[Wilshire]

Kayutas unleashed is something I hope to see in TUC. He surely must have his father's abilities of limb (war) .

limb = tree. Pragma training. Its all circular.

I wonder if using the meta-gnosis in the Ark is going to be problematic--not only is it going to be covered with the oldest/strongest wards anywhere, it's also so topoi that doing something as 'deeply marked' as meta-gnosis would do weird things.

Not sure about the topoi, but the Consult probably spent thousands of years singing wards around their precious home.

[The Sharmat]

Golgotterath has to truly be something special if the Consult is still willing to reside there despite it almost certainly being a thin spot dangling over Hell. Their fetid souls are so utterly rife with sin I imagine they attract quite a lot of attention.

[Madness]

Their fetid souls are so utterly rife with sin I imagine they attract quite a lot of attention.

I wonder if any of the Gods in particular have picked up on them.

[Wilshire]

Golgotterath has to truly be something special if the Consult is still willing to reside there despite it almost certainly being a thin spot dangling over Hell. Their fetid souls are so utterly rife with sin I imagine they attract quite a lot of attention.

I agree, though I'd like to be picky and say its not "hell" but rather "outside". I think the only instance of "hell" we have might be the description of what the IF shows. If not there, then I think Bakker has carefully avoided that word. Then again, I could be wrong. I should probably look things up before I call it out .

[mrganondorf]

Golgotterath has to truly be something special if the Consult is still willing to reside there despite it almost certainly being a thin spot dangling over Hell. Their fetid souls are so utterly rife with sin I imagine they attract quite a lot of attention.

I agree, though I'd like to be picky and say its not "hell" but rather "outside". I think the only instance of "hell" we have might be the description of what the IF shows. If not there, then I think Bakker has carefully avoided that word. Then again, I could be wrong. I should probably look things up before I call it out .

LOL, I don't think you meant this, but the first thing that popped into my head was that the Ark is a topoi close to heaven!  That the inverse fire shows them heaven and it is so pure, they know they don't belong!

Kudos for pointing that out, can't wait to see what he's hiding...

[Cüréthañ]

All souls are dangling over hell.  The connection to the outside is through the soul.  Topoi are not portals to another 'place' any more than the outside is a physical location, imo.

[Wilshire]

But what of the descriptions we have of Topoi, being a kind of "high point", suggesting some kind of closeness to the outside. Words like "frayed boundaries" and other descriptions seem to allude to the fact that, given enough trauma, a wormwhole of sorts could be punched through the fabric of space and into the outside. At least thats the feeling I always got.

[mrganondorf]

All souls are dangling over hell.  The connection to the outside is through the soul.  Topoi are not portals to another 'place' any more than the outside is a physical location, imo.

You made me think of Jonathan Edwards

"The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else"

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/edwards/sermons.sinners.html

[Cüréthañ]

Yes, the analogies to distance and place muddy the waters. 

Physical things are related to their meanings in the Outside - unnatural amounts of transformative power bleed through in Topoi or is otherwise channeled by sorcerers.

Its more like translucence than proximity, I think.  For example, the Few see fixed relations between meaning and being more clearly, the Judging Eye seems to veiw this relationship from a causal perspective, but neither of them see further. 

Topoi seem to allow the Hell parts of the Outside leak through because they are probably created by infusing the physical area with meaning related to suffering.

It doesn't matter where the damned die though, they will still end up in their own Hell. 

After looking in the Inverse Fire (which the consult venerate), proximity to a Topoi would probably just be like sitting near a nice warm heater.

Regarding the gods, they just don't seem that interested in the damned.  Ciphrang get those souls.

[Wilshire]

Not sure where you got those distinctions.

You are using Hell as a place "in" the outside, which to me implies that the opposite is in there somewhere (heaven?). I don't believe a happy place has been described, just pain/suffering or nothingness. Both those options seems like hell to me.

Regarding the gods, they just don't seem that interested in the damned.  Ciphrang get those souls.

I thought Ciphrang only got the souls of those that summon them.

Interesting distinction between damned and Gods. If there is some kind of catch-all Hell, if there  a "god" presiding over it? If the Gods are what cause damnation, which God decides a damnable action from a commendable one?

Maybe souls are assigned a supervisory god upon birth, and their soul is always judged based on that Gods opinions regardless of how the person turns out. i.e. Gilgaol would damn anyone who wasn't warlike even if they where "good" people.

[Cüréthañ]

The more powerful entities of the Outside dwell in "sub realities" that conform to their desires. This is what makes piety and devotion so important: the more favour an individual can secure in the Outside (primarily through the worship of Gods and the honouring of ancestors), the greater the chance of finding bliss rather than torment in the afterlife.

According to Psatma, one must 'reach' for whichever entity one hopes to have intervene - which implies the Gods themselves don't judge as much as select the souls with attributes (judgements?) that suit their purpose or interest.  So a soul like Conphas' would be of little interest to anyone besides Ciphrrang.

Iirc, Mimarra turns TJE on one of the Skin Eaters (Galian, I think) and sees the future of his soul as being passed around in the afterlife from Ciphrang to Ciphrang as they feast on his suffering.

[Wilshire]

What I get stuck on is the Yatwer afterlife. The Yatwer devotees expect to suffer if chosen by Yatwer, something about "knowing your tormentor" sticks out in my mind, but I know if thats a quote or not. It would seem that reaching your chosen deity does not guarantee bliss, which further makes me think that the TTT description is false, at least in part. There is no guarantee of "bliss", and there might not be any at all, just a construct of the human mind of what should happen if you live your life correctly. The Holy should be rewarded... right?

[mrganondorf]

Wilshire, are you referring to the bit in WLW p. 240?  Convo between Psatma and Meppