[profgrape]

Something that struck me after a recent re-read of WLW: it doesn't make a lot of sense for Yatwer to work against the Great Ordeal through Sorweel.  If anything, it seemed like she wants to prevent No-God from returning.  These two lines from her POV seem to refer to the stillborn epidemic during the FA:

So many.  So many children born...
So many taken.

The whole point (ostensibly) for the Great Ordeal is to stop the World being shut from the Outside and the cycle of birth ending. 

It seems that either:

1. Khellus' motivation is something other than what he's stated.  Which wouldn't exactly be shocking becuase, well, he's that kind of dude.  But it's one of the only pieces of evidence I can find in the books that actually points to his having an ulterior motive.

2. Sorweel is wrong about Yatwer's motivation.  RSB clearly has a fondness for unreliable narrators (Akka in PON) and it wouldn't be a shock if Yatwer is after something less straightforward than killing the Aspect-Emperor.  It could be as simple as his being a "sleeper" as has been stated in other threads: Khellus successfully prevents the No-God from returning and then Yatwer gives Sorweel the go-ahead to salt Khellus. 

[Wielokropek]

I don't know... those lines are pretty ambiguous. There's nothing in that passage that seems to prime us for thinking about the apocalypse; nevertheless, you could be right about them referencing Yatwer's motivations. It would make a lot more sense if Kellhus ends up being the No-God, because then Yatwer would be giving giving Sorweel a tool for vengeance.

The watching men gasp for the sorrow of a mother's endless Giving ...

and

"What the Mother gives ..." he cries out to the King. "You must take!"

Make me think that Yatwer's line is more about acknowledging her endless capacity for giving. Yatwer is the mother of birth; therefore, when children are born, they are taken from her.

[Cüréthañ]

Always struck me as a simple battle for souls.
"So much stolen..."

[Callan S.]

I'd think simple bloody minded possesiveness about authority. Try nabbing some crooks yourself - the police do NOT like you doing that at all.

Authority likes to use it's authority to maintain it's authority. Because oor-thoor-rat-taye!

[Madness]

Something that struck me after a recent re-read of WLW: it doesn't make a lot of sense for Yatwer to work against the Great Ordeal through Sorweel.  If anything, it seemed like she wants to prevent No-God from returning.  These two lines from her POV seem to refer to the stillborn epidemic during the FA:

So many.  So many children born...
So many taken.

The whole point (ostensibly) for the Great Ordeal is to stop the World being shut from the Outside and the cycle of birth ending. 

I seem to remember a professorplum on Three-Seas? Cheers, regardless.

I agree with Wielokropek:

There's nothing in that passage that seems to prime us for thinking about the apocalypse; nevertheless, you could be right about them referencing Yatwer's motivations.

However, I do think that the perspectives of the Gods and the White-Luck get the lucky advantage of ultimate non-sequiturs because they seem to be able to reference the narrative entire from the objective standpoint of what will happen, even if they fill in gaps because they don't have all the details.

I also think that you may have rejected some considerations. But to the points at hand.

1. Khellus' motivation is something other than what he's stated.  Which wouldn't exactly be shocking becuase, well, he's that kind of dude.  But it's one of the only pieces of evidence I can find in the books that actually points to his having an ulterior motive.

So you reject the narrative implications that the Gods are blind to the actual being of the No-God? Because that seems to easily frame the tension between the Gods stringing up Kellhus' noose and waiting (erroneously, probably) to see what Kellhus plans on doing...

2. Sorweel is wrong about Yatwer's motivation.  RSB clearly has a fondness for unreliable narrators (Akka in PON) and it wouldn't be a shock if Yatwer is after something less straightforward than killing the Aspect-Emperor.  It could be as simple as his being a "sleeper" as has been stated in other threads: Khellus successfully prevents the No-God from returning and then Yatwer gives Sorweel the go-ahead to salt Khellus. 

Sorweel is constantly coming to greater realizations - we can't very well deny the validity of a coming of age tale where revelations actually change the character's perspective and offer wider focus. So he is bound to be unreliable, it doesn't necessarily add or detract to your argument, if we reject only Sorweel's perspective.

The question you've asked, I think, really suggests that the God of Birth should notice that all babies are stillborn. And that itself asks whether the souls that are denied mortal frames are sucked into the No-God Soul-Vacuum, whether they go back to the New Soul Repository, or whether they shuffle along to Oblivion or Redemption (as sinless innocents)?

[Ciogli]

If Yatwer is truly blind to the No-God, all the subsequent effects would be put down to other factors. So she can only see the effects that Kellhuss changes have wrought, and would move against him as if he was the prime mover in stealing souls. It may be that if Yatwer is not confined to linear time she may be reacting to the future changes that the reawakening No-God causes and thinking that Kellhuss is the culprit because of her blindness to it.

[Wilshire]

If Yatwer is truly blind to the No-God, all the subsequent effects would be put down to other factors. So she can only see the effects that Kellhuss changes have wrought, and would move against him as if he was the prime mover in stealing souls. It may be that if Yatwer is not confined to linear time she may be reacting to the future changes that the reawakening No-God causes and thinking that Kellhuss is the culprit because of her blindness to it.

