The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The No-God => Topic started by: profgrape on May 25, 2018, 09:27:53 pm

Title: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: profgrape on May 25, 2018, 09:27:53 pm
At some point, Bakker described Atrithau as something we'll visit in future books.  Which now means TNG.  And given the parallels between Akka and Seswatha's roles in their respective Apocolypses, if we ever see Atrithau it seems like it would be through Akka's eyes. 

I could see Esme and Mimara will end up crossing the Leash, skirting the Demua mountains (perhaps picking up a certain crab-handed boy along the way) and heading for Atrithau. 

Of course, Atrithau will be in chaos.  Their king was killed by Cnaiur and the Scylvendi at the Battle of Eels just a few months prior to the NG's advent.  And like Seswatha, Akka will come in and fail spectacularly at rallying the troops.

The question of where they go next is where things get interesting.

If they want to head for the Three Seas, they'd either have to cross the Jiunati Steppe (which might be fine as the Scylvendi warriors are elsewhere) or head for the pass into Galeoth -- both treacherous options.   But would Esme even want to do that after witnessing the empire's literal collapse in Momemn?  Wouldn't they want to head someplace where they could at least mount some sort of resistance? 

Instead of the TS, they might leave Atrithau, head south, skirt west of the Sea of Jorua and then cross the unnamed tributary into High Holy Zeum!
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on May 25, 2018, 09:53:22 pm
I think it's very likely we'll see Atrithau early(ish?) in TNG, for all the reasons you pointed out. Things over there do seem to have been in quite a bit of disarray even before the start of the Second Apocalypse...it's likely whatever they manage to accomplish there won't last for long.

I have a guess which may be entirely wishful thinking - they might go to Conriya at some point (geography-wise people, feel free to tell me if I'm being a complete idiot here). Esmenet has already been established as trusting Proyas' wife (now widow) Miramis, and actually thought of finding refuge there following Maithanet's coup:
Quote from: TWLW, Chapter 14
She understood the force of his argument--not a day passed where she failed to inventory all those she thought she could trust. House Nersei, in particular, in Aöknyssus. Surely she could depend on Queen Miramis--Saubon's niece and Proyas's wife--to at least give her sanctuary, if not prosecute the interests of her family.
Of course, Miramis might not be so willing to help out the widow of the man who set up her husband to be executed as a traitor (especially if they only go there after months have passed and Mirathais and other possible survivors (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2670.0) have had time to take news back to Miramis). We don't know what Miramis' relationship with Proyas was like (considering he wasn't even around most of the time), but I'd be very surprised if there weren't at least quite a few people in Conriya who refused to believe or at least were strongly suspicious of the accusations against Proyas. He seems to have been a well-loved king.

On Zeüm - I think Akka and co. may not go there for quite a while, but we'll get an idea of what is going on there before that via one or more new POVs (Likaro, another Mbimayu sorcerer, maybe even the Satakhan or any of his surviving family members before they get murdered by the Malowebi-faced demon...).
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: H on May 29, 2018, 02:18:07 pm
Well, I'd think it would be nearly impossible for Akka, Mimara, Esmenet and the baby to foot-slog it all the way back, now that there is no Ordeal to draw the Sranc to it.  It would also be a bad idea to try to cut through Scylvendi territory.  So, I think it will have to either be a deus ex machina to get them out, or that they somehow carve out a hiding somewhere they can get to.  The last option would probably be finding some actual people along the coast who would sail them south.
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on May 29, 2018, 02:29:46 pm
Well, I'd think it would be nearly impossible for Akka, Mimara, Esmenet and the baby to foot-slog it all the way back, now that there is no Ordeal to draw the Sranc to it.  It would also be a bad idea to try to cut through Scylvendi territory.  So, I think it will have to either be a deus ex machina to get them out, or that they somehow carve out a hiding somewhere they can get to.  The last option would probably be finding some actual people along the coast who would sail them south.

For the time being at least, hiding seems like the best option. The No-God is not that likely to get to them if they stay away from densely populated areas. (Of course, they can't do so forever...)
I'd think that most of the capable Scylvendi warriors were with Cnaiür and would currently still be away from their territory (the ones that are still alive, that is)...but it'd still be a bad idea for Akka and co. to go through the Steppe, yes.
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: TaoHorror on May 29, 2018, 03:14:45 pm
Did we see them "leave" at the end of TUC? I don't recall. Another option is to enter The Ark.
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: profgrape on May 29, 2018, 03:36:27 pm
Well, I'd think it would be nearly impossible for Akka, Mimara, Esmenet and the baby to foot-slog it all the way back, now that there is no Ordeal to draw the Sranc to it.  It would also be a bad idea to try to cut through Scylvendi territory.  So, I think it will have to either be a deus ex machina to get them out, or that they somehow carve out a hiding somewhere they can get to.  The last option would probably be finding some actual people along the coast who would sail them south.

For the time being at least, hiding seems like the best option. The No-God is not that likely to get to them if they stay away from densely populated areas. (Of course, they can't do so forever...)
I'd think that most of the capable Scylvendi warriors were with Cnaiür and would currently still be away from their territory (the ones that are still alive, that is)...but it'd still be a bad idea for Akka and co. to go through the Steppe, yes.

A bad idea for sure.  But perhaps the least bad given the alternatives?

@H that's an excellent point about not having the Ordeal to draw the Sranc.  While a big chunk of the Norsorai Sranc population died at Dagliash, there are I'm sure plenty of them left, especially along the Demua mountains. 

