"At long last, Ishual ... The sum of so much toil and suffering.
Its once grand bastions overturned. Its curtain walls struck to their foundations.
Another dead place" (WLW, p914)
The last lines of The White-Luck Warrior...
But what can it mean?!
Well the obvious reasons are either Kellhus destroyed Ishual or the Consult did it. Both seem probable but there is another theory.The Dunyain themselves destroyed and then abandoned their ancient sanctuary after they learned about Moenghus survival. Sure they sent Kellhus to eliminate him but they couldn't be sure of his success and their secrecy was over anyway. So where are they now?Hmmm.....who knows? :shock:
Possibilities:
1. Moenghus was in the North to summon Kellhus, he destroyed Ishual after Kellhus left and shadowed Kellhus' journey to Leweth, ensuring his survival through the most perilous part of his path as well as ensuring his education from a reliable source and fount of information.
2. Kellhus destroyed Ishual in between the trilogies for obvious reasons.
3. The Consult discovered and destroyed Ishaul in between the trilogies for obvious reasons
4. The Dunyain destroyed Ishual at some point after Kellhus left and are either hiding or have moved on to other environs.
Another not mentioned idea: Ishual has looked this way for some time, at least on the "outside". The walls are in disrepair, struck to their foundations could also mean more than just "they are gone". Perhaps the dunyain have dug themselves into the mountain long ago so that even if they were discovered, they would look like little more than a ruined castle.
Also "obvious" is a terrible word to use. When has anything ever been obvious.
Or maybe I'm just complaining because I feel stupid for not knowing why it would be Kell's obvious choice. Do explain.
Anyways, what does it mean?
How about what do I want first:
It would be sweet to see an army of dunyain. It just would. Several dozen elite dunyain warriors, each with chorea to negate that pesky magic. That would be awesome.
However, I find this extremely unlikely to happen.
What I think probably happened:
I think that the consult found them. Like the beginning of TDTCB, one cannot guard against a secret. The Consult never looked, so they never found. Once they knew that something was there to be discovered, they would search tirelessly until they found it. Obviously ( :P ) once there they would destroy the place, burn it to the ground.
However, I have a hard time believing any force on Earwa could destroy a contingent of Dunyain. Thats not to say they survived unscathed, but there had to be some kind of plan of escape. I cannot believe they were all killed.
I think there is a plethora of information dumping that will go on about the dunyain, perhaps in the form of flashbacks from survivors running to wherever they are going.
5. Ishual was only ever a dream...
Nah, just messin'!
Quote from: WilshireOr maybe I'm just complaining because I feel stupid for not knowing why it would be Kell's obvious choice. Do explain.
"You are Dunyain still, Father."
"As are --"
The eyeless face, once perfectly obdurate and inscrutable, suddenly twitched in the ghost of a grimace. Kellhus pulled his knife from his father's chest, retreated several steps. He watched his father probe the wound with his fingers, a weeping perforation just beneath his rib cage.
"I am more," the Warrior-Prophet said.
So he has daddy issues, doesn't mean he hates his entire village.
For the record, I think that one of the aforementioned theories will turn out to be correct.
I love lockesnow's theory about Moenghus, but I doubt it. Kellhus or the Consult seem the most likely, and I'd leave open the door for the possibility that the Dunyain simply left.
Let me throw out one other: The Nonmen of Ishterebinth did it. I can't say why, but they aren't far away, and Ishual is quite possibly connected to an older mansion. "Ish" means exalted in the old Nonman tongue.
I like the nonmen intermission theories. Can't decide if they are reasonable, but I like them. Kinda assumes that the nonmen are involved in the dunyain history, which, again, I cant decide.
Quote from: WilshireSo he has daddy issues, doesn't mean he hates his entire village.If he said "You are father still, Dunyain" I'd agree with you (and laugh at him for sounding like an idiot). The text seems pretty unambiguous: Kellhus killed his father for being a Dunyain.
Re-reading that section again, it's pretty amazing just how unambiguous Kellhus's whole motive seems to be: war against the No-God and save the world. So why is it that so many of us readers seem to share this nagging suspicion that all is not what it seems?
I think he said he is more than a Dunyain. The more decided this about his dad and attached history, certainly. Not sure it's just about Dunyain perse.
Quote from: Wilshire
What I think probably happened:
I think that the consult found them. Like the beginning of TDTCB, one cannot guard against a secret. The Consult never looked, so they never found. Once they knew that something was there to be discovered, they would search tirelessly until they found it
I agree with this.
Do you remember the scene at the end of the Warrior Prophet where Aurang? Is systematically torturing and questioning men dragged in from some southern village?
His repeated question was simple, “who are the Dûnyain?”
The search had begun in earnest.
Btw, someone offered an option that the ruins of Ishuäl are old.
That can’t be the case, we get a description from Kellhus as he leaves Ishuä in at the start of the first book.
