without a Heron Spear?
Post by: citizensnips on February 29, 2016, 10:36:47 pm
I feel like I missed something, I always see the Heron Spear referred to as a laser weapon. Where does that come from?
Title: Re: How to kill a No-God without a Heron Spear?
Post by: mrganondorf on February 29, 2016, 11:16:27 pm
I feel like I missed something, I always see the Heron Spear referred to as a laser weapon. Where does that come from?

hi citizenships!  nice profile pic :)

this is all i know about it--from the first chapter in TWP, Akka is recalling Seswatha and Anaxophus

"A thread of silver light, swaying across the spiraling heights, flashing across the Carapace. A crack that
made ears bleed. Everywhere, raining debris. The anguished wail of innumerable inhuman throats."

it def could be something other than a laserish thingy, i guess, i'm just not sure what.  i wonder if it's it all significant that the Heron Spear beam is silver like Mimara's haloes?
Title: Re: How to kill a No-God without a Heron Spear?
Post by: H on March 01, 2016, 11:07:17 am
I feel like I missed something, I always see the Heron Spear referred to as a laser weapon. Where does that come from?

hi citizenships!  nice profile pic :)

this is all i know about it--from the first chapter in TWP, Akka is recalling Seswatha and Anaxophus

"A thread of silver light, swaying across the spiraling heights, flashing across the Carapace. A crack that
made ears bleed. Everywhere, raining debris. The anguished wail of innumerable inhuman throats."

it def could be something other than a laserish thingy, i guess, i'm just not sure what.  i wonder if it's it all significant that the Heron Spear beam is silver like Mimara's haloes?

Also, this from the glossary:

Quote
Overmatched by the Inchoroi and their weapons of light, the Nonmen of Viri were driven back with horrendous losses.
...
Cû’jara-Cinmoi himself struck down Sil, and wrested from him his great weapon, Suörgil, “Shining Death,” which Men in a latter age would call the Heron Spear.

Putting all that together, we figure it is (was?) a laser of some sort.

EDIT: Good question and welcome citizensnips!
Title: Re: How to kill a No-God without a Heron Spear?
Post by: Blackstone on March 03, 2016, 11:53:27 pm
I think one of two ways:
1) Kellhus makes it into the Ark and finds renderings of the Nail of Heaven, which is indeed a mother ship the Inch can't control with the damaged Ark. He then teleports himself to the mother ship, finds a storage locker full of charged plasma cannons, and teleports back. Problem solved.

2) Much more likely, because I believe Kellhus will be the final soul needed to resurrect the No-God and he will therefore be unavailable to save the world, Mimara will invert the chorae on the carapace, causing the No-God to implode. The implosion will also have the added benefit of keeping a new Indigo Plague from spreading across the Ordeal. This will probably happen in the last series because I think the UC will end with Kellhus's death and the No-God's return.
Title: Re: How to kill a No-God without a Heron Spear?
Post by: H on March 04, 2016, 01:31:32 pm
I think one of two ways:
1) Kellhus makes it into the Ark and finds renderings of the Nail of Heaven, which is indeed a mother ship the Inch can't control with the damaged Ark. He then teleports himself to the mother ship, finds a storage locker full of charged plasma cannons, and teleports back. Problem solved.

2) Much more likely, because I believe Kellhus will be the final soul needed to resurrect the No-God and he will therefore be unavailable to save the world, Mimara will invert the chorae on the carapace, causing the No-God to implode. The implosion will also have the added benefit of keeping a new Indigo Plague from spreading across the Ordeal. This will probably happen in the last series because I think the UC will end with Kellhus's death and the No-God's return.

I don't think they'll need to kill the No-God because I'm not really convinced that the Consult is prepared to resurrect him.  I know we've been vaguely told this, but I'm not really buying it.

On Kellhus, well, if we follow the vague Dune parallels, I think each series is named for each disposition of Kellhus.  First a Prince of Nothing, then an Aspect Emperor.  I think the last is something like God-Emperor, or something with a better ring to it.  That's probably something for a different thread though...
Title: Re: How to kill a No-God without a Heron Spear?
Post by: Blackstone on March 04, 2016, 03:15:08 pm
I think one of two ways:
1) Kellhus makes it into the Ark and finds renderings of the Nail of Heaven, which is indeed a mother ship the Inch can't control with the damaged Ark. He then teleports himself to the mother ship, finds a storage locker full of charged plasma cannons, and teleports back. Problem solved.