Short of a deus ex machina (Zeumi corsairs searching for their prince, for example), the only thing I could imagine is that Akka and co shadow the Scylvendi back, perhaps with the Excursi in tow?  Or one of the Forsaken teaches Akka how to weave a Gateway.
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: SmilerLoki on May 29, 2018, 03:47:34 pm
Or one of the Forsaken teaches Akka how to weave a Gateway.
And then gets mysteriously killed so we can speculate about that endlessly?
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: profgrape on May 29, 2018, 03:49:11 pm
Or one of the Forsaken teaches Akka how to weave a Gateway.
And then gets mysteriously killed so we can speculate about that endlessly?
"...you?"
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on May 29, 2018, 04:55:31 pm
A bad idea for sure.  But perhaps the least bad given the alternatives?

@H that's an excellent point about not having the Ordeal to draw the Sranc.  While a big chunk of the Norsorai Sranc population died at Dagliash, there are I'm sure plenty of them left, especially along the Demua mountains. 

Short of a deus ex machina (Zeumi corsairs searching for their prince, for example), the only thing I could imagine is that Akka and co shadow the Scylvendi back, perhaps with the Excursi in tow?  Or one of the Forsaken teaches Akka how to weave a Gateway.

Hey, when you're in the middle of an Apocalypse, "least bad" is pretty much the same as "good".

There are just so many Sranc around Eärwa that even accounting for a) those killed by the Ordeal and b) those that the No-God will take along to wreck cities, there will likely still be more than enough around to pose a significant threat.

Or maybe Akka suddenly realizes he had the power of the Metagnosis all along. (Seswatha power boost?) For a deus ex machina, it's not a completely implausible one...
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: profgrape on May 29, 2018, 05:40:55 pm
A bad idea for sure.  But perhaps the least bad given the alternatives?

@H that's an excellent point about not having the Ordeal to draw the Sranc.  While a big chunk of the Norsorai Sranc population died at Dagliash, there are I'm sure plenty of them left, especially along the Demua mountains. 

Short of a deus ex machina (Zeumi corsairs searching for their prince, for example), the only thing I could imagine is that Akka and co shadow the Scylvendi back, perhaps with the Excursi in tow?  Or one of the Forsaken teaches Akka how to weave a Gateway.

Hey, when you're in the middle of an Apocalypse, "least bad" is pretty much the same as "good".

There are just so many Sranc around Eärwa that even accounting for a) those killed by the Ordeal and b) those that the No-God will take along to wreck cities, there will likely still be more than enough around to pose a significant threat.

Or maybe Akka suddenly realizes he had the power of the Metagnosis all along. (Seswatha power boost?) For a deus ex machina, it's not a completely implausible one...

Or Dream-Kellhus teaches him the Metagnosis?  But is this even possible?  As far as we know, only Kellhus, Serwa and Saccarees have successfully cast a Metagnostic Cant -- a Dunyain prodigy, a half-Dunyain prodigy and a human prodigy.  Akka's an accomplished sorcerer in his own right (a War Cant master or something) so maybe he could grasp the Metagnosis if he has the right teacher?
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on May 29, 2018, 06:11:29 pm
Or Dream-Kellhus teaches him the Metagnosis?  But is this even possible?  As far as we know, only Kellhus, Serwa and Saccarees have successfully cast a Metagnostic Cant -- a Dunyain prodigy, a half-Dunyain prodigy and a human prodigy.  Akka's an accomplished sorcerer in his own right (a War Cant master or something) so maybe he could grasp the Metagnosis if he has the right teacher?

That's why it would be a deus ex machina, it doesn't seem like it'd be possible. ;)

Dream Kellhus would probably be the best option in this hypothetical situation.
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: TaoHorror on May 29, 2018, 06:19:12 pm
Or Dream-Kellhus teaches him the Metagnosis?  But is this even possible?  As far as we know, only Kellhus, Serwa and Saccarees have successfully cast a Metagnostic Cant -- a Dunyain prodigy, a half-Dunyain prodigy and a human prodigy.  Akka's an accomplished sorcerer in his own right (a War Cant master or something) so maybe he could grasp the Metagnosis if he has the right teacher?

That's why it would be a deus ex machina, it doesn't seem like it'd be possible. ;)

Dream Kellhus would probably be the best option in this hypothetical situation.

Or the right motivation ... TNG on your tail may well spark the creative juices and next thing you know you're back in TTS. Kellhus figured it out facing down 3 Cishaurim.
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on May 29, 2018, 06:35:52 pm
Or the right motivation ... TNG on your tail may well spark the creative juices and next thing you know you're back in TTS. Kellhus figured it out facing down 3 Cishaurim.

If this is going to be a "figure out your superpowers via immediate threat" kind of situation, I think Sranc are more likely than the actual No-God. Unless, of course, they do decide to go straight to a densely populated area, which doesn't seem to be the best choice, as has been discussed.
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: profgrape on May 29, 2018, 07:28:44 pm
Or the right motivation ... TNG on your tail may well spark the creative juices and next thing you know you're back in TTS. Kellhus figured it out facing down 3 Cishaurim.

