The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => General Earwa => General Q&A => Topic started by: Sillyfish on April 11, 2018, 08:08:06 am

Title: The Inchoroi and their minds. (Possible Spoilers)
Post by: Sillyfish on April 11, 2018, 08:08:06 am: (click to show/hide)
I know I'm not the most perceptive of readers. Sometimes I have to reread something a couple of times before I grasp the hidden meaning behind things. Combine this with Bakkers ability to hide meaning behind words and you have me absolutely loving his books but not understanding everything the depth of things the first time round. So, having said that it's entirely possible that I just missed the explanation for this if it was in the books. (I'm also rereading, so yay for that.)

My query is simple: The Nonmen have been around for so long that they lose their memories of things that aren't marked by trauma and emotional agony. Why do the Inchoroi, who are significantly older (as far as I understand) not likewise lose their minds?

Or is it that they already have and are driven by the memory and knowledge of damnation - the most traumatic thing of all?

Edited: PLaced everything in a spoiler tag and rewrote the thread title. Just in case someone who hasn't discovered this information yet comes across it.
Title: Re: The Inchoroi and their minds. (Possible Spoilers)
Post by: H on April 11, 2018, 10:56:58 am: Welcome to the forum. Have you read TUC already?

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It's an interesting question, but I think the simplest and so probably the most probable answer is that the Inchoroi were simply "better built" for the rigors of immortality. Remember, as we learned in TUC, the Inchoroi are just yet another weapons race. It would certainly be disastrous if the Inchoroi forgot their mission along the way, so a long memory was certainly something the Progenitors would have looked to have as a feature even if Ark and the Inverse Fire could keep them in line.
Title: Re: The Inchoroi and their minds. (Possible Spoilers)
Post by: SmilerLoki on April 11, 2018, 02:01:35 pm: Quote from: H on April 11, 2018, 10:56:58 am
Welcome to the forum. Have you read TUC already?

(click to show/hide)
It's an interesting question, but I think the simplest and so probably the most probable answer is that the Inchoroi were simply "better built" for the rigors of immortality. Remember, as we learned in TUC, the Inchoroi are just yet another weapons race. It would certainly be disastrous if the Inchoroi forgot their mission along the way, so a long memory was certainly something the Progenitors would have looked to have as a feature even if Ark and the Inverse Fire could keep them in line.
(click to show/hide)
That being said, even Aurang and Aurax grew decrepit (https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/6r3hba/unholy_consultation_r_scott_bakker_bares_the_soul/dl292yp/) with the passing of millennia:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker
he has grown decrepit over the ages, the same as Aurax.
Title: Re: The Inchoroi and their minds. (Possible Spoilers)
Post by: H on April 11, 2018, 02:05:09 pm: Quote from: SmilerLoki on April 11, 2018, 02:01:35 pm
(click to show/hide)
That being said, even Aurang and Aurax grew decrepit (https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/6r3hba/unholy_consultation_r_scott_bakker_bares_the_soul/dl292yp/) with the passing of millennia:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker
he has grown decrepit over the ages, the same as Aurax.

(click to show/hide)
Yeah, unfortunately we can't know how much of that was "natural" attrition and how much was due to the grafts. I'd bet most of it was because of the Grafts, "natural state" Inchoroi might have actually been functionally immortal.
Title: Re: The Inchoroi and their minds. (Possible Spoilers)
Post by: SmilerLoki on April 11, 2018, 02:11:09 pm: Quote from: H on April 11, 2018, 02:05:09 pm
(click to show/hide)
Yeah, unfortunately we can't know how much of that was "natural" attrition and how much was due to the grafts. I'd bet most of it was because of the Grafts, "natural state" Inchoroi might have actually been functionally immortal.
(click to show/hide)
The Grafting is such a moot topic... They could have routinely rebuilt themselves on every planet they visited, for all we know. Or they resorted to it only on Earwa.
Title: Re: The Inchoroi and their minds. (Possible Spoilers)
Post by: H on April 11, 2018, 02:15:10 pm: Quote from: SmilerLoki on April 11, 2018, 02:11:09 pm
Quote from: H on April 11, 2018, 02:05:09 pm
(click to show/hide)
Yeah, unfortunately we can't know how much of that was "natural" attrition and how much was due to the grafts. I'd bet most of it was because of the Grafts, "natural state" Inchoroi might have actually been functionally immortal.
(click to show/hide)
The Grafting is such a moot topic... They could have routinely rebuilt themselves on every planet they visited, for all we know. Or they resorted to it only on Earwa.