And he does not describe ruins as I recall.
Very little is actually said about the outward appearance of Ishual. Almost all of what we know is about the internal workings, i.e The Thousand Thousand halls and the room of faces. The external walls, battlement, castle, all of this is a mystery. Kell may leave, but what does he say about when he leaves? He doesn't even look back or tell us about the leaving, mostly just that he simply left. And not to mention that Ishual is exceedingly old by human standards. All of the ruins that Akka explores are from a similar time period, and a lot of them are completely destroyed, down to their foundations if you will.
To clarify, Aurang was interrogating his prisoners north of the Sea of Cerish (which is East not south), and I believe it was near Myclai (thought this is the only map marker in that area so I could just be making that part up). But that's largely irreverent, it shows that the consult were looking, hard, to find Ishual. If they found a tiny band of wandering nomads in the northeastern wastes of Earwa, they certainly could find a Citadel stronghold, secret or not.
If the Dunyain are responsible for Ishual's destruction then I believe it happened since Kellhus left Ishual as a measure against his returning and interfering with The Project, a la Moenghus.
I've also voiced ideas in the past about the Thousand Thousand Halls simply being an extension of Ishterebinth from the Mansion's former glory and Mimara and Achamian, wearing Nil'giccas armor, simply wander into a living Mansion.
I've been challenged on this by a friend who doesn't partake in online discussion but I think we agreed to disagree due to the ambiguity of the relevant passages (or he just proved me wrong, perhaps) - he argues that the Thousand Thousand Halls are explicitly built by the Dunyain.
However, locksnow mention the when of the Dreams and now Borric and Wilshire are forming this conclusion in the Nau-Cayuti Dreams (http://secondapocalypse.forumer.com/the-nau-cayuti-dreams-t1249040.html) thread, so I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest the new theory that:
Bakker is going to drop a bomb on us real early on in TUC and Mimara and Achamian are going to find the Heron Spear in Ishual because that's where Seswatha hid it!
Quote from: Wilshire.Kell may leave, but what does he say about when he leaves? He doesn't even look back or tell us about the leaving, mostly just that he simply left.
Umm.
Yeah he does look back, and he does comment.
It’s in the prologue to the darkness that comes before, so it should be easy for us to find.
There was also another comment during Kel’s memories of his childhood training.
When he was outside, and the proctor was teaching them combat training.
But i can’t remember in which book that was, or where.
"Distant figures filed between the battlements before disappearing behind stone - the elder Dunyain abandoning their vigil. They would wind down the mighty staircases, Kellhus knew, and one by one enter the darkness of the Thousand Thousand Halls, the great Labyrinth that wheeled through the depths of Ishual. There they would die, as had been decided. All those his father had polluted" (TDTCB, p5).
Did Celmomas build over the entrance to a Mansion? Did he build Ishual at all? Did he strike a deal with Nil'giccas?
"Thousand Thousand Halls - The labyrinth constructed by the Dunyain beneath Ishual and used by them to test their initiates. Those who become lost in the Thousand Thousand Halls invariably die, ensuring that only the most intelligent survive" (TTT Glossary, p625).
Truth? My friend seems right.
"Because of this, events unfolded with granitic certainty in Ishual" (TDTCB, p7).
So there is a dark Labyrinth that becomes perfectly knowable to a Dunyanic threshold for human minds.
And from the prologue.
Climbing pitted mountain trails, Anasûrimbor Kellhus leaned on his knee and turned to look at the monastic citadel. Ishuals ramparts towered above a screen of spruce and larches, only to be dwarfed by the rutted mountain slopes beyond.
Quote from: MadnessDid he strike a deal with Nil'giccas?
I think that likely, building a citadel in secret, in a mountain range would be nigh on impossible right?
I missed that quote, good eye, Borric.
Is it possible that the Dunyain have joined the Consult in some capacity? Given their disgust w/ Moe's "corruption" this seems almost likely.
Quote from: BorricAnd from the prologue.
Climbing pitted mountain trails, Anasûrimbor Kellhus leaned on his knee and turned to look at the monastic citadel. Ishuals ramparts towered above a screen of spruce and larches, only to be dwarfed by the rutted mountain slopes beyond.
All the other quotes about Ishual above this one, to me, tell only that there is something mighty underneath, but little about Ishual itself.
This, however, is extremely clear, and obviously I was talking out of my ass earlier :P.
So there we have it, Ishual stood, mighty and implacable, hidden through 2000 years of strife and termoil, untouched by the ravages time. A shame its all gone = (. Im so disappointed now.
Anyways, that does somewhat give credence to the fact that it wasn't really hidden, it was a big castle, taller than even the trees (which had been growing for at least 2000 years at this point), and that the Consult or anyone else that knew they should be looking for something in that area would be able to find it without much difficulty (aside from the sranc and the elements....)