2) Much more likely, because I believe Kellhus will be the final soul needed to resurrect the No-God and he will therefore be unavailable to save the world, Mimara will invert the chorae on the carapace, causing the No-God to implode. The implosion will also have the added benefit of keeping a new Indigo Plague from spreading across the Ordeal. This will probably happen in the last series because I think the UC will end with Kellhus's death and the No-God's return.

 I know we've been vaguely told this, but I'm not really buying it.


By Scott? Does anyone know where this is?
Title: Re: How to kill a No-God without a Heron Spear?
Post by: H on March 04, 2016, 03:36:19 pm
By Scott? Does anyone know where this is?

No, in the books, we are told that:

Quote
“The Consult, you realized, were labouring to save their souls. And what was more, if your captives could be believed, they were drawing near the end of their millennial task.”

Presumably that means the resurrection of the No-God, but I have my doubts.
Title: Re: How to kill a No-God without a Heron Spear?
Post by: mrganondorf on April 01, 2016, 01:29:45 am
I think one of two ways:
1) Kellhus makes it into the Ark and finds renderings of the Nail of Heaven, which is indeed a mother ship the Inch can't control with the damaged Ark. He then teleports himself to the mother ship, finds a storage locker full of charged plasma cannons, and teleports back. Problem solved.

2) Much more likely, because I believe Kellhus will be the final soul needed to resurrect the No-God and he will therefore be unavailable to save the world, Mimara will invert the chorae on the carapace, causing the No-God to implode. The implosion will also have the added benefit of keeping a new Indigo Plague from spreading across the Ordeal. This will probably happen in the last series because I think the UC will end with Kellhus's death and the No-God's return.

#1 - That's a really convenient way to get rid of Mog!

#2 - This is a fascinating possibility.  Mimara did her thing when she was holding the little Chorae--will she need to embrace the Carapace to implode it?  That would be a cool scene.  Maybe someone flies her up there in a chariot and she hugs it until it cracks and underneath it's ... BAKKER HIMSELF
Title: Re: How to kill a No-God without a Heron Spear?
Post by: W00tard on April 01, 2016, 06:05:24 pm
Hey All--I've been a long time lurker both here and at the asoiaf forum...  I don't know if this has been discussed before--certainly not that I've seen.  As this is at least tangentially related to the discussion of Kellhus reconstructing the heron spear, it seemed as appropriate a place to put it as any...

Do we know what the technological sophistication of the Dunyain actually is?  During one of the flashback scenes I seem to recall that Kellhus thinks to himself that the Neuropuncture technique that allows the Dunyain failures to retain some use (in the face room) was developed something like 300 years before.  If that is the case, then it demonstrates a similar level of medical know-how to modern medicine ~300 years prior to the events of the second apocalypse.

Also, given what we know of his training in logic--I strongly suspect that the Dunyain are technologically far more sohisticated than we have yet been shown.  This seems likely to be by design as well--if these are analogues to the first and second foundation.  Additionally, wouldn't the "mundane" development of non-sorcerous weapons be best achieved by those who operate in the absence of sorcery.  Perhaps that's why the Dunyain chiseled the runes off the walls...  Just a thought.
 
Title: Re: How to kill a No-God without a Heron Spear?
Post by: Wilshire on April 01, 2016, 06:16:32 pm
Comes down to need, I think. There is not invention without necessity - this was the lesson of the first foundation.

Could they ahve derived the axioms of physics, electricity, and down along that line of reasonaing, AIs? Probably. But would they bother?

Remember that Kellhus seemed to have never seen the maths taught to him by Achamian during the Holy War. It would be hard to derive computational logistics without math.
Title: Re: How to kill a No-God without a Heron Spear?
Post by: Bolivar on April 01, 2016, 06:30:45 pm
^ He also extended those theorems to more sophisticated expressions shortly after seeing them.

While the Dunyain might not have sophisticated technology outside of the apparatuses designed to assist their mastery of thought, face, and limb, they do seem to have the mental capacity to quickly develop other advanced inventions. I could see Kellhus having sought out Tekne artifacts to reverse engineer in the 20 years since PoN and hopefully Kelmomas stumbles across stuff like this exploring the hidden passages of the Andiamine heights. Rediscovering the lost principles of the Tekne is my theory as to why the Dunyain exist.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: How to kill a No-God without a Heron Spear?
Post by: Wilshire on April 01, 2016, 06:43:09 pm
Ah thats a clever thought. The Dunyain themselves are pretty cloistered, but well primed to explode into action once released. Reverse engineering the principles of advanced civilizations is exactly something that Kell or other Dunyain would be particularly adapt at.