The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Great Ordeal => The Aspect-Emperor => TGO ARC Discussion => Topic started by: mrganondorf on May 12, 2016, 04:41:56 pm
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For my part this settles it--Bakker is a liar. Throw out all the interviews! We'll never know when he's fucking with us until it's too late. Really, I like the Unreliable
narrator Author. It's fun, keeps me on my toes.
EDIT: Btw, something is up with Cnaiur. He's like 70 and hale as ever. Also, when Mimara sees him, he is something like a "Prince of Hell." That got me thinking. Damnation isn't really the problem per se. If you are damned but will live on like a Ciphrang or some kind of Infernal Nobility, then you are basically not damned.
The real problem is if you are both damned and subject to another as food or a toy for their cruel pleasure. Cnaiur is so freaking devout! He's lived the most holy life (worshiping with war) and will therefore find his way into the spirit realm as a privileged individual.
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Yeah. I'm a little chapped by that.
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Nah, that shit was awesome!
Also, as I mentioned to Blackstone last night this was Bakker's last word on the subject in Author Q&A (http://forum.three-seas.com/topics/1004) at ZTS, within a handful of posts of when he disappeared from the internet:
I was afraid of this question, simply because I knew that anyone who asked would likely hate my answer. All I can say is that I thought long and hard about that ending, and had dozens of discussions about it with those who read the first draft. As it stands, I think it's perfect, it's the way Cnaiur's arc simply has to end. Beyond that...
I fucking love how Kosoter under the Eye, especially, but everything under the Eye, was just a build up to Cnaiur under the Eye! The Swazond was smoking when viewed by the Eye!
Also, as I mentioned to Blackstone last night, I find it very interesting that Cnaiur's commitment to Golgotterath is volatile and seemingly depended on his being involved in the sack of Ishual - which the Consult withheld from him!
EDIT: Btw, something is up with Cnaiur. He's like 70 and hale as ever.
Consult's got all the good drugs, baby.
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Consult's got all the good drugs, baby.
Well, it's not like he has a Womb...
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Yeah, I've gotten over being chapped. Cnaiur is my favorite character from any book ever, and it's gonna be awesome to see him on the pages of TUC.
I agree, it does seem like his loyalty to the Consult isn't a sure thing. Perhaps he'll ride against Golgotterath and redeem the People. When they went into his yaksh and Mimara kept looking at all the things hanging on the wall, I kept thinking we would see the Heron Spear.
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Regarding Cnaiur's relative strength and health at his age. Taking a deep breath...
If belief is all in Earwa, which seems to be true to some extent, anyway, then the Scylvendi belief that swazond carry the momentum of the lives that the bearer has ended, and Cnaiur has more swazond than any other Scylvendi, then maybe those lives are enervating him beyond what would normally be possible, cuz he's an avalanche of souls.
(sucking in air)
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Or perhaps there really was something to Moe telling him that he needed Cnaiür's strength...
I would more likely be betting on the Consult slipping him a Womb-Plague mickey though...
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Regarding Cnaiur's relative strength and health at his age. Taking a deep breath...
If belief is all in Earwa, which seems to be true to some extent, anyway, then the Scylvendi belief that swazond carry the momentum of the lives that the bearer has ended, and Cnaiur has more swazond than any other Scylvendi, then maybe those lives are enervating him beyond what would normally be possible, cuz he's an avalanche of souls.
(sucking in air)
This is interesting. Not sure I agree, but as Madness said, the swazond were smoking in the Eye's gaze.
Edit - Does belief make real in Earwa? Saubon believed he was saved but was, in fact, damned.
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Cnaiur, how your return dishartens me.
For me, it seemed like fan services. Lots of people love Cnaiur, and didn't appreciate his 'death' and his 'story arc being finished' - which btw that was from some of the lasts threads in ZTS (according to Madness).
If he's got more than a cameo in the next book, I'll reneg. Otherwise, Mimara could have gazed upon any Scylvendi and see the damnation of their race, etc. etc. No real reason to have Cnaiur around for just that one particular scene.
He raises a great point. He outwitted a Dunyain where not a single other person has. If anyone could wield the Consult, it would be him.
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Regarding Cnaiur's relative strength and health at his age. Taking a deep breath...