Edit:Quote from: Truth ShinesQuote from: WilshireSo he has daddy issues, doesn't mean he hates his entire village.If he said "You are father still, Dunyain" I'd agree with you (and laugh at him for sounding like an idiot). The text seems pretty unambiguous: Kellhus killed his father for being a Dunyain.
Re-reading that section again, it's pretty amazing just how unambiguous Kellhus's whole motive seems to be: war against the No-God and save the world. So why is it that so many of us readers seem to share this nagging suspicion that all is not what it seems?
I disagree that its clear. He killed his father for what he knew, for being against his plan to destroy the no-god, for being a dunyain that saw the Thousandfold Thought but not agreeing as to what it meant. But he did not kill him simply for being a dunyain. Why? Because every single dunyain that has grasped TTT has come to a different conclusion as to what it means and where it leads, so you cannot conclude that Kell would like to kill all the dunyain.
Maithanet, Kelmomas, Inrilatas, Moenghus, Kellhus. All of these we either know or have good reason to believe that they have grasped TTT. Moe and Kell obviously disagree as to what should be done, Kel only just grasped it but I'm sure he will take a path that leads him closer to his mother (and screws everyone else), Inrilatas is dead so who knows about that one, and Maitha im not sure. Regardless, everyone sees something different.
Also, while there is a large agreement in the community as to what the TTT is exactly, there is still some confusion as to what it does and how it can be 'used'. Unlike the inverse fire there are many different paths that seeing TTT will lead you to and it seems to be very subjective. There are several threads on this topic.
It reads such that Moe would like to save the world by shutting out the gods, and Kell would like to save it be destroying the Consult and keeping the world open. To me, this is unambiguous and clear. However, as we have learned, what is obvious to some is not so obvious to others, and just because you seem to believe its simple doesn't mean everyone necessarily agrees. I don't know if there are many, if any, threads on this forum that dont have some sort of disagreement in them. Clear is relative, as is unambiguous and obvious. There are several threads discussing this debate about Moe and Kell, "Moe is a lying liar who lies" comes to mind immediately.
Anyways.
The nagging suspicion likely comes from the WHCB section that declare Kellhus as mad. One never quite knows what
a mad man will do.Quote from: JayfishIs it possible that the Dunyain have joined the Consult in some capacity? Given their disgust w/ Moe's "corruption" this seems almost likely.
Entirely possible. Though there are a lot of political and historical issues that would need to be explained first to really decide whether or not this is likely. Ignoring all that though, if you simply look at what the Consult did, or allegedly did, to the Nonman, it wouldn't seem too extraordinary. The Nonmen spent thousands of years warring against the Consult and ended up joining up with them later. Should be easier to convince some monks in the mountains to join up with you, at least when compared to the people you spend a millennium or two trying to exterminate.
The inverse fire goes a long way it would seem.
Quote from: WilshireTo clarify, Aurang was interrogating his prisoners north of the Sea of Cerish (which is East not south), and I believe it was near Myclai (thought this is the only map marker in that area so I could just be making that part up).Aurang? Isn't it Aurax? I don´t remember if it is said, but I always thought Aurang was confined (by the time) in the Synthese, and that the abomination who tortured northeastern people (look how far from Ishual, they don´t seem to have a clue... though in 20 years, who knows?) was Aurax.
Yeah probably Aurax, not 100% sure to be honest, but he is defiantly in the northeast.
See I think that the Dunyain would seek to dominate their circumstances, no matter how profoundly fucked up embodying that mastery makes them.
And that's the crux. We have Kellhus' assertions, read assumptions, that those were Moenghus' goals. We have none of Moenghus' crucial perspective in the climax of TTT and we simply took Bakker's cue and filed the Dunyain under "Will Join Consult."
This has been the motivating idea behind the Dunyain and their possible domination of Ishterebinth by the twisting of Nonmen Selves. As Malowebi suggests the Dunyain are Thought-Dancers, able to adopt complete perspectives, even of other species, easier than we change clothes. The Dunyain would probably do absolutely anything to dominate the Universe until it can just sit in the middle of the world while existence pulsates around them, dancing to its tune.
Actually, reminds me of Azathoth.
Ultimately, the Dunyain do not share in the motivations of lesser souls... those tools are the levers that dominate.
Neither does Kellhus.
Agreed. Perhaps they realized that isolation would only be possible after complete control was established. Maybe they are going out into the world, conquering every spec of Earwa until they can assure themselves the solitude they so desire. Only a Dunyain ruled world would be able to set up an absolutely isolated culture that would last long enough to truly obtain their self-moving goal.
Their very own Kwisatz Haderach (just for fun - Kwisatz Haderach: "Shortening of the Way." This is the label applied by the Bene Gesserit to the unknown for which they sought a genetic solution ... and The very superbeing for whom the Bene Gesserit had schemed and waited becomes the instrument by which their order is diminished.)
