[Alia]

I think I have heard about this. A drug that is actually good for people, maybe that would be a "blessing" rather than an enslavement. The question is, would the drug liberate people from enslavement, or would it just make you accept the ongoing enslavement that is ever present? Will a drug cause enslavement no matter how it works?

I think that if we had a drug that was easily available, socially accepted, cheap (not to mention, distributed freely by the government) and free of immediate negative effects (like hangover in case of alcohol, which to a great extent fulfils the first three points), it would be very hard for anyone to stop taking it. Our brains' reward system is very powerful. And I don't think it would liberate people from enslavement, especially if the government was the only source. It would be more like this - you spend the whole day doing your tasks, even if you hate them, because you know that in the evening, before going to bed, you would get your fix and everything would be wonderful.

[Royce]

You describe more or less the status quo today. Alcohol, caffeine, nicotine etc make enslavement more bearable to the general public, so they are legal. I was thinking more of if we could create a drug that would take away anxiety and fear, and not make you indifferent/apathetic but rather more focused on fulfilling your human potential. If it were distributed by a government, it would be a completely different kind of government(since they too take the drug). Now that could be a brave new world:)

[Alia]

Well, alcohol, for one, has nasty and immediate side effects and in addition getting drunk is not socially acceptable in certain circles, so it's not the perfect drug I was describing.
The one that you are describing - I suppose some of prescription anti-psychotics and anxiolytics could have that potential, but they are also addictive and their list of side effects is very long. Although in some cases they work miracles (I've seen that myself). So perhaps if you could create something on that basis but not addictive and easily tolerated, this would change the world and society.

[Madness]

OK. I think over here especially the only "canonic" interpretation was that what he wrote was a dystopia which criticised capitalist society.

It's the way I like to see it too.

Did anyone know that BF Skinner wrote a piece of fiction?

I missed this. Have you read it?

No, I only recently just learned about it - actually, it's been a few quick realizations that led me to conceive that many scientists I've been interested in write fiction to assert their theoretical considerations.

Just letting you know that the Aldous, in particular, may have been trying to design a blueprint to enslave the masses .

I think I have heard about this. A drug that is actually good for people, maybe that would be a "blessing" rather than an enslavement. The question is, would the drug liberate people from enslavement, or would it just make you accept the ongoing enslavement that is ever present? Will a drug cause enslavement no matter how it works?

Hmm... in this perspective, I'm offering that Aldous is telling the "elites" that they may be able to dose the masses into compliance. Though, I prefer Alia's view where he's making commentary about the "cultural daze."

Did he talk about this in other books?

I think that Island is a must read. But he's chemically-interested in many of his books. Doors of Perception, Heaven and Hell.

I think I have heard about this. A drug that is actually good for people, maybe that would be a "blessing" rather than an enslavement. The question is, would the drug liberate people from enslavement, or would it just make you accept the ongoing enslavement that is ever present? Will a drug cause enslavement no matter how it works?

I think that if we had a drug that was easily available, socially accepted, cheap (not to mention, distributed freely by the government) and free of immediate negative effects (like hangover in case of alcohol, which to a great extent fulfils the first three points), it would be very hard for anyone to stop taking it. Our brains' reward system is very powerful. And I don't think it would liberate people from enslavement, especially if the government was the only source. It would be more like this - you spend the whole day doing your tasks, even if you hate them, because you know that in the evening, before going to bed, you would get your fix and everything would be wonderful.

This is the, let's say, "negative" conception of Brave New World.

Reminds me of Equilibrium.

You describe more or less the status quo today. Alcohol, caffeine, nicotine etc make enslavement more bearable to the general public, so they are legal. I was thinking more of if we could create a drug that would take away anxiety and fear, and not make you indifferent/apathetic but rather more focused on fulfilling your human potential. If it were distributed by a government, it would be a completely different kind of government(since they too take the drug). Now that could be a brave new world:)

Again, this comes up in Food of the Gods. Have you read it yet, Royce?

The bold is likely to happen. As we continue to learn about the brain and the efficacy of nootropics increases, I expect to see the rise of a society where certain jobs, government positions, etc - to the dangerous edge - require you to amend some cognitive augmentation specific to increase your social/cultural functionality...

It's scary because the status quo shouldn't be a static thing, in my opinion. When you have powerful chemical or surgical tools to enforce the intentional ritual of things as before you affected such changed, we can only expect to see a strange ingrown situation unfold.

