It was most definitely sorcery, and Achamian has practice using it, as well as hiding it, in public places. He's not staring at the Shrial Knights with lit eyes (and perhaps only the Few see the actual light from eyes/mouth?).

He's being conspicuous while being inconspicuous. The Shrial Knights have better things to pay attention to.

That said, the Mark stuff is what gave me pause at first, too. My best guess is Achamian is working a temporary version of the Cant. (The Mark is visible while operable) It is only when the current effects permanantly Compel the subject (i.e. permanently Compel) that the mark of the sorcery is permanently visible.

But when Achamian was done, and had Inrau where he needed him, the Cant (and thus the Mark) were completely released. Inrau didn't have a permanent Mark because he wasn't permanently Compelled.

Whoever sent the prophecy wanted Kellhus to fail. It's Drusas Achamian's indecision that keeps him alive.

Achamian's hesitation in turning him in is because he knew the Mandate would completely destroy him with their Plies (early TWP) and even the Conditioned wouldn't survive a Cant of Compulsion.

Whoever sent the Prophecy really, really wanted Kellhus to fail.

On this note, Aurang states that all the prophecies, true and false, must be observed. And Achamian was trained by a Consult skin-spy (the-thing-that-is-called-Simas).

Moe says the thought came to him out of nowhere....can anyone say Ajokli?

My favorite assertion in this thread so far, and one I enjoy very much!

Though my opinion is that this latest turn is running parallel to the thread's intent. Regardless of whether or not Moe sent for Kell, and why, it is my [edit:]interpretation that whoever sent the prophecy wanted Kellhus to fail (though I'm personally in team Moe needed sorcery, and it's obv non-defective Dunyain are Few. Why Kellhus? Is because without pride Anasurimbor Dunyain is objectively best Dunyain. Anasurimbor is the strongest of the twelve seeds).

Whoever sent the prophecy wanted Kellhus to fail. It's Drusas Achamian's indecision that keeps him alive. In the prophecy itself (per TGO dream, anyway) Kellhus himself is presented as "the end of the world".

Achamian's hesitation in turning him in is because he knew the Mandate would completely destroy him with their Plies (early TWP) and even the Conditioned wouldn't survive a Cant of Compulsion.

Whoever sent the Prophecy really, really wanted Kellhus to fail.

It was all a dream!

He didn't have to do it in a day. We know had stashes. That could have been set up before his final translocated to the Ark. What I am saying if he made a pact, Then he wasn't gonna use anyone in the GR but Ajokli. And he'll, this woulve worked, no Kelmommas.

This is what leads me to think there was some kind of "pact" made between the two. If Kellhus really wasn't aware of Ajokli's presence in him, what else made him think he was walking into Conditioned Ground? In a place he had never been? I'd argue that it was his knowledge that the topos must exist. He was walking into hell, in which Ajoklhus really is the "master"

I use that name because I really don't understand why it has to be a binary split between the two. I don't believe there even is a line where Kellhus ends and Ajokli begins. It's been a blend, or at the very least a kind of rotation (like his assessment of the Kelmomas/Samarmas personality). Since at least Dagliash, if I remember Himself's words on the topic from somewhere.

Ajoklhus walked into the Golden Room fully expecting he was already master of the place.

edit - To elaborate a little more while my thoughts are still on this, it seems especially clear with the conversation at the IF. Kellhus was already prepared to gaze into it, because he already mastered his damnation as hunger (i.e. before the full "possession"). The afterlife is a circumstance he has already become the dominator of. That's obviously what he got out of the relationship, whereas Ajokli's presence/vision into the World was his gain from the pact.

That much seemed implicit to me, but it's also interesting to hear from another POV where it's not.

But I wonder how people reconcile Kellhus' knowledge of the "darkness" without knowledge of Ajokli. He trained for thirty years to know and conquer the darkness within, but (talking to Proyas, IIRC) he just sort of accepts it as being there, and doesn't seem concerned about his lack of mastery of it? Why? I'd argue that it's because he's already accepted it as Ajokli.

I always interpreted that section as Kellhus imposing his godhood image by referring to one of the hundred as an equal. Manipulation rather than actually his he sees himself.

That's gotta be one huge advantage of writing so vaguely. It's almost impossible to denounce anything as a retcon when there are always alternate interpretations!

Quote from: H on October 06, 2017, 04:19:31 pm

Quote from: Sausuna on October 06, 2017, 04:17:33 pm

Though, as a skin-spy, they might have access to holograms, no?

If the holograms could be projected that far, wouldn't that invalidate most of the need for skin-spies?

I meant more like having a device on them. Sort of how like they made one with a soul, one Inchoiri who could manage magic, salvaged one nuke. Perhaps they managed one hologram projector for a special Kellhus skin-spy.

Though, honestly, I can't recall when this scene happened. Unless I'm missing something

That would require a great deal of prescience I'm not convinced the Consult has. AFAIR, Serwe's rape by the haloed skin-spy was well before his rise/acceptance as the Warrior-Prophet. I'm not convinced they'd even have known rumors of the halos, let alone invested the effort and energy required to make it a part of the deception.

I rather think all the haloes presented (Mimara's included) are a matter of self-deception. Self-delusion from those who want to believe so badly they make it manifest. Certainly this is true with Serwe, who from the first thought of Kellhus as a literal God walking the earth. And why it is so telling of Kellhus' self-delusions when he begins to see them for himself.

For all his ubermensch capabilities, Kellhus has always suffered pride. I believe this to be the weakness Ajokli exploited.

edited for teh grammarz

Quote from: tleilaxu on September 22, 2017, 03:16:51 pm

The dreams of Seswatha are quite a strange thing to be honest. Part of his soul must be trapped in his mummified heart.

This thread might be difficult to parse... I'm almost thinking we make/revive one specifically to discuss Seswatha/Achamian's dreams.

But Bakker did tell the draft-reading Nascenti we could discuss director's cut notation with the greater fandom and there are sections chopped from TGO/TUC that all but confirm the "Seswatha's soul is preserved in his Heart" speculation.

That's the kind of stuff that sounds crucial to our understanding of the story. Please do?