If belief is all in Earwa, which seems to be true to some extent, anyway, then the Scylvendi belief that swazond carry the momentum of the lives that the bearer has ended, and Cnaiur has more swazond than any other Scylvendi, then maybe those lives are enervating him beyond what would normally be possible, cuz he's an avalanche of souls.
(sucking in air)
Very interesting. Also, just had the thought that Cnaiur gave Serwe a ritual Swazond...
As I mentioned to Wilshire last night - I don't buy that the return of Cnaiur is a fan service. Bakker's forethought regarding The Second Apocalypse, its characters and plot arcs, inspire me to have faith that he isn't doing anything "for the fans," that he is cleaving the original narrative conception as much as possible.
Also, as mentioned last night: Cnaiur isn't just any Scylvendi, he's what Inrilatas aspired to be - Cnaiur is the Most Damned Soul. Whatever that means, on top of the Scylvendi Swazond smoking in the sight of the Eye...
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I suppose this is the place to bring this up. Just before reading the ARC, I was pondering what the Scylvendi did with their Few, I mean surely, past me figured, they have the Few. Then lo and behold, we get one in the ARC. Does anyone else suppose these are perhaps the memorialists? Or is this an entirely different thing?
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They probably hunt down chorae after battles. Otherwise, I dont think they have a School - I don't think there is Scylvendi magic.
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They probably hunt down chorae after battles. Otherwise, I dont think they have a School - I don't think there is Scylvendi magic.
No no. I am not saying that the Scylvendi Few actually wield magic. I figure they are something akin to the College of Luthymae (sp).
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Scylvendi magi? (http://forum.three-seas.com/topics/711):
Though the capacity to work sorcery is innate, it's actual use requires much training and education - something which favours literate cultures. Though its possible for preliterate peoples to practice sorcery (sorcerers hailing from oral traditions are called Shamans), the Scylvendi have such a narrow notion of what constitutes 'honourable practice,' that the few Few that are born among them all become herdsmen and warriors. They think warring with words is womanish.
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Here we are, 11 years later. Same questions, different people.
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Time is a flat circle.
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Dear Madness,
A circle *is* flat.
Love,
A Sphere
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Will Cnaiur be able to lead the Scylvendi against the GO once it becomes apparent that Proyas is now in command? Cnaiur doesn't seem to have any great love for the Consult, or any particular allegiance to their war, he just wants War.
In rereading/listening to the PoN, it's clear the Cnaiur seems to have genuine feelings of affection for Proyas (saves him in the desert, tells Akka to warn him about Kellhus, etc) and now Proyas is on the path to no longer believing in Kellhus as a god, and at the head of an army which for all intents and purposes is on a collision course with the People of War. Did Kellhus foresee this? Is this why he left, to allow an alliance of the two? Just a thought.
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Dear Madness,
A circle *is* flat.
Love,
A Sphere
Lol - well, you tell that to the writer of True Detectives :P.
Will Cnaiur be able to lead the Scylvendi against the GO once it becomes apparent that Proyas is now in command? Cnaiur doesn't seem to have any great love for the Consult, or any particular allegiance to their war, he just wants War.
In rereading/listening to the PoN, it's clear the Cnaiur seems to have genuine feelings of affection for Proyas (saves him in the desert, tells Akka to warn him about Kellhus, etc) and now Proyas is on the path to no longer believing in Kellhus as a god, and at the head of an army which for all intents and purposes is on a collision course with the People of War. Did Kellhus foresee this? Is this why he left, to allow an alliance of the two? Just a thought.
Supposing that Serwa, Sorweel, and Moenghus make it back to the Ordeal with the Nonmen, a real father and son reunion is likely too.
So many cool character interactions possible in TUC.
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Any ideas on how the Scylvendi plan on making it to Golgatterath? Or, for that matter, Akka and Mimara? Ford the Leash?
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Any ideas on how the Scylvendi plan on making it to Golgatterath? Or, for that matter, Akka and Mimara? Ford the Leash?
Well, Akka and Mimara can walk the echo of the ground across the leash if she'll ditch her chorae. But if I had to guess, I'd say they'll build a raft.
I'd guess it won't be a problem for the Scylvendi. They're on horses, are skilled hunters, and don't need to worry about sranc, so they can just loop up around the sea.