Well, alcohol, for one, has nasty and immediate side effects and in addition getting drunk is not socially acceptable in certain circles, so it's not the perfect drug I was describing.
The one that you are describing - I suppose some of prescription anti-psychotics and anxiolytics could have that potential, but they are also addictive and their list of side effects is very long. Although in some cases they work miracles (I've seen that myself). So perhaps if you could create something on that basis but not addictive and easily tolerated, this would change the world and society.

I think, Royce is onto something in suggesting that certain drugs, in certain circles, both slip notice as drugs, and work to orient group-think... coffee addicts, smokers, alcoholics - we all recognize our own and they shift us into particular patterns of behavior.

But I would really hope that we can affect change for the better without needing wholesale sociocultural dosing...

[Royce]

I think that Island is a must read. But he's chemically-interested in many of his books. Doors of Perception, Heaven and Hell.

Yeah I am going to read Island in the near future, and I have read Doors, which was fascinating.

Again, this comes up in Food of the Gods. Have you read it yet, Royce?

I started on that one many years ago, but I did not get through it, since I lacked the language skills and it was in my pre- internet days. I have it on my kindle now, and will read it. I have listened to many of his talks, and read other stuff of him, so I guess I have read some parts of that book already:)

I think, Royce is onto something in suggesting that certain drugs, in certain circles, both slip notice as drugs, and work to orient group-think... coffee addicts, smokers, alcoholics - we all recognize our own and they shift us into particular patterns of behavior.

But I would really hope that we can affect change for the better without needing wholesale sociocultural dosing...

Yes, certain drugs are not considered drugs because they are legal. How can something that is legal be harmful, right? WRONG:)

I guess I am hinting at an experience that will take away addictive behaviour, and see through the madness that is accepted as a kind of sick socially accepted practice. One example is in my country where you are considered a freak if you do not drink yourself into oblivion twice a week. It seems like people are so bitter and unsatisfied with how they live that they have to get completely wasted to make up for it. We have a very weird drug culture here, but I guess it is the same story everywhere where alcohol is the only accepted "party drug". Everyone is of course biased when it comes to what substances they like, and that is why I seriously believe that everything should be legal, and there should be honest and thorough information available about every single drug out there, and maybe then people would think more carefully about what they put into their bodies. I can not see any other way I`m afraid. The only real difference from how it is today is that people would know more about what the drug is. The funny thing is that we have factual evidence of how decriminalization of drugs have positive effects in regards to drug abuse, namely Portugal. Read this link.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/07/05/ten-years-after-decriminalization-drug-abuse-down-by-half-in-portugal/

A good drug(IMO) is a drug that leaves you with an insight that you should not do drugs on a regular basis. That sounds weird I know, but for me that is actually what happened.

Back to what you said Madness, I agree that sociocultural dosing seems like a bad idea, since we in some absurd way are totally dependent of the ever changing flow of difference and conflict to learn more about ourselves and society. Rigidity leads to indifference and apathy, and how can we strive for something better if there is nothing "evil" to point your finger at? Light/dark, thick/thin, up/down etc, it seems these poles are dependent of each other to have any meaning at all.

I see I often tend to throw myself of topic now and again, but I found out recently that just writing by your stream of consciousness can be fun and rewarding(for me atleast:))

[Madness]

Again, this comes up in Food of the Gods. Have you read it yet, Royce?

I started on that one many years ago, but I did not get through it, since I lacked the language skills and it was in my pre- internet days. I have it on my kindle now, and will read it. I have listened to many of his talks, and read other stuff of him, so I guess I have read some parts of that book already:)

Do it .

One example is in my country where you are considered a freak if you do not drink yourself into oblivion twice a week. It seems like people are so bitter and unsatisfied with how they live that they have to get completely wasted to make up for it. We have a very weird drug culture here, but I guess it is the same story everywhere where alcohol is the only accepted "party drug". Everyone is of course biased when it comes to what substances they like, and that is why I seriously believe that everything should be legal, and there should be honest and thorough information available about every single drug out there, and maybe then people would think more carefully about what they put into their bodies.

I think that the drinking culture exists everywhere, as does the smoking culture, the sugar culture, the coffee culture. But this hits upon more social cruxes than it does chemical ones.