If this is going to be a "figure out your superpowers via immediate threat" kind of situation, I think Sranc are more likely than the actual No-God. Unless, of course, they do decide to go straight to a densely populated area, which doesn't seem to be the best choice, as has been discussed.
The Gnosis doesn't strike me as the sort of thing that you discover as much as something that's studied.  The idea of spontaneously gaining new powers in times of stress is more in line with the Psukhe.  Although now that I think about it, Akka stumbling on the Psukhe sounds really cool... :-)

I'm guessing that by the time Kellhus first utters the Cant of Translocation to teleport from Kyudea toward Shimeh, he'd already worked out the mechanics.  The Cant of Calling (basis for the CoT) is the first thing he insists Akka teach him.  And during the same session, he asks about the second inutteral.    So he had a few months to ponder at least.
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on May 29, 2018, 07:41:48 pm
The Gnosis doesn't strike me as the sort of thing that you discover as much as something that's studied.  The idea of spontaneously gaining new powers in times of stress is more in line with the Psukhe.  Although now that I think about it, Akka stumbling on the Psukhe sounds really cool... :-)

I'm guessing that by the time Kellhus first utters the Cant of Translocation to teleport from Kyudea toward Shimeh, he'd already worked out the mechanics.  The Cant of Calling (basis for the CoT) is the first thing he insists Akka teach him.  And during the same session, he asks about the second inutteral.    So he had a few months to ponder at least.

Sure, I do agree with you there, I just came up with this as an option following the "deus ex machina" train of thought. I don't think this will actually happen in future books (I'd be quite surprised if it did). Unless he is taught the Metagnosis by say, Serwa, Saccarees or Dream Kellhus over a certain period of time during the course of the Apocalypse.

But yes, it would make more sense for an "emergency activation of superpowers" to happen with the Psûkhe. Speaking of which, we still have a convenient Cishaurim somewhere in the Three Seas that has not been confirmed as being dead... ;)
Not sure if we'll ever see someone use those two different branches of sorcery in the story... In theory, someone could (most likely a Dûnyain or half-Dûnyain)...in practice, not that easy. Everything is possible in the chaos of the Apocalypse, though, it's not like anyone is going to hunt down Akka the Wizard anytime soon.
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: H on May 30, 2018, 11:49:41 am
Everything is possible in the chaos of the Apocalypse, though, it's not like anyone is going to hunt down Akka the Wizard anytime soon.

Indeed, I mean, what is left in the Three Seas to return to?

If Akka's aim is to be a "modern day Seswatha" I don't know that there is much left in in the former Empire.  I mean, I always hypothesized that the Great Ordeal robbing the Empire of it's strength was part of it's narrative role.  Now, it is clear why.  So, what's left?  No nobility, no military strength.

Zeüm has it's own troubles.  The Fanim are probably the best hope, really.  Perhaps that is the role of Meppa and so Mimara.  He "vision" is probably as close to a real prophet of the Solitary God as has ever existed (Fane included).
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on May 30, 2018, 12:38:48 pm
Indeed, I mean, what is left in the Three Seas to return to?

If Akka's aim is to be a "modern day Seswatha" I don't know that there is much left in in the former Empire.  I mean, I always hypothesized that the Great Ordeal robbing the Empire of it's strength was part of it's narrative role.  Now, it is clear why.  So, what's left?  No nobility, no military strength.

Zeüm has it's own troubles.  The Fanim are probably the best hope, really.  Perhaps that is the role of Meppa and so Mimara.  He "vision" is probably as close to a real prophet of the Solitary God as has ever existed (Fane included).


There's still a fair chance that they'll return, find what people they can to join them (before the No-God gets to them) and then move everyone to a safer place. Maybe Zeüm, assuming someone can handle the Malowebi demon (whose only target was the royal family - granted, this is likely going to result in many casualties among the Mbimayu as they try to stop him).

That's a good point about the Great Ordeal. Always a risk when you take almost all of the capable warriors and mages available along with you (not that Kellhus cared). This is more of a problem in the case of the sorcerers/witches, as it seemed like Kellhus really took almost every single one of them along with him on the Ordeal (presumably even not "almost" in the case of the witches, I doubt there were any left behind).
I figure that the only sorcerers potentially left by now in the Three Seas (not counting the ones who might have escaped the "salt and butchery" at the end) would be either elderly ones no longer physically capable of travelling with the Ordeal (such as say, Nautzera, if he's still alive?) or very young, very unexperienced (likely not even fully trained) ones.
As armies go, they are very depleted on that regard, but then I remembered Nurbanu JoeZe led a contingent of Jekki in the Ordeal. I'd guess that said contingent wasn't particularly large, so maybe going to Jekhia wouldn't be a waste of time? (again, geography, etc., I might be spouting out complete nonsense)

I still wonder how they're going to meet up with Meppa (or Meppa with them). That will be an interesting meeting. Usually a Cishaurim would not even think of working with the likes of Akka and co. (not to mention the woman who directly attacked him with a Chorae...), but these are desperate circumstances, after all.
I can't even remember where Meppa was the last time we saw him...was it Iothiah? Could Kellhus have "stashed" him somewhere else before he went to get Esmenet and Kelmomas at Momemn?
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: profgrape on May 30, 2018, 03:12:29 pm
Indeed, I mean, what is left in the Three Seas to return to?

If Akka's aim is to be a "modern day Seswatha" I don't know that there is much left in in the former Empire.  I mean, I always hypothesized that the Great Ordeal robbing the Empire of it's strength was part of it's narrative role.  Now, it is clear why.  So, what's left?  No nobility, no military strength.

Zeüm has it's own troubles.  The Fanim are probably the best hope, really.  Perhaps that is the role of Meppa and so Mimara.  He "vision" is probably as close to a real prophet of the Solitary God as has ever existed (Fane included).