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Any ideas on how the Scylvendi plan on making it to Golgatterath? Or, for that matter, Akka and Mimara? Ford the Leash?
Well, Akka and Mimara can walk the echo of the ground across the leash if she'll ditch her chorae. But if I had to guess, I'd say they'll build a raft.
I'd guess it won't be a problem for the Scylvendi. They're on horses, are skilled hunters, and don't need to worry about sranc, so they can just loop up around the sea.
That seems like it would take a really long time, even without resistance and on horseback. The GO is on Golgotterath's doorstep. My money is on crossing the Leash. That being said, they'd need ships. The Leash isn't portrayed as a 'normal' river on the maps. I doubt there's anything close to a ford, it simply looks too wide.
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Any ideas on how the Scylvendi plan on making it to Golgatterath? Or, for that matter, Akka and Mimara? Ford the Leash?
Well, Akka and Mimara can walk the echo of the ground across the leash if she'll ditch her chorae. But if I had to guess, I'd say they'll build a raft.
I'd guess it won't be a problem for the Scylvendi. They're on horses, are skilled hunters, and don't need to worry about sranc, so they can just loop up around the sea.
That seems like it would take a really long time, even without resistance and on horseback. The GO is on Golgotterath's doorstep. My money is on crossing the Leash. That being said, they'd need ships. The Leash isn't portrayed as a 'normal' river on the maps. I doubt there's anything close to a ford, it simply looks too wide.
I guess since they're working for the Consult, it wouldn't be such a surprise if they've made arrangements for ships to cross the Leash.
The whole "ships" thing makes me wonder if there isn't a reserve fleet on it's way from the TS to spell the ordeal once they've reached Golgatterath.
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Any ideas on how the Scylvendi plan on making it to Golgatterath? Or, for that matter, Akka and Mimara? Ford the Leash?
Well, Akka and Mimara can walk the echo of the ground across the leash if she'll ditch her chorae. But if I had to guess, I'd say they'll build a raft.
I'd guess it won't be a problem for the Scylvendi. They're on horses, are skilled hunters, and don't need to worry about sranc, so they can just loop up around the sea.
That seems like it would take a really long time, even without resistance and on horseback. The GO is on Golgotterath's doorstep. My money is on crossing the Leash. That being said, they'd need ships. The Leash isn't portrayed as a 'normal' river on the maps. I doubt there's anything close to a ford, it simply looks too wide.
It looks like a strait to me and probably miles across, so I agree there's no way to ford it. And the Scylvendi are the furthest thing from sailors imaginable.
Tactically, it would make sense for them to go up and around the sea. They'd be hitting the GO in the rear as they tried to assault Golgotterath.
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It looks like a strait to me and probably miles across, so I agree there's no way to ford it. And the Scylvendi are the furthest thing from sailors imaginable.
Tactically, it would make sense for them to go up and around the sea. They'd be hitting the GO in the rear as they tried to assault Golgotterath.
I was turning over posibilties in my head and while riding all the way around the Neleost is possible, it seems like it would just take too long. But it is possible, it seemed like an awfully long distance from Sauglish to Ishual, yet Mim and Akka walked it pretty quick (no way they walked faster than a horse).
Another option is that the Consult build a bridge for them, or that one already exists that we just don't know about. I mean, it sure does look wide though.
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It looks like a strait to me and probably miles across, so I agree there's no way to ford it. And the Scylvendi are the furthest thing from sailors imaginable.
Tactically, it would make sense for them to go up and around the sea. They'd be hitting the GO in the rear as they tried to assault Golgotterath.
I was turning over posibilties in my head and while riding all the way around the Neleost is possible, it seems like it would just take too long. But it is possible, it seemed like an awfully long distance from Sauglish to Ishual, yet Mim and Akka walked it pretty quick (no way they walked faster than a horse).
Another option is that the Consult build a bridge for them, or that one already exists that we just don't know about. I mean, it sure does look wide though.
I just can't imagine there is a bridge. Kuniuri was a bronze age society, and 2000 years have passed. Does the Consult have a workforce skilled enough to build a bridge that long? It seems unlikely.