I exist as I do because my environment finds it impossible to digest me and I resist dissolution in conformity. This can be uncomfortable for myself and those around me when those conflicting worldviews clash.

Whatever the dominant ritual protocols are, Royce, our not partaking in them is why people find us strange. And the chemical interaction also plays it's game; where alcoholics, for instance, are more likely to experience the same types of thinking as other alcoholics - they have both have a fluency with the ritual terms and the similar mediated experience.

Now drinking a bunch to bridge the gap isn't the answer. Neither would I argue for abstinence because of its historical pedigree (though, I might suggest we stop drinking the mostly crap we do now and start getting our alcohol intake from heavy meads and gruels again). But people cannot be abandoned as beyond recognition and communication... those divisions are only going to get dystopian worse.

A good drug(IMO) is a drug that leaves you with an insight that you should not do drugs on a regular basis. That sounds weird I know, but for me that is actually what happened.

I can grok it. It goes back to what I mentioned about ritual separation in actions from drugs.

Back to what you said Madness, I agree that sociocultural dosing seems like a bad idea, since we in some absurd way are totally dependent of the ever changing flow of difference and conflict to learn more about ourselves and society. Rigidity leads to indifference and apathy, and how can we strive for something better if there is nothing "evil" to point your finger at? Light/dark, thick/thin, up/down etc, it seems these poles are dependent of each other to have any meaning at all.

I don't think we need "evil" to strive. I don't think war is progress.

We have 7 billion brains... how many braids might we possibly create with our individual strands? If I had to word it (and qualify it with a thousandfold justifications) I would say that we strive for art in everything we do.

I see I often tend to throw myself of topic now and again, but I found out recently that just writing by your stream of consciousness can be fun and rewarding(for me atleast:))

I been on this stream of consciousness kick for years ever since I broke my thumb... I was looking for ways to rehabilitate my hand so I decided to become ambidextrous (it was a long time coming but the event spurred me to action) and a friend of mine recommended that I write stream of consciousness. I have done so. Almost a page a day for fiveish years.

[Alia]

Well, my culture is also one in which it is socially acceptable and expected to get totally drunk at the weekend. But I am lucky - I have worst hangovers ever, which taught me moderation very early on. And the trick is to find your own social niche - I am a nerd, my friends are nerds, we meet regularly, some people get drunk, some don't, some talk, some sit in the corner and read a book, it's ok. Now that I look back, meeting them probably saved my life or at least my sanity.

[Madness]

And the trick is to find your own social niche - I am a nerd, my friends are nerds, we meet regularly, some people get drunk, some don't, some talk, some sit in the corner and read a book, it's ok. Now that I look back, meeting them probably saved my life or at least my sanity.

+1 for support. However, I think Bakker is right that secluding ourselves in these comforting bubbles is not going to help the human race any. I do think we still need to figure out how to communicate across disparate gaps in recognition.

[Royce]

I don't think we need "evil" to strive. I don't think war is progress.

This is another tread, because the problem of "evil" is tricky. Many people do think that war is progress in a way, progress to rid the world of evildoers, progress for certain industries etc. So it is a matter of perspective, although I do think that it is insanity to have that perspective. Don`t you think that evil can play a role in making us better humans? I think that by observing its presence you may pay more attention to your own actions, so that you behave better. Is it all bullshit the whole deal about balance? That you need the bad to even know what good is? I have a hard time with this problem, and it is fascinating that "evil" has always been around, but maybe we can somehow evolve past the evil/good problem and strive to join hands and eventually make the planet into a spaceship and explore space as one united race of humans!:)

[sciborg2]

Rick Strassman, M.D. - “Old Testament Prophecy – A Western Model of the Psychedelic Experience”

Our clinical research with the naturally-occurring human psychedelic, DMT (N,N-dimethyltryptamine) sought to understand the relationship between the psychopharmacology of DMT and spiritual experience. Eastern religious systems, particularly Buddhist, provided the spiritual model which I, and previous investigators, believed would be most relevant to our research. However, unitive experiences of ego dissolution typical of enlightenment experiences were quite rare. Rather, volunteers actively related to what appeared to be autonomous, external alternative realties, while firmly maintaining a sense of personal identity. Old Testament descriptions of prophetic experience are replete with psychedelic content, and comport more closely with the DMT volunteers’ reports than a Buddhist model of enlightenment. This finding provides support for utilizing Old Testament prophetic literature as an alternative, Western model by which to understand and integrate contemporary psychedelic experience. It also suggests a means by which students of the Old Testament may access the state of consciousness out of which emerged prophetic Old Testament text.