It was my understanding that Kell killed his father because he realized that his father would eventually side with the consult to prevent his damnation. If the other Dunyain didn't practice sorcery (and we know they don't), it seems unlikely that they would join the consult. What's their motivation?
+1, Wilshire. Don't know why I didn't previously.
"'What are they, Pragma?'
'Exemplary defectives... Specimens. We retain them for purposes of eduction.' The Pragma simulated a smile. 'For students such as you, Kellhus.'
...
Their heads were drawn forward into open iron frames, where they were held motionless by bracketing bars. Behind their heads, wires had been fixed to the base of each frame. These swept forward in a radial fashion, ending in tiny silver hooks that anchored the obscuring skin. Slick muscle gleamed in the light. To Kellhus, it looked as though each man had thrust his head into a spider web that had peeled away his face.
Pragma Meigon had called it the Unmasking Room" (TWP, p461).
It think this might be Damn worthy, neh, Blackstone?
As I highlighted above though, I really can't suggest that Moenghus thought he was Damned at all... Perhaps, Kellhus is mad (another assertion I don't support) and the Dunyain, in their perfect, Thought-Dancer, rational way, would simply prevent the apocalypse because they can?
Quote from: Madness+1, Wilshire. Don't know why I didn't previously.
It think this might be Damn worthy, neh, Blackstone?
As I highlighted above though, I really can't suggest that Moenghus thought he was Damned at all... Perhaps, Kellhus is mad (another assertion I don't support) and the Dunyain, in their perfect, Thought-Dancer, rational way, would simply prevent the apocalypse because they can?
Eh, maybe. But that is assuming that Dunyain would believe in the same morality as everyone else.
I don't think that Moe thought he was damned at the time Kell killed him, I believe that Kell decided through the thousand fold thought that Moe would eventually realize he was damned and help bring about the apocalypse as a result.
Quote from: BlackstoneIt was my understanding that Kell killed his father because he realized that his father would eventually side with the consult to prevent his damnation
I don't fully agree with this. I agree that Kell probably killed Moe to prevent him from joining the Consult and so on, but I don't think Moe would have done so to prevent his damnation. Mainly because I don't think that Moe really believed in the whole damnation/afterlife thing anyway.
I think it was more of a matter of philosophical differences that would have led Moe to the Consult and Kell against them.
I'd have to admit though I never really considered Moe's thoughts on the metaphysics of damnation. Him having the third sight and all... about as good as seeing the inverse fire ...
Quote from: Wilshire
I don't fully agree with this. I agree that Kell probably killed Moe to prevent him from joining the Consult and so on, but I don't think Moe would have done so to prevent his damnation. Mainly because I don't think that Moe really believed in the whole damnation/afterlife thing anyway.
I think it was more of a matter of philosophical differences that would have led Moe to the Consult and Kell against them.
Kellhus to Moenghus: "The crimes you've committed, Father...the sins...When you learn of the damnation that awaits you, when you come to believe, you will be no different from the Inchoroi. As Dunyain, you will be compelled to master the consequences of your wickedness. Like the Consult, you will come to see tyranny in what is holy...And you will war as they war." (TTT 375). It goes on to describe Kell going into the probability trance and seeing a future where Moe assassinates him and becomes emperor, only to sacrifice humanity to the Consult, Sranc, No-God, etc... Perhaps Moe wouldn't have done that, but Kellhus most assuredly thought Moe would, and so killed him.
On the other hand, I found another passage that might support Kellhus wiping out the Dunyain: "'The Dunyain,' Moenghus continued, 'think the world closed, that the mundane is all there is, and in this they are most certainly wrong.'" (TTT 367).j Perhaps Kell reached the same decision about the Dunyain as he did about his father.
+1, Blackstone. Lol, that's awesome. I was thinking to post the second quote as I was reading the first.
Moenghus knew things Kellhus did not at that point in the narrative. The Third Sight is just another of the mysteries Meppa offers us...
Being aware of some kind of damnation machine and truely believing in it are separate. Kellhus letting his daddy know that hes going to hell really doesn't have much consequence if Moe doesn't care to listen. There is always that third sight though.
Kellhus is also Dunyain. If he changed through his journey and his discovery of whatever the Dunyain had hidden, it is likely that other would too. Based on the information we have, a wholesale slaughter of all his brethren seems unlikely. Though we don't know a whole lot and I can't say I would be surprised if Kell did wipe them all out for some unknown reason.
Thanks for that quote Blackstone. I'm calling it now - at least some of the Dunyain have gone over the Consult. That's just too interesting of a storyline for it not to happen. Moreover, I have trouble believing we've seen the last of the Dunyain.
a dunyain vs dunyain, mundane or magical battle would be ...... interesting.
A lot of thinking and not a lot of moving I'd imagine.