I think this is likely. Kellhus is basically the only big player other than the consult/No-God. Anything that negatively affects the God's will inevitably be attributed to Kellhus.

[Madness]

If Yatwer is truly blind to the No-God, all the subsequent effects would be put down to other factors. So she can only see the effects that Kellhuss changes have wrought, and would move against him as if he was the prime mover in stealing souls. It may be that if Yatwer is not confined to linear time she may be reacting to the future changes that the reawakening No-God causes and thinking that Kellhuss is the culprit because of her blindness to it.

So because the No-God rises during the Second Apocalypse, Yatwer assumes Kellhus is responsible and so moves across time to try and hinder his plans?

Just trying to get our understanding of motivation straight.

[locke]

that's actually pretty humorous/ironic if it's true.

[Ciogli]

Yes, if Yatwer is looking at the Second Apocalypse from the end of time, she only sees the effects and not the cause. Remember the slave Porsparian when he talks to Sorweel , when Sorweel talks about the possibilityof the SA he dismisses it as fantasy, because that is what Yatwer believes. So she is seeing the SA and cannot comprehend the No-God, and so attaches all the effects to the rise of Kellhuss and so sets up destiny for the coming of the WLW. Thinking she is averting the SA, and its disastourus effects.

[Wilshire]

that's actually pretty humorous/ironic if it's true.

Especially if she actually does kill Kellhus and that becomes the reason for the Ordeal's failure and the eventual rise of the No-God and the shutting of the world.

[Ciogli]

Although if the WLW is in Monmen it would be a hell of a walk to get to the Ordeal in time to slay Kellhuss before the advent of the No-God.

[EkyannusIII]

Tangent: does the strong opposition of the goddess of Motherhood to Kellhus imply that his support for women's lib in the New Empire is somewhat self-serving and spotty?

[profgrape]

If Yatwer is truly blind to the No-God, all the subsequent effects would be put down to other factors. So she can only see the effects that Kellhuss changes have wrought, and would move against him as if he was the prime mover in stealing souls. It may be that if Yatwer is not confined to linear time she may be reacting to the future changes that the reawakening No-God causes and thinking that Kellhuss is the culprit because of her blindness to it.

That is a *great* way to this, Ciogli!  I think I had fallen into the trap of evaluating Yatwer's motives from a human perspective.

The question you've asked, I think, really suggests that the God of Birth should notice that all babies are stillborn.

That's the bit that's bothering me.  The No-God is just so perfectly opposed to Yatwer that it feels like she should have been able to connect the dots.   The ignorance (or denial) of existential threats seems like the sort of trait we'd expect in a human leader, doesn't it?

Crackpot: if she's looking back from the end of time, it could be that her view is so vast that she can only pick up the broad strokes.  The ~2000 years that elapsed between the FA and SA might be compressed.  So from her perspective, the stillborn epidemic from the FA is essentially happening at the same time as Khellus' emergence just prior to the SA? 

Tangent: does the strong opposition of the goddess of Motherhood to Kellhus imply that his support for women's lib in the New Empire is somewhat self-serving and spotty?

If Kellhus knows that Yatwer's completely misreading the situation with the SA, the Shortest Path might be to marginalize her.  And I kind of think of his support for women and abolishing slavery is pure pragmatism -- oppression is bad for business in the long-term.  But oppression is great for Yatwer as it ensures her a large body of worshipers.  So much irony in the Yatwer-Kellhus conflict!

[Madness]

that's actually pretty humorous/ironic if it's true.

Especially if she actually does kill Kellhus and that becomes the reason for the Ordeal's failure and the eventual rise of the No-God and the shutting of the world.

+1.

Although if the WLW is in Monmen it would be a hell of a walk to get to the Ordeal in time to slay Kellhuss before the advent of the No-God.

I'm betting that Kellhus makes an appearance at Momemn while the Ordeal fights at Dagliash...

Is it just me or is anyone dying for more epic Bakker sword fights? Kellhus pre-Sorcery (Mekeritrig, the Steppe, Cnaiur, Anwurat, Skin-Spies) and Cnaiur (Kiyuth, the Steppe, Kellhus, Anwurat camp, FUCKING SARCELLUS!!!) just weren't enough .

Tangent: does the strong opposition of the goddess of Motherhood to Kellhus imply that his support for women's lib in the New Empire is somewhat self-serving and spotty?

Well, I'd say no - but only because Yatwer is the Goddess of all of humankind's abject and forgotten, not just women (subsequently guaranteeing her the most adherents, always, as the bottom rung of the social pyramid). Birth is being personified as female but it accounts for the "bounty of Mother Earth" type traditions rather than being the Goddess Femina, neh?

So from her perspective, the stillborn epidemic from the FA is essentially happening at the same time as Khellus' emergence just prior to the SA? 

Or more likely, in this view, from her perspective the stillborn epidemic of the FA bleeds right into the stillborn epidemic of the SA and Anasurimbor Kellhus is the most glorious human leader... well, ever probably.

But oppression is great for Yatwer as it ensures her a large body of worshipers.  So much irony in the Yatwer-Kellhus conflict!

+1.