If the Consult had some means of conveying the entire Scylvendi horde across the Leash, I feel like we would have seen it by now (of course we had no inkling of the nuke). And I can't imagine the nonmen ferrying them across in some way.
Edit - this is being discussed in the Dagliash thread: The GO may not have a way to penetrate the Ark. If that's true, the Consult can just sit back and wait the extra time it will take the Scylvendi to get around the Neleost and smash into the Ordeal.
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So, I think there are pretty good arguments for either approach to getting the Scylvendi into position to attack the GO. As far as going around the Neleost, there would be several disadvantages, the way I see it. One: time. The GO is busting ass to get to Golgotterath before winter sets in. If the Scylvendi are meant to attack them soonish, I'm not sure they could get around before deep winter hits. They would probably be delayed until spring, which would probably be too late for Golgotterath if they were needed as reinforcements. Two: at some point, they will encounter the denuded land that both the Horde and the GO trampled over and decimated. They would have no food or forage, and wouldn't necessarily have a Horde of sranc to eat to sustain them. Additionally, they would probably run into that situation as winter is setting in, making forage even more difficult.
On the other hand, Cnaiur was one of the principals in the Holy War that supervised the crossing of the entire army across the Sempis, arguably one of the greatest rivers in the Three Seas. I also don't think there's a bridge over The Leash, but surely he, of all Scylvendi, could orchestrate such a crossing with great rafts, barges, ferries, something of the like. He didn't seem to have any compunctions about crossing water, as he did it many times on scouting raids and such, before the Holy War actually crossed. I imagine the Consult would employ Quya to keep the things steady and/or to propel them across the water. Similar to Kellhus' Raft, but arguably easier since these would be floating on water, and not in the air.
I think my two cents were spent long ago. :)
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I just can't imagine there is a bridge. Kuniuri was a bronze age society, and 2000 years have passed. Does the Consult have a workforce skilled enough to build a bridge that long? It seems unlikely.
If the Consult had some means of conveying the entire Scylvendi horde across the Leash, I feel like we would have seen it by now (of course we had no inkling of the nuke). And I can't imagine the nonmen ferrying them across in some way.
Improbable, yes, but not impossible. Access to soggomant would kind of allow them to make anything damn near indestructible. Did they bother to though? Probably not.
Edit - this is being discussed in the Dagliash thread: The GO may not have a way to penetrate the Ark. If that's true, the Consult can just sit back and wait the extra time it will take the Scylvendi to get around the Neleost and smash into the Ordeal.
Indeed, this is the most likely answer. Question I am now thinking of though, is if Kellhus could pick up a navy and toss it at a city, could he pick up the Ark and flip it over? Or toss it?
I imagine the Consult would employ Quya to keep the things steady and/or to propel them across the water. Similar to Kellhus' Raft, but arguably easier since these would be floating on water, and not in the air.
Hmm, this has me wondering, the Quya that the Consult employed, were they from Golgotterath or Ishterebinth? Because if they were from the latter, they might all be dead now...
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So, I think there are pretty good arguments for either approach to getting the Scylvendi into position to attack the GO. As far as going around the Neleost, there would be several disadvantages, the way I see it. One: time. The GO is busting ass to get to Golgotterath before winter sets in. If the Scylvendi are meant to attack them soonish, I'm not sure they could get around before deep winter hits. They would probably be delayed until spring, which would probably be too late for Golgotterath if they were needed as reinforcements. Two: at some point, they will encounter the denuded land that both the Horde and the GO trampled over and decimated. They would have no food or forage, and wouldn't necessarily have a Horde of sranc to eat to sustain them. Additionally, they would probably run into that situation as winter is setting in, making forage even more difficult.
On the other hand, Cnaiur was one of the principals in the Holy War that supervised the crossing of the entire army across the Sempis, arguably one of the greatest rivers in the Three Seas. I also don't think there's a bridge over The Leash, but surely he, of all Scylvendi, could orchestrate such a crossing with great rafts, barges, ferries, something of the like. He didn't seem to have any compunctions about crossing water, as he did it many times on scouting raids and such, before the Holy War actually crossed. I imagine the Consult would employ Quya to keep the things steady and/or to propel them across the water. Similar to Kellhus' Raft, but arguably easier since these would be floating on water, and not in the air.