There's still a fair chance that they'll return, find what people they can to join them (before the No-God gets to them) and then move everyone to a safer place. Maybe Zeüm, assuming someone can handle the Malowebi demon (whose only target was the royal family - granted, this is likely going to result in many casualties among the Mbimayu as they try to stop him).

That's a good point about the Great Ordeal. Always a risk when you take almost all of the capable warriors and mages available along with you (not that Kellhus cared). This is more of a problem in the case of the sorcerers/witches, as it seemed like Kellhus really took almost every single one of them along with him on the Ordeal (presumably even not "almost" in the case of the witches, I doubt there were any left behind).
I figure that the only sorcerers potentially left by now in the Three Seas (not counting the ones who might have escaped the "salt and butchery" at the end) would be either elderly ones no longer physically capable of travelling with the Ordeal (such as say, Nautzera, if he's still alive?) or very young, very unexperienced (likely not even fully trained) ones.
As armies go, they are very depleted on that regard, but then I remembered Nurbanu JoeZe led a contingent of Jekki in the Ordeal. I'd guess that said contingent wasn't particularly large, so maybe going to Jekhia wouldn't be a waste of time? (again, geography, etc., I might be spouting out complete nonsense)

I still wonder how they're going to meet up with Meppa (or Meppa with them). That will be an interesting meeting. Usually a Cishaurim would not even think of working with the likes of Akka and co. (not to mention the woman who directly attacked him with a Chorae...), but these are desperate circumstances, after all.
I can't even remember where Meppa was the last time we saw him...was it Iothiah? Could Kellhus have "stashed" him somewhere else before he went to get Esmenet and Kelmomas at Momemn?
Meppa was last seen in Fanayal's tent outside of Momemn.  Which shortly thereafter was quaked and flooded.  But I agree that he still has a part in this story and really like the idea of him being a latter-day Fane. 

On the Malowebi-demon causing trouble for Zeum, I'm not so sure it's going to happen.  For one, it's a really long way from Momemn to Zeum -- thousands of miles overland through inhospitable territory or a fairly long sea voyage.  And for two, who's to say whether the Cant binding head to body would last beyond Kellhus' death -- it seemed like Iyokus' death effectively freed the Ciphrang he'd summoned at Golgatterath. 

That's not to say all will be well in Zeum.  The NG's presence means that Kellhus was right about the threat from Golgatterath.  And that their Successor-Prince is either dead or in great peril.  I'm actually curious whether the NG's advent would cause Zeum to send ships to try and rescue Zsoronga?  Could be how Akka and co make it to Zeum.
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on May 30, 2018, 03:25:10 pm
Meppa was last seen in Fanayal's tent outside of Momemn.  Which shortly thereafter was quaked and flooded.  But I agree that he still has a part in this story and really like the idea of him being a latter-day Fane.

Good to know I was completely mistaken. ;) But yes, Meppa has to return at some point. Him being Fane 2.0 is just icing on the cake, there's still so much that could be done with him.


On the Malowebi-demon causing trouble for Zeum, I'm not so sure it's going to happen.  For one, it's a really long way from Momemn to Zeum -- thousands of miles overland through inhospitable territory or a fairly long sea voyage.  And for two, who's to say whether the Cant binding head to body would last beyond Kellhus' death -- it seemed like Iyokus' death effectively freed the Ciphrang he'd summoned at Golgatterath. 

That's not to say all will be well in Zeum.  The NG's presence means that Kellhus was right about the threat from Golgatterath.  And that their Successor-Prince is either dead or in great peril.  I'm actually curious whether the NG's advent would cause Zeum to send ships to try and rescue Zsoronga?  Could be how Akka and co make it to Zeum.

While I agree on that something could happen to the Malowebi demon before he even got to Zeüm (that journey will indeed last a while - unless Kellhus made it so that he could travel faster than a human or something), I don't think Kellhus' death effectively nullifies him. Malowebi's own severed head still retained awareness after Kellhus' death, so who's to say that the demon wouldn't remain active too?
On Iyokus and the Ciphrang, it was not as much Iyokus' death freeing the Ciphrang as it was the weakened barrier between the Outside and the real world (due to Golgotterath being a topos) leading to the Ciphrang escaping Iyokus' control and killing him (and now I sound like Bakker with the whole "X was not as much Y as it was Z" thing...).

No place is safe, but I think Zeüm may remain out of immediate peril (from the No-God, not counting the demon here) for quite a while. The No-God is going to target the Three Seas first.
Zsoronga is dead, and I think that Zsoronga's father was fully aware this was a definite possibility when he surrendered him as a hostage and then sent an emissary to deal with Kellhus' most outspoken enemy. I doubt anyone is going to come back for him, he was the sacrifice the Satakhan had to make (and he does have at least one other son to succeed him, Malowebi refers to Zsoronga as "the Satakhan's eldest son" at some point in TUC).
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: TheCulminatingApe on May 30, 2018, 07:02:46 pm
The idea of spontaneously gaining new powers in times of stress is more in line with the Psukhe.  Although now that I think about it, Akka stumbling on the Psukhe sounds really cool... :-)

That would be great ;D

Wouldn't they want to head someplace where they could at least mount some sort of resistance? 

Instead of the TS, they might leave Atrithau, head south, skirt west of the Sea of Jorua and then cross the unnamed tributary into High Holy Zeum!