Quote from: WilshireBeing aware of some kind of damnation machine and truely believing in it are separate. Kellhus letting his daddy know that hes going to hell really doesn't have much consequence if Moe doesn't care to listen. There is always that third sight though.
Kellhus is also Dunyain. If he changed through his journey and his discovery of whatever the Dunyain had hidden, it is likely that other would too. Based on the information we have, a wholesale slaughter of all his brethren seems unlikely. Though we don't know a whole lot and I can't say I would be surprised if Kell did wipe them all out for some unknown reason.
Regardless of whether or not Moe would have believed in his own damnation, Kellhus believed that Moe would. That's why he killed him.
I'm also not saying the Kellhus killed the other Dunyain, but he was the only person that for sure knew their location.
And I'm saying Kellhus killed Moenghus for bogus rationality... but +1, Blackstone. Except Cnaiur knows the Demua Mountain range, I'd hazard.
I'm pretty sure that this is one of the few, if not only, Ishual thread we have going so I thought I'd add some thoughts.
I'm studying the Republic for the fifth time academically, not to mention the times I read it for and in high school, and in the years between institutions.
I cannot believe I never thought about this before but Ishual is the City of the Republic.
Who are the Philosopher-Kings? The Pragma?
What classes are there besides the Guardian class? Is Kellhus one of these, as would be my Nerdanelized theory about a Dunyain who conditions Ishterebinth, so as to better condition the very world? If so, is he bound by the Myth of the Metals, or does his training reflect standing outside the lie?
God-Emperor of Dune spoiler:(click to show/hide)
The Third Sight was mentioned...I guess it just hit me that I don't know what this refers to. I mean, I know that it's something that Moe allegedly possesses, and his following within the Cishaurim attempt to possess it too.
Here's what I assumed that it meant...but please let me know if I'm wrong.
Regular vision is sight or the first sight. The way the Cish apprehend the world after losing their eyes is the 2nd sight, so that existed before Moenghus came along. So the 3rd sight is the Cishaurim name for Moe's Dunyain insights or another name for the Logos.
I'm pretty sure the third sight is just what the Cish call their 'vision' after blinding themselves. But now you have made me feel uncertain.
first sight = eyeball sight
second sight = snake sight
third sight = 'blind' sight
conclusion?
vampires in space, bitches.
Re 3rd sight...
First = Mundane sight
Second sight would more likely be the ability to percieve the onta.
Third sight is probably a deepening of this attained by removing the confusion generated by the subjective frame of mundane sight.
Hints as to its qualities;
- Moe 'shines' in the third sight - inidcates it is possessed by all Cish. Suggests some relationship with the strength of the logos in a soul or the ability to see from the perspective of others
- Cish in the shadow ways that Akka and Xin walk can see very well and emite some kind of 'light' with their gaze. Suggests it isn't related to their snakes.
- Meppa can see Psatma's objective nature rather than the subjective frame she presents post-Yatwerian 'gift'.
It's problematic because some of these clues seem to suggest that the third sight enables Cish to see the soul of individuals instead of their physical form but this is impossible or they would have uncovered the skin spies indepentantly of Moe and would never have suspected the SS as being behind them.
Curethan's got it right, I think. Second Sight is what the Few possess. Third Sight is what Cishaurim possess.
a fourth kind?
Quote from: Wilshirea fourth kind?
I was thinking that regular sight is first sight, Cish sight is 2nd sight, and Logos/Moe is 3rd sight. The comments in the text suggest that Moe "shines" in the 3rd sight and yet we are also told he's pretty weak w/ the Water, so that is where my confusions comes from. Does he "shine" w/ The Water or something else? Since he has this faction within the Cish, I assume he's got this other mini-3rd Sight cult going on, and I suspect it's based on Logos or something like it.
Quote from: TriskeleI was thinking that regular sight is first sight, Cish sight is 2nd sight, and Logos/Moe is 3rd sight. The comments in the text suggest that Moe "shines" in the 3rd sight and yet we are also told he's pretty weak w/ the Water, so that is where my confusions comes from. Does he "shine" w/ The Water or something else? Since he has this faction within the Cish, I assume he's got this other mini-3rd Sight cult going on, and I suspect it's based on Logos or something like it.
I was under the impression that all of the Cish can see that Moe shines brightly in the third sight which is explained somewhere as the reason Moe is given a position of respect among the Cish even considering his relative 'weakness' when it came to the amount of his Water. So I am in the camp of:
First Sight - regular eyesight
Second Sight - the ability to perceive the Onta
Third Sight - using the snakes and/or the third eye in the forehead to see
Perhaps Third Sight is something similar to a simpler man-made version of the Judging Eye (Fourth Sight?).
Certainly, whatever the third sight is, Kellhus was able to deduce its existence from information gathered from Inrithi sources or the broad cultural knowledge derived from the cities they conquered en route to Shimeh.