I think my two cents were spent long ago. :)
You make some really good points. Lack of forage and winter setting in would be a huge problem. On the other hand, and maybe the scale of the map is off, but as I look at it, it seems the leash is wide enough that you couldn't see across it, and that seems like a tall order for rafts packed with horses and men. They'd be fighting the tide too. Perhaps it narrows considerably in places, and in that case, I am sure they can figure something out.
I just can't imagine there is a bridge. Kuniuri was a bronze age society, and 2000 years have passed. Does the Consult have a workforce skilled enough to build a bridge that long? It seems unlikely.
If the Consult had some means of conveying the entire Scylvendi horde across the Leash, I feel like we would have seen it by now (of course we had no inkling of the nuke). And I can't imagine the nonmen ferrying them across in some way.
Improbable, yes, but not impossible. Access to soggomant would kind of allow them to make anything damn near indestructible. Did they bother to though? Probably not.
They have access to it, but not an unlimited supply. It's not a metal that originated on Earwa, and they'd be unlikely to strip away so much that it weakened the Arc.
Hmm, this has me wondering, the Quya that the Consult employed, were they from Golgotterath or Ishterebinth? Because if they were from the latter, they might all be dead now...
My assumption was both.
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Indeed, this is the most likely answer. Question I am now thinking of though, is if Kellhus could pick up a navy and toss it at a city, could he pick up the Ark and flip it over? Or toss it?
Kellhus channeling Yoda in Degobah... Except instead of a swamp, its Mordor, and instead of a puny ship its an Arc the size of Mt.Doom. So basically steroids Yoda in Middle Earth ... or maybe just Starkiller and the Destoryer, a much cleaner analogy.
As for Scylvendi, I'm thinking across the Leash. Magical support conveyance - most probably rafts of some sort. The hike around seems too vast, would take too long.
Granted, given the flimsy timeline, who knows what time of year it actually is. The Ordeal might still be on its way to Dagliash, even though the bomb already went off.... Or something. That's the problem with broken timelines, hard to keep things straight.
I think the Consult learn remarkably quickly. Them seeing Kellhus' little trick with the raft might have dire consequences later for the Ordeal.
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I think the issue at hand is less how it happens than what happens.
If we're running literary parallels, then the question is whether Cnaiur et al. are Conphas or Saubon. Regardless whether Achamian was present or not at Shimeh when the Nansur under Conphas showed up, Kellhus clearly planned on Saubon.
We've already wondered whether or not Kellhus knows about Cnaiur - which I think is a better tack. And Cnaiur is clearly an indeterminate factor; the Consult have been stringing him along, which means he's not in their pocket.
It seems pretty likely the Scylvendi are supposed to show up at Golgotterath after the Great Ordeal. The question is whether they are going to pin the Ordeal in against Golgotterath's anvil or help them...
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I think the issue at hand is less how it happens than what happens.
If we're running literary parallels, then the question is whether Cnaiur et al. are Conphas or Saubon. Regardless whether Achamian was present or not at Shimeh when the Nansur under Conphas showed up, Kellhus clearly planned on Saubon.
We've already wondered whether or not Kellhus knows about Cnaiur - which I think is a better tack. And Cnaiur is clearly an indeterminate factor; the Consult have been stringing him along, which means he's not in their pocket.
It seems pretty likely the Scylvendi are supposed to show up at Golgotterath after the Great Ordeal. The question is whether they are going to pin the Ordeal in against Golgotterath's anvil or help them...
I completely agree. And part of me thinks that Cnaiur won't be able to attack Proyas. I think Kellhus knows Cnaiur is still alive, because there would be no reason to think otherwise. Kellhus left Moe Sr. wounded and at the mercy of a chorae-wielding Cnaiur and some skin spies. I think the most probable eventuality would have been for Cnaiur's victory.
Here's a thought: suppose Kellhus is trying to close the world and establish himself as a god. The Scylvendi side with the GO to destroy Golgotterath. Kellhus becames THE god. Kellhus is now Cnaiur's god.
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I think the issue at hand is less how it happens than what happens.
If we're running literary parallels, then the question is whether Cnaiur et al. are Conphas or Saubon. Regardless whether Achamian was present or not at Shimeh when the Nansur under Conphas showed up, Kellhus clearly planned on Saubon.