A fair point, unfortunately we'll likely never know.
Title: Re: The Inchoroi and their minds. (Possible Spoilers)
Post by: TLEILAXU on April 11, 2018, 04:36:54 pm: Quote from: Sillyfish on April 11, 2018, 08:08:06 am
(click to show/hide)
I know I'm not the most perceptive of readers. Sometimes I have to reread something a couple of times before I grasp the hidden meaning behind things. Combine this with Bakkers ability to hide meaning behind words and you have me absolutely loving his books but not understanding everything the depth of things the first time round. So, having said that it's entirely possible that I just missed the explanation for this if it was in the books. (I'm also rereading, so yay for that.)

My query is simple: The Nonmen have been around for so long that they lose their memories of things that aren't marked by trauma and emotional agony. Why do the Inchoroi, who are significantly older (as far as I understand) not likewise lose their minds?

Or is it that they already have and are driven by the memory and knowledge of damnation - the most traumatic thing of all?

Edited: PLaced everything in a spoiler tag and rewrote the thread title. Just in case someone who hasn't discovered this information yet comes across it.
As H said, they might simply be built better for long life spans, but then again, we do see evidence of them losing their memories. I cannot remember which book it is, but in one of them we have Aurang musing over his past and although he can remember having been on previous worlds, he cannot actually remember being there, IIRC.

Edit: Alright, here it is, in the beginning of chapter 13 of The Unholy Consult:
Quote
Surfaces vast and gold soared and plunged about the Inchoroi, who appeared sepia for reflected light, like something carved from an apple. He hung out from one arm, clawed feet braced against the Horn's impenetrable skin, so high his lungs ached for the the emptiness of the air. Though he had been Grafted for this world, the frame of his body remembered its distant womb, or at least held fast some portion of it. His soul, however, recalled nothing of his origin, unless solace could be called recollection. he dreamed it on occasion, especially when novelty had commanded his day, as if all those ancient experiences, hidden as they were, remained essential to his understanding. But he could never remember these dreams. He knew only that contentment hummed deep within, hanging thus, stirring him to wonder at worlds with thinner air.
Title: Re: The Inchoroi and their minds. (Possible Spoilers)
Post by: natanaj on April 11, 2018, 11:20:06 pm: Quote from: H on April 11, 2018, 02:15:10 pm
Quote from: SmilerLoki on April 11, 2018, 02:11:09 pm
Quote from: H on April 11, 2018, 02:05:09 pm
(click to show/hide)
Yeah, unfortunately we can't know how much of that was "natural" attrition and how much was due to the grafts. I'd bet most of it was because of the Grafts, "natural state" Inchoroi might have actually been functionally immortal.
(click to show/hide)
The Grafting is such a moot topic... They could have routinely rebuilt themselves on every planet they visited, for all we know. Or they resorted to it only on Earwa.

A fair point, unfortunately we'll likely never know.
We might know. Araux is still alive. Maybe the mutilated will make use of him

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Title: Re: The Inchoroi and their minds. (Possible Spoilers)
Post by: Sillyfish on April 11, 2018, 11:49:49 pm: Thank you for the welcome. :)

Yes, I have read all the books and am eagerly awaiting for the new novel Bakker is working on currently. So many questions!

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I agree that perhaps the Progenitors simply perhaps engineered them to endure the rigors of time better than natural races elevated to the heights of immortality. However having been reminded by TLEILAXU about Aurang's mental degradation I think my question may have been answered. They may not be Erratic like the nonmen, but apparently they do forget everything over time with only his subconscious dredging things up during dreams, ones which he never recalls upon waking anyway.

I hope to learn more of the Inchoroi. The whole Progenitors thing is fascinating. I -love- old stuff shrouded in mystery.