He just didn't have the opportunity to learn about any secret tech developed by Moe's cabal prior to their face-off.
“I am Hifanat ab Tunukri,” the eyeless man said breathlessly, “a Dionorate of the tribe Indara-Kishauri... I bear a message from your Father. He says, ‘You walk the Shortest Path. Soon you will grasp the Thousandfold Thought.’”
Father?
Sheathing his sword, Kellhus opened himself to every outward sign the man offered. He saw desperation and purpose. Purpose above all...
“How did you find me?”
“We see you. All of us.” Behind the man, the smoke rising from the Citadel opened like a great velvet rose.
“Us?”
“All of us who serve him — the Possessors of the Third Sight.”
Him... Father. He controlled a faction within the Cishaurim...
“I must,” Kellhus said emphatically, “know what he intends.”
“He told me nothing... Even if he had, there wouldn’t be time.”
Though battle stress and the absence of eyes complicated his reading, Kellhus could see the man spoke sincerely. But why, after summoning him from so far, would his father now leave him in the dark?" (TWP, p579).
Thankyou Madness.
Obviously, I stand corrected.
Well, actually I'm sitting down... so I stand corrected on that too.
Erm, sit corrected...
Except I'm not sitting correctly either.
:'(
Well, this is arkward.
I hope I dont fart.
*prrpt*
Damn.
I was about to ask someone to find a relevant quote. Thanks Madness.
I think that can be read as either Moe is the sole possessor of the third site, or that the possessor of the third site is a title given to a Cish or a high ranked member of them.
Is there anywhere else that third sight shows up?
"the fourth kind" was a joke :P but I guess the JE could be it
See, I think that quote suggests that the 3rd sight is something specific to Moe and his Cish followers that is separate from the Cish in general. Perhaps the insights that the Logos provides or something?
“All of us who serve him — the Possessors of the Third Sight.”
After rereading the whole thing several times
'Possessors of the Third Sight'
So they are not referring to Moe as the one with "third sight", really they are calling themselves possessors of the sight. Meaning that it is probably just some arbitrary title that Moe came up. A Dunyain bauble, nothing more. Words used to control.
Quote from: TTT"Seokti and the others respect you. Indeed, as Mallahet you have a reputation that reaches across Kian and beyond. And you shine in the Third Sight. But secretly they all think you cursed by the Solitary God. Why else would the water elude you?"
It's Kellhus' induction that suggests all Cish possess the Third Sight.
There were a few instances of reinforcement by Bakker on Three-Seas.
That's how we have the whole idea that shining in the Third Sight somehow reflects the proper proportions of the God and that reflecting the proper proportions of God reflects, in the Dunyain, breeding to affect certain cognitive functions (memory being specifically mentioned).
But if the Third Sight is all-Cish stuff, it seems like Kellhus saying that Moe "shines" is a contradiction with him saying that what he thought was the shortest path was a dead end.
Quote from: TriskeleBut if the Third Sight is all-Cish stuff, it seems like Kellhus saying that Moe "shines" is a contradiction with him saying that what he thought was the shortest path was a dead end.
Only if shining in the third sight means holding a lot of water. It could be that this shining is completely separate from this. That could have been the trap he fell into. That if he was all shiny that he must be able to bare a lot of water. Wrongo.
Then again, if you are in the meta-Moe tribe, you should go over to the Moenghus is a lying liar who lies thread.
If you read the 2-3 pages of Kellhus explaining the metaphysics of sorcery (TTT) it all makes an oblique kind of sense.
"Shining in the Third Sight" probably indicates one's ability to recall the world from a universal point of veiw (True meaning, as Kellhus puts it).
Unfortunately for Moenghus, this doesn't translate to power within the Cish's metaphysics - they chanel empathic force rather than leveraging amibguities.
I have a real hard time trusting Kellhus in that scene, Curethan. I mean, we know he uses truth to manipulate, we know he can only be manipulating Achamian, so it may reflect Earwa's reality... but it may not.
+1. Fits with the whole memory theme.
Meppa and Moenghus the Elder form an interesting gradient then:
Meppa, who has no memory - may or may not shine with the Third Sight (remember, Psatma can see the Water that Meppa holds and calls it an "ocean," ironically feeding into the Kellhus' assertive metaphor that "God is an Ocean inside everyman.") But seems an unparralleled Psukhari.
Moenghus, who has excellent memory - does seems to shine in the Third Sight (Kellhus does so shine to the Cishaurim from TWP), may or may not hold Water.
Are there non-Cishaurim, faithful Fanim, who also shine in the Third Sight?
Does the Third Sight reflect Cishaurim belief or only something of Moenghus' Sect? The Cishaurim in TWP seems to imply that it is sect-specific but Kellhus assumes in TTT that Moenghus shines in the Third Sight to all the Cishaurim.