Zeum would be the obvious candidate for any resistance on a large scale, as it is the likely the only place with any significant organisational structure left.  Also, I want to to see Zeum :D

While I agree on that something could happen to the Malowebi demon before he even got to Zeüm (that journey will indeed last a while - unless Kellhus made it so that he could travel faster than a human or something), I don't think Kellhus' death effectively nullifies him. Malowebi's own severed head still retained awareness after Kellhus' death, so who's to say that the demon wouldn't remain active too?

The demon was presumably sent for a reason, which must have been something other than simple revenge.  I doubt Kellhus would be that bothered by the Satakhan breaking a treaty, when the Ordeal is within striking distance of Golgotterath.

Just a hunch, but I think there is something significant in Zeum
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on May 30, 2018, 08:03:05 pm
Zeum would be the obvious candidate for any resistance on a large scale, as it is the likely the only place with any significant organisational structure left.  Also, I want to to see Zeum :D

We all want to, and fortunately odds are good that we're going to get our wish. :)


The demon was presumably sent for a reason, which must have been something other than simple revenge.  I doubt Kellhus would be that bothered by the Satakhan breaking a treaty, when the Ordeal is within striking distance of Golgotterath.

Just a hunch, but I think there is something significant in Zeum

I could see Kellhus doing it just for revenge, "decapitating" Zeüm by getting the whole royal family killed. He still went back to kill Fanayal and Psatma Nannaferi, so why not the Satakhan and his family as well? I might be in the minority here, of course.

Something like sorcerous secrets, is that what you were thinking of?
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: H on May 30, 2018, 08:22:53 pm
I could see Kellhus doing it just for revenge, "decapitating" Zeüm by getting the whole royal family killed. He still went back to kill Fanayal and Psatma Nannaferi, so why not the Satakhan and his family as well? I might be in the minority here, of course.

Basically all the "old powers" in Eärwa are dead.  The Great Ordeal removed all the nobility from the Three Seas.  Fanayal dies at the head of the Fanim.  And so Kellhus orders the killing of the power that be in Zeüm.  It's a "whole new" world out there now.
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: MSJ on May 30, 2018, 10:54:06 pm
Concerning demon Malowebi, Kellhus specifically told him to end the ruler of Zeum's line (family). Nothing more, nothing less. Unless he can communicate by some other means, I don't see demon Malowebi doing anymore than Kellhus bid. After all, thats how all of the Ciphrang Ioyukus summoned behaved. They follow orders to a T, and because they want released back to the Outside. They hate being in the World.

Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: profgrape on May 31, 2018, 01:15:35 am
Concerning demon Malowebi, Kellhus specifically told him to end the ruler of Zeum's line (family). Nothing more, nothing less. Unless he can communicate by some other means, I don't see demon Malowebi doing anymore than Kellhus bid. After all, thats how all of the Ciphrang Ioyukus summoned behaved. They follow orders to a T, and because they want released back to the Outside. They hate being in the World.



Random question: is Likaro in the line of Nganka'kull?  Or are cousins exempt?  Because if not, "curse Likaro" is going to take on a whole new meaning.
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on May 31, 2018, 01:30:53 am
Basically all the "old powers" in Eärwa are dead.  The Great Ordeal removed all the nobility from the Three Seas.  Fanayal dies at the head of the Fanim.  And so Kellhus orders the killing of the power that be in Zeüm.  It's a "whole new" world out there now.

Very good point.


Concerning demon Malowebi, Kellhus specifically told him to end the ruler of Zeum's line (family). Nothing more, nothing less. Unless he can communicate by some other means, I don't see demon Malowebi doing anymore than Kellhus bid. After all, thats how all of the Ciphrang Ioyukus summoned behaved. They follow orders to a T, and because they want released back to the Outside. They hate being in the World.

Yes, but the Mbimayu are like the Zeümi Imperial Saik. They will not just stand by and let the royal family get slaughtered. That's why I think their numbers will take quite a hit as well.


Random question: is Likaro in the line of Nganka'kull?  Or are cousins exempt?  Because if not, "curse Likaro" is going to take on a whole new meaning.

Now, that is an interesting question. I remember Likaro and Malowebi being referred to as cousins of Nganka'kull as well, and I think we have several options here:
-"cousins" is used as a term of respect or something here, like Calmemunis calling Xerius "uncle" in TDTCB, and is therefore not literal;
-you can interpret "the line of Nganka'kull" as the man himself and his descendants, which would mean Likaro will be fine unless he interferes;
-"the line of Nganka'kull" means "every single person related to Nganka'kull", which is bad news for Likaro.
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: TheCulminatingApe on May 31, 2018, 07:56:13 pm
I could see Kellhus doing it just for revenge, "decapitating" Zeüm by getting the whole royal family killed. He still went back to kill Fanayal and Psatma Nannaferi, so why not the Satakhan and his family as well? I might be in the minority here, of course.

Seems less of a direct threat.  Malowebi was just observing as I recall.
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: TheCulminatingApe on May 31, 2018, 08:01:32 pm
Concerning demon Malowebi, Kellhus specifically told him to end the ruler of Zeum's line (family). Nothing more, nothing less. Unless he can communicate by some other means, I don't see demon Malowebi doing anymore than Kellhus bid. After all, thats how all of the Ciphrang Ioyukus summoned behaved. They follow orders to a T, and because they want released back to the Outside. They hate being in the World.



Random question: is Likaro in the line of Nganka'kull?  Or are cousins exempt?  Because if not, "curse Likaro" is going to take on a whole new meaning.

I'd take the line of Nganka'kull as people descended from him (kids and grandkids) - i.e. there's a line back.  So if the demon follows instructions to the letter, the whole family wouldn't necessarily get killed.  Zsoronga might in trouble though if he survives the Ordeal.