[Royce]

This is the "spirit molecule" guy right?

Many people do suggest that "true" religion do have their roots in psychedelics(mushroom cults etc). It may even explain why religion today makes less and less sense. They tell you to read one book. That is it. I am going to be a bit rude here and suggest that you most likely are a very simpleminded person if you read one book, and end up convinced. I can understand more people who feel they connect with something "higher" then themselves through direct experience, whether it is meditation, yoga or substances. Although I do not personally think that there is anything "higher" at all, only that humanness is overwhelmingly more complex than our narrow perception leads us to believe. These techniques and substances will crack your head wide open.

[Madness]

Missed this before, Royce.

I don't think we need "evil" to strive. I don't think war is progress.

This is another tread, because the problem of "evil" is tricky. Many people do think that war is progress in a way, progress to rid the world of evildoers, progress for certain industries etc. So it is a matter of perspective, although I do think that it is insanity to have that perspective. Don`t you think that evil can play a role in making us better humans? I think that by observing its presence you may pay more attention to your own actions, so that you behave better. Is it all bullshit the whole deal about balance? That you need the bad to even know what good is? I have a hard time with this problem, and it is fascinating that "evil" has always been around, but maybe we can somehow evolve past the evil/good problem and strive to join hands and eventually make the planet into a spaceship and explore space as one united race of humans!:)

Lol - well, I think something has always been around that some people have qualified as "evil." And I don't think the Lifeboat Earth is going to change our perspectives in this situation. Perhaps, greed is "evils" root because "evil" is often committed to achieve some perceived gain over another (I often make mention that this happens at the cost of greater gains that might be achieved through cooperation).

But yes, even though I think some people would still seek to be greedy in committing to any endeavour, as a speciest (I guess) and as a member of species that knows it thrives on cycles of life and suffers under cycles of death (diverse vs. collapsing ecosystems, evolutionary adaptions in as little as generation, etc), I would say we need to work to distribute ourselves away from Earth as soon as "humanly" possible (but especially in the sense that portions of the planet needing immediate and possibly permanent human absence to recover). Enter the Solar-System Age.

Work on a coordinated human effort towards that and the second problem naturally becomes should the worst happen, "Earth Inhabitable," how do we ensure that our colonies can survive without support from Gaia?

Completely aside, but did you know that private companies are already working on how to legislate "owning property" on the moon because otherwise it's unfeasible to work on gathering resources from the moon unless you are assured propriety...

[Royce]

Work on a coordinated human effort towards that and the second problem naturally becomes should the worst happen, "Earth Inhabitable," how do we ensure that our colonies can survive without support from Gaia?

Good question. Probably someone from the future has to come back and answer that one

Maybe we strike lucky and find something that is exactly the same.

Completely aside, but did you know that private companies are already working on how to legislate "owning property" on the moon because otherwise it's unfeasible to work on gathering resources from the moon unless you are assured propriety...

I am not sure how to respond to this. There is just no end to the lunacy is there? So it won`t be long till we read in the paper: "WEED WILL BE ILLEGAL ON THE MOON WHEN WE GET THERE". People are just so obsessed with moneymaking and control. Bring on the dragon of chaos!:) I Seriously want to vipe dust of some Bakunin books and dabble with anarchism again(not really serious:))

[sciborg2]

There is just no end to the lunacy is there?

Tell me this was intentional, as it's just so delicious to see that word when talking about moon colonization.

Yeah, my hatred of corporations is making me think we need to pump government funds into making sure the U.N. claims the moon as an international venture.

Also, going back to Pinchbeck's Breaking Open the Head. Have a friend who's going to try to use successive hits of DMT to get to those alien landscapes and I need to get him to let me monitor.

[Royce]

Tell me this was intentional, as it's just so delicious to see that word when talking about moon colonization.

Lol, I wish I could say it was

Also, going back to Pinchbeck's Breaking Open the Head. Have a friend who's going to try to use successive hits of DMT to get to those alien landscapes and I need to get him to let me monitor.

Wow, you must write it down if you are going to monitor, and share it with us if that is ok with him/her. I would love to try that myself sometime.