(Moenghus almost was certainly mirroring his son's attempts at domination within the Cishaurim and so clearly had been elevated to some position of respect - I really wonder how Mallahat can hold no water yet only be barred from High Heresiarch because he is a foreigner..)
Regarding Khellus, nothing decieves so well as the truth.
Reward the intellect and punish the heart. It's the dunyain M.O. and its why their manipulations are so hard to escape.
I really feel that scene is as close as Bakker has or will come to explaining sorcery - their may be some important omited facts, but I think it's pretty sound.
The recollection he talks about is more some kind of ancestral or racial memory.
It sounds to me like 'shining in the Third Sight' a way of seeing the few before they use magic, pre-Mark if you will.
Remember that Akka had to test Kellhus to be sure if he was of the few? Well, I think the Cish can spot em straight away depending on how shiny they appear, lol.
+1. I was highlighting reasons to believe Kellhus - despite the fact that I feel I will always treat Kellhus as Cnaiur did, even though everything can't be deception through and through.
I figure the Third Sight either relates explicitly to all Cishaurim or techniques that Moenghus has elaborated on the Psukhe - clearly, Moenghus uses and refashions Fanimry as Kellhus does Inrithism - not some third option... no pun intended.
Maybe the Third Sight is the Cish's way of perceiving the world after blinding after all...not their full on Psukhe abilities, and Moe does indeed shine in it because he's got little Dunyain advantages like perceiving changes in heartbeats and intonations in voices and the like? Sort of like he he noticed the skin spies? The other Cish were probably like "It's pretty cool that we can see despite our blinding, but this Moe guy, dude can really see."
Mmm, I doubt it Trisk.Quote"And without your eyes, your ability to discern what comes before is much reduced. The snakes are but pinholes."
You may be right, but that quote sort of contradicts Kellhus suggesting that Moe was able to identify the skin spies by hearing subtle clues...someone no non-Dunyain had accomplished.
I've often wondered if Kellhus assertions about Moenghus' identifications don't turn out to be a retcon. I figure Bakker's pretty good for avoiding them but I can't simply rule it out.
However, I also advocate that Kellhus was out and out wrong in his narrative regarding Moenghus' journey - there are too many discrepancies between Mallahet's reputation and Kellhus' assumptions about his father, among other things.
Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2004Before the First Apocalypse the Dunyain were a heretical community of Kuniuric ascetics (originally based in Sauglish) who sought enlightenment (the Absolute) through the study and practice of reason (the Logos). They were a young movement, but they had already suffered sporadic persecution for some time. But since the Kunniat faith practiced by the High Norsirai was not hierarchical, no concerted effort was made to punish their atheism.
To add to my Ishual is the City in the Republic and the Anasurimbor are simply the Guardians. Straight from the lecture slides - I'm not going to comment on the merits of the professor... simply a fitting analogy:
"Everything is to be held in common - no private property, men and woman, education (based on merit, requiring of censorship & philosophy, Noble Lie), eugenics - reproduction is done through a fixed lottery run by the philosopher kings to produce super-soldiers - one family."
"'What are they, Pragma?'My bold.
'Exemplary defectives... Specimens. We retain them for purposes of eduction.' The Pragma simulated a smile. 'For students such as you, Kellhus.'
ex·em·pla·ry (g-zmpl-r)
adj.
1. Worthy of imitation; commendable: exemplary behavior.
2. Serving as a model.
3. Serving as an illustration; typical.
4. Serving as a warning; admonitory.
Quoteex·em·pla·ry (g-zmpl-r)
adj.
1. Worthy of imitation; commendable: exemplary behavior.
2. Serving as a model.
3. Serving as an illustration; typical.
4. Serving as a warning; admonitory.
I think the later definitions are pertinent, Wilshire. The first is also suitable when you consider each defective presents a specific displayed emotion.
Yeah, exemplary is a word sort of like "exciting" in that it tends to invoke positive connotations even though it must not
Man, still so interested in what we will or will not see @ Ishual.
Is Scott going to give us the rest of that chapter, or must we arrange a plying?
What makes them Exemplary? Why use that word at all? I don't see how that descriptor was helpful. The Pragma would have simply said "Defectives".
What makes them Exemplary? Why use that word at all? I don't see how that descriptor was helpful. The Pragma would have simply said "Defectives".
It may be that they still have births in Ishual that don't have 'balance.' Exemplary defectives may be dunyain-born, but are like Inrilatas and 'show' more emotion than the dunyain can themselves express. They may be 'exemplary' in that they are able to display all emotions, and thus are indispensable in the teaching of face reading. How could a dispassionate society learn about emotions unless they had ready access to those who could display them? That's my bs theory.
Is Scott going to give us the rest of that chapter, or must we arrange a plying?
Wow, I had no idea. Exemplary means serving as an example. Well I'm a bit embarrassed.
The original Chapter 1 post did seem to suggest that there was going to be another half at some point. I bet his publisher got word and told him he couldn't do it.