We are assuming that the line of Nganka'kull doesn't have some specific in-world meaning
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on May 31, 2018, 08:11:26 pm
Seems less of a direct threat.  Malowebi was just observing as I recall.

Sure, but the Satakhan still sent Malowebi to Fanayal after he'd made a treaty with Kellhus and sent his own son to the Ordeal as a hostage. Kellhus does have a point here. A less direct threat is still a threat.


I'd take the line of Nganka'kull as people descended from him (kids and grandkids) - i.e. there's a line back.  So if the demon follows instructions to the letter, the whole family wouldn't necessarily get killed.  Zsoronga might in trouble though if he survives the Ordeal.

We are assuming that the line of Nganka'kull doesn't have some specific in-world meaning

I'd say the same, but who knows what Kellhus actually meant by those words. He might have meant the looser interpretation, that is "everyone in Nganka'kull's family".
Nitpicking/speculating, I know, but I'm assuming Nganka'kull might not even have any grandchildren if Zsoronga was his eldest son and he was around 16 years old (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2498.msg45214#msg45214) during TAE. Well, unless he has daughters that are older than Zsoronga who have kids of their own. We just don't know. Zsoronga never mentions any of his relatives besides his father (and his mother in a throwaway line), so he could have many siblings, uncles, aunts, cousins, etc. we don't even know about.

Am I the only one who thinks Zsoronga is dead? Seriously, several people mentioned him as having died in TUC. I'm not imagining things here, right? Kellhus strung up Proyas in a way that wouldn't result in (immediate) death, not so much in Zsoronga's case. Pretty sure he's dead, unless something very unexpected (that we don't know about) happened.

It could have an in-universe more specific meaning, but, at least for now, we don't have any reason to assume so. :)
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: TheCulminatingApe on May 31, 2018, 08:27:27 pm
Just a hunch, but I think there is something significant in Zeum

Something like sorcerous secrets, is that what you were thinking of?

Not sure really.

We have Domyot, the capital of Zeum, which is the Black Iron City (and built close to a Non-Man Mansion)
We have the Black Iron Seat of Ishterebinth, created when a set of gates were blasted with the Sun Lance.
We have the No God with its Sarcophagus, sometimes described as being of black iron.

Is this just a coincidence?

Out of world, we have the "Black Iron Prison" of Philip K Dick, which as I understand it is a description of the material world and the systems which prevent people going beyond it, to something more spiritual.  I've never read anything by Dick, so I might be barking up the wrong tree, but it does sound quite Consulty to me.
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: TheCulminatingApe on May 31, 2018, 08:28:30 pm
Am I the only one who thinks Zsoronga is dead? Seriously, several people mentioned him as having died in TUC. I'm not imagining things here, right? Kellhus strung up Proyas in a way that wouldn't result in (immediate) death, not so much in Zsoronga's case. Pretty sure he's dead, unless something very unexpected (that we don't know about) happened.

I forgot all about that :-[
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on May 31, 2018, 08:54:34 pm
Not sure really.

We have Domyot, the capital of Zeum, which is the Black Iron City (and built close to a Non-Man Mansion)
We have the Black Iron Seat of Ishterebinth, created when a set of gates were blasted with the Sun Lance.
We have the No God with its Sarcophagus, sometimes described as being of black iron.

Is this just a coincidence?

Out of world, we have the "Black Iron Prison" of Philip K Dick, which as I understand it is a description of the material world and the systems which prevent people going beyond it, to something more spiritual.  I've never read anything by Dick, so I might be barking up the wrong tree, but it does sound quite Consulty to me.

Interesting, you might be on to something there! Though it may be a while until we find out what is (potentially) special about Zeüm.

Never read that either (I did read one or two of Dick's other books, but that was years ago), so let's hope someone who did weighs in on this.


I forgot all about that :-[

To be fair, he (presumably) dies off-page, unlike Proyas. And it's easy to forget about him with...well, everything that happens afterward.
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: TheCulminatingApe on June 03, 2018, 05:41:13 pm
Not sure really.

We have Domyot, the capital of Zeum, which is the Black Iron City (and built close to a Non-Man Mansion)
We have the Black Iron Seat of Ishterebinth, created when a set of gates were blasted with the Sun Lance.
We have the No God with its Sarcophagus, sometimes described as being of black iron.

Is this just a coincidence?

Out of world, we have the "Black Iron Prison" of Philip K Dick, which as I understand it is a description of the material world and the systems which prevent people going beyond it, to something more spiritual.  I've never read anything by Dick, so I might be barking up the wrong tree, but it does sound quite Consulty to me.

Interesting, you might be on to something there! Though it may be a while until we find out what is (potentially) special about Zeüm.

A further point on Zeum.  Memgowa, the originator of the 'blind beggar brain' , which as far as I know, is the in world equivalent of Bakker's 'blind brain theory' was Zeumi.  On the assumption that he has left an intellectual legacy in Zeum, there may be people there that have a better chance of understanding what the No-God is there, than there are elsewhere
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: profgrape on June 04, 2018, 02:56:50 am
Not sure really.

We have Domyot, the capital of Zeum, which is the Black Iron City (and built close to a Non-Man Mansion)
We have the Black Iron Seat of Ishterebinth, created when a set of gates were blasted with the Sun Lance.
We have the No God with its Sarcophagus, sometimes described as being of black iron.

Is this just a coincidence?