We've already wondered whether or not Kellhus knows about Cnaiur - which I think is a better tack. And Cnaiur is clearly an indeterminate factor; the Consult have been stringing him along, which means he's not in their pocket.
It seems pretty likely the Scylvendi are supposed to show up at Golgotterath after the Great Ordeal. The question is whether they are going to pin the Ordeal in against Golgotterath's anvil or help them...
I completely agree. And part of me thinks that Cnaiur won't be able to attack Proyas. I think Kellhus knows Cnaiur is still alive, because there would be no reason to think otherwise. Kellhus left Moe Sr. wounded and at the mercy of a chorae-wielding Cnaiur and some skin spies. I think the most probable eventuality would have been for Cnaiur's victory.
Here's a thought: suppose Kellhus is trying to close the world and establish himself as a god. The Scylvendi side with the GO to destroy Golgotterath. Kellhus becames THE god. Kellhus is now Cnaiur's god.
I've always sort of projected Conan onto Cnaiur and can't imagine him giving a crap about any God. I'm wondering if his motivation to lead the Scylvendi to help Golgatterath *was* the promise of sacking Ishual. Now that it's out of the picture, it seems like as likely that he'd go against the Consult for breaking their promise.
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I've always sort of projected Conan onto Cnaiur and can't imagine him giving a crap about any God. I'm wondering if his motivation to lead the Scylvendi to help Golgatterath *was* the promise of sacking Ishual. Now that it's out of the picture, it seems like as likely that he'd go against the Consult for breaking their promise.
I don't know, Aurang is usually not a liar. Chances are Cnaiur just figured he would get to and now realizes he won't. However, I doubt if he really cares about Proyas or the Great Ordeal, he just wants to kill Kellhus. I doubt if he'd let Proyas stand between him and that...
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I've always sort of projected Conan onto Cnaiur and can't imagine him giving a crap about any God. I'm wondering if his motivation to lead the Scylvendi to help Golgatterath *was* the promise of sacking Ishual. Now that it's out of the picture, it seems like as likely that he'd go against the Consult for breaking their promise.
I don't know, Aurang is usually not a liar. Chances are Cnaiur just figured he would get to and now realizes he won't. However, I doubt if he really cares about Proyas or the Great Ordeal, he just wants to kill Kellhus. I doubt if he'd let Proyas stand between him and that...
Well, I'm wondering if Kellhus will even be there when the Scylvendi show up.
Cnaiur tells someone in the PoN that he believes Inrithi carry a blood-guilt for killing his god. So I do think he believes in one. I do agree that sacking Ishual was probably his price for helping the Consult, so it will be interesting to see where he goes from here now that he knows it's gone.
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Well, it makes heart sing that Cnaüir is alive. Not how I thought it would happen, but awesome nonetheless. Wow, is he damned or is he damned? I loved the description of the swazond smoking also.
As far as his age and shape that he is in, I simply chalk it up to his relentless attitude and his thirst for vengeance. While I'd love to see him turn into a "hero", I don't buy that happening. Once, the breaker of horses and men has sworn an oath, that is his mission. He wants to kill Kellhus, and while I don't believe he gives two shits about what the Consult wants or his damnation, he's not gonna suddenly realize that Kellhus is doing the "right" thing. If anything, I can see a great confrontation between him and Moe Jr. That be great.
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Yeah - Cnaiur tells Kellhus in TDTCB that the Scylvendi believe the Inrithi killed their god, Lokung, whom they made a pact with when Lokung "existed" (?), and now have sworn to murder Inrithi for their Dead-God. Bakker, I believe, semi-verifies on ZTS that Lokung is the No-God.
Cnaiur is nothing but unpredictable, though, right? Breaker-of-Horses-and-Men is back for a few pages and everyone forgets that he is useful because a Dunyain couldn't predict him ;).
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Cnaiur is nothing but unpredictable, though, right? Breaker-of-Horses-and-Men is back for a few pages and everyone forgets that he is useful because a Dunyain couldn't predict him ;).
+1, but do anywhere in your soul, believe that he would go back over to Kellhus? Proyas, maybe.....doubtful. I believe vengeance is what he wants.
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I believe Cnaiur will do anything he wants because reason is so long out the window with him :).