I think that whatever Ishual is, it is something Seswatha cooked up way back when. He needed multiple strategies to defeat the Consult in the fullness of time so he created the Dunyain and the Mandate (and other groups?) to eventually get it done.
I'm a bit fuzzy on the facts that we know about the original Dunyain, but I think thats a pretty good idea.
It reminds me of Asimov's Foundation/Second-Foundation if you've read those books....
The more I think about it, the more I like it :). Seswatha knew about Ishual and knew that there should be a surviving Anasurimbor bloodline, so he sent his second foundation of cultivate the Prophecy and to secretly train an army. They would only show up when the world was in dire need of a savior, basically forcing the prophecy to be true.
Blah, forgot to say--what if the dunyain are in Atrithau and have been for a long long time? There is so much silence about Atrithau I'm suspecting something.
Blah, forgot to say--what if the dunyain are in Atrithau and have been for a long long time? There is so much silence about Atrithau I'm suspecting something.Missed this in my earlier post.
An image struck Achamian: himself as a boy, climbing on the big rocks, the ones his father had used to dry the nets, pausing every few breathless instants simply to look around him. Something had happened. It was as though he’d opened different eyelids, ones beneath those he normally opened each morning. Everything was so agonizingly tight, as though the flesh of the world had been dried taut across the gaps between bone: the net against stone, the grid of shadows cast over the hollows, the watery beads cupped between the flex of tendons on his hands—so clear! And within this tightness, the sensation of inner blooming, of the collapse of seeing into being, as though his eyes had been wrung into the very heart of things. From the surface of the stone, he could see himself, a dark child towering across the disc of the sun.
Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Darkness that Comes Before (The Prince of Nothing) (pp. 77-78). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.
Then the sun broke from the glacier, and he was dumbstruck by its beauty. Smouldering orange cresting cold planes of shining snow and ice.
Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Darkness that Comes Before (The Prince of Nothing) (p. 515). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.
A moving soul chained to the brink, to the exquisite moment before something, anything. The tree, the heart, the everything transformed into nothing by repetition, by the endless accumulation of the same refusal to name.
A corona of gold across the high slopes of the glacier.
Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Darkness that Comes Before (The Prince of Nothing) (p. 520). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.
In the recoil of his trance, it seemed all he could hear were the twigs arching and bobbing in the wind, pulled by leaves like a million sails no bigger than his hand.
Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Darkness that Comes Before (The Prince of Nothing) (p. 527). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.
There is definitely a quote from Cu'jara Cinmoi where he says what they breed for that also happens to be the biological requirements for the Few.
But Moenghus the Elder, Kellhus, Maithanet, Serwa, Kelmomas.
I'm more curious about the 2000 years in-between... Bakker has said that TUC is an infodump. Perhaps that includes some kind of montage history of the Dunyain.
But Moenghus the Elder, Kellhus, Maithanet, Serwa, Kelmomas.
I always wondered why Atyersus was established where it was...Second FoundationFirst Foundation :o?!
It's odd to me that only the Dunyain (apparently) have thought of breeding for success. I would have thought that the Scarlet Spires, Mandate, and Consult would be up to similar projects.
But Moenghus the Elder, Kellhus, Maithanet, Serwa, Kelmomas.
More extraordinary still that half of Kellhus' own children had the ability as well.
All the members you quoted there that I listed are of the Few. That's still a lot of members of one lineage, from two random couple pairings of Dunyain and worldborn to produce Few children.
The sorcerous Wards he need not worry about. He could see them easily enough.
All the members you quoted there that I listed are of the Few. That's still a lot of members of one lineage, from two random couple pairings of Dunyain and worldborn to produce Few children.
EDIT: I think it is weird that only two of five are of the Few. Though, if only two of six of Moenghus' were (Maithanet & possibly Meppa).
All the members you quoted there that I listed are of the Few. That's still a lot of members of one lineage, from two random couple pairings of Dunyain and worldborn to produce Few children.
EDIT: I think it is weird that only two of five are of the Few. Though, if only two of six of Moenghus' were (Maithanet & possibly Meppa).
Kellhus is Moe's son. So 2 that we know and possibly Meppa :P. Mimara is also of the few, so Esmenet has 6 children alive, and 3 can See, and Moenghus Sr. also had 6 children and possibly 3 of them can See (again, if you include Meppa, which I am for now). That makes each case 50/50 :).
I'm thinking about that analogy that Akka used to tell Esmi what had happened to X's soul when the Scarlet Spires compelled him. Something about a flood that washes over the land and changes the course of the rivers. I wonder if Kellhus could manipulate a soul to the point that it gained the Gift of the Few? No hints of this so far, but it would be neat.
Or manipulate a soul to the point it lost its gift--this would be a cool way to take down Consult members. Like the end of Avatar: The Last Airbender?