Out of world, we have the "Black Iron Prison" of Philip K Dick, which as I understand it is a description of the material world and the systems which prevent people going beyond it, to something more spiritual.  I've never read anything by Dick, so I might be barking up the wrong tree, but it does sound quite Consulty to me.

Interesting, you might be on to something there! Though it may be a while until we find out what is (potentially) special about Zeüm.

A further point on Zeum.  Memgowa, the originator of the 'blind beggar brain' , which as far as I know, is the in world equivalent of Bakker's 'blind brain theory' was Zeumi.  On the assumption that he has left an intellectual legacy in Zeum, there may be people there that have a better chance of understanding what the No-God is there, than there are elsewhere
Excellent observation!  I don’t think we ever got a sense of how the Zeumi even think about the Apocalypse.  The idea of ending the cycle of birth seems like it would throw a big wrench in the whole idea of ancestor worship.
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on June 04, 2018, 06:37:24 pm
A further point on Zeum.  Memgowa, the originator of the 'blind beggar brain' , which as far as I know, is the in world equivalent of Bakker's 'blind brain theory' was Zeumi.  On the assumption that he has left an intellectual legacy in Zeum, there may be people there that have a better chance of understanding what the No-God is there, than there are elsewhere
Excellent observation!  I don’t think we ever got a sense of how the Zeumi even think about the Apocalypse.  The idea of ending the cycle of birth seems like it would throw a big wrench in the whole idea of ancestor worship.


I second what profgrape said, yet another great catch there, TheCulminatingApe.

Memgowa does seem to have left a lasting intellectual legacy in his home country. I remember Malowebi referring to his old mentor as a "true disciple of Memgowa" or something similar. Hopefully some of the greatest minds in modern-day Zeüm will become allies to Akka and co. in the future. He certainly needs some good ones...

Also a good point, profgrape. It makes me wonder if after the First Apocalypse, the people of Zeüm became even more zealous in their ancestor worship, having lost that connection once before. (I don't think it only became part of their culture then, it seems to be older than that.) They will certainly know what the Boding means, that's one of the (many) reasons why I feel it would be important to have a Zeümi POV (probably someone from Nganka'kull's court) early on, before our protagonists get there (if they ever do).
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: themerchant on November 25, 2018, 07:10:14 pm
Akka is qirri infused but reeling at the moment. He's smarter than he was.

Also Akka must have a reservoir of water inside him.

He can outrun the sranc in the air using magic.
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: Wilshire on November 28, 2018, 01:31:10 pm
Also Akka must have a reservoir of water inside him.

What do you mean?
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: themerchant on November 29, 2018, 09:56:54 pm
Also Akka must have a reservoir of water inside him.

What do you mean?

Just think how much passion he has felt in his life. Psûkhe seems to have some correlation to hardship/anguish/immense emotions. Just seems if anyone is about to have a Psûkhe based emotional breakdown it must be Akka. Although loads of others might be candidates too, there's a lot of anguish to spread about.

Plus Mimara can make the world answer to her as well. She manipulates the shroud just before she is struck blind by gazing at her belly. Noticed this in a re-read.
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: SmilerLoki on November 29, 2018, 10:49:35 pm
Plus Mimara can make the world answer to her as well. She manipulates the shroud just before she is struck blind by gazing at her belly. Noticed this in a re-read.
I just re-read that sequence, and I don't see it. Could you clarify?
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: themerchant on November 30, 2018, 09:30:04 am
Sorry it's a sequence before being struck blind


But her gaze lolls away, across the intact Horn soaring upward, silken with sunlight.Slowly,gracefully, she draws the Shroud across it's gracile immensity, for she is- and always has been- a modest whore. The beautiful ones always are, you see. She looks down upon the three desperate souls, as tony beetles clicking across the temple floor. The little Mimara us screaming hands about her burning,cramping, shrieking womb.

Then you read on a couple of pages and get this "Now the shroud had engulfed the High-Horn,...."

Now if i'm correct why is Greater Mimara shrouding the horn?
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: SmilerLoki on November 30, 2018, 12:34:10 pm
Sorry it's a sequence before being struck blind


But her gaze lolls away, across the intact Horn soaring upward, silken with sunlight.Slowly,gracefully, she draws the Shroud across it's gracile immensity, for she is- and always has been- a modest whore. The beautiful ones always are, you see. She looks down upon the three desperate souls, as tony beetles clicking across the temple floor. The little Mimara us screaming hands about her burning,cramping, shrieking womb.

Then you read on a couple of pages and get this "Now the shroud had engulfed the High-Horn,...."

Now if i'm correct why is Greater Mimara shrouding the horn?
Ah, got it, thank you!

I took this sequence as a poetic way to describe Mimara's slipping consciousness. She sees events, but she's under such a great amount of stress (not to mention Qirri) that it feels like she is causing them to happen. It's about her state of mind at that moment, not about some supernatural power she possesses.

Even then, in that state, she describes what's happening as "communing with the God of Gods". It's not that she causes things to happen, per se, it's that she imagines herself one with the entity that does.
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: TaoHorror on November 30, 2018, 02:42:35 pm
It's not that she causes things to happen, per se, it's that she imagines herself one with the entity that does.

SL - if I come up with the scratch to visit Russia, can I pay you to read this series with me?  :)

I should've hooked up with the re-read, I missed so much of this story, I couldn't follow so much of this stuff.
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: SmilerLoki on November 30, 2018, 03:55:18 pm
SL - if I come up with the scratch to visit Russia, can I pay you to read this series with me?  :)
No problem! Then we can ruminate together on how little we understand, and how everything can be entirely not what we take it for.
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: TaoHorror on November 30, 2018, 04:27:20 pm
SL - if I come up with the scratch to visit Russia, can I pay you to read this series with me?  :)
No problem! Then we can ruminate together on how little we understand, and how everything can be entirely not what we take it for.

Yeah, but you sound so much smarter about what you may be wrong about - better than me, a primate staring at a calculator in wonder. Be careful, I'll take you up on that :)

That and you can help me transition to becoming a Russian - I don't like settling for the help, I want to report directly to the man himself  :) - ( i.e. Trump, Putin )
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: themerchant on December 01, 2018, 09:37:11 pm
Sorry it's a sequence before being struck blind


But her gaze lolls away, across the intact Horn soaring upward, silken with sunlight.Slowly,gracefully, she draws the Shroud across it's gracile immensity, for she is- and always has been- a modest whore. The beautiful ones always are, you see. She looks down upon the three desperate souls, as tony beetles clicking across the temple floor. The little Mimara us screaming hands about her burning,cramping, shrieking womb.

Then you read on a couple of pages and get this "Now the shroud had engulfed the High-Horn,...."

Now if i'm correct why is Greater Mimara shrouding the horn?
Ah, got it, thank you!

I took this sequence as a poetic way to describe Mimara's slipping consciousness. She sees events, but she's under such a great amount of stress (not to mention Qirri) that it feels like she is causing them to happen. It's about her state of mind at that moment, not about some supernatural power she possesses.

Even then, in that state, she describes what's happening as "communing with the God of Gods". It's not that she causes things to happen, per se, it's that she imagines herself one with the entity that does.

Well she communes with God as God I think it is.

"The Greater Mimara communes with God as God"

Then literally next line is "Malowebi watched the shroud swallow the void that was light and deliver foetid darkness and gloom. The bottomless vista disappeared , leaving only their small platform stranded upon a vertical plane extending indefinitely in all directions.

The next change of scene also starts with the shroud as well, so it;s mentioned 3 times in a row. Once when "Greater Mimara" might move it. Once when Malowebi on the high horn is relived he can't see shit now and then When Akka is thinking not like this.

Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: SmilerLoki on December 02, 2018, 12:35:01 am
The next change of scene also starts with the shroud as well, so it;s mentioned 3 times in a row. Once when "Greater Mimara" might move it. Once when Malowebi on the high horn is relived he can't see shit now and then When Akka is thinking not like this.
To clarify, what I mean is, Mimara sees the Shroud falling (the event happens), but imagines herself moving it instead of just normally assuming it to be a force of nature unconnected to her. Her consciousness is drifting, that's why it's so strangely written.
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: themerchant on December 03, 2018, 07:45:35 pm
The next change of scene also starts with the shroud as well, so it;s mentioned 3 times in a row. Once when "Greater Mimara" might move it. Once when Malowebi on the high horn is relived he can't see shit now and then When Akka is thinking not like this.
To clarify, what I mean is, Mimara sees the Shroud falling (the event happens), but imagines herself moving it instead of just normally assuming it to be a force of nature unconnected to her. Her consciousness is drifting, that's why it's so strangely written.

I understand i'm just not sure what distinguishes the two interpretations. It might be poetic it might be literal.
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: SmilerLoki on December 03, 2018, 11:30:59 pm
I understand i'm just not sure what distinguishes the two interpretations. It might be poetic it might be literal.
Nothing more than empirical evidence. Mimara haven't moved the world before. In the Wight incident she exorcised something that didn't belong, and it required the use of a Chorae.

Bakker is prone to being poetic, this would hardly be the first time.
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: themerchant on December 04, 2018, 11:30:32 am
I understand i'm just not sure what distinguishes the two interpretations. It might be poetic it might be literal.
Nothing more than empirical evidence. Mimara haven't moved the world before. In the Wight incident she exorcised something that didn't belong, and it required the use of a Chorae.

Bakker is prone to being poetic, this would hardly be the first time.

Well she still has the Chorae in fact she has two now, well at that point she did. She did affect reality in the mountain. She forgave Galian (sp?) she also has the ability to know things she cannot know about the material world. This could be an extension of knowledge , just like sorcery is.

She could also see beyond the Chorae as well.

I personally don't think it's conclusive at all.
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: SmilerLoki on December 04, 2018, 12:49:26 pm
Well she still has the Chorae in fact she has two now, well at that point she did.
She does, but she doesn't use them in that sequence. There is no mention of it.

She did affect reality in the mountain. She forgave Galian (sp?) she also has the ability to know things she cannot know about the material world. This could be an extension of knowledge , just like sorcery is.
She knows things, yes. So far, it's her "common" supernatural power, which is well observed. The Wight incident is the only exception, and it required additional tools and very specific circumstances.

Forgiving Galian changed nothing save for her (and possibly the Judging Eye's, though it's less clear) perception of him.

Obviously, nothing is conclusive, but it looks much more like a stylistic thing than a narrative one, and has a clear purpose as such. There is no need to add some new supernatural power to Mimara's arsenal. At least, as of yet. You can still be very right.
Title: Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
Post by: themerchant on December 05, 2018, 10:58:26 am
Another side of the problem is Qirri. It seems to impart this "i'm one with everything feeling", Serwa gets it and wonders if this is like what it is to be father, before  chorae from nowhere wrecks that, and she finds out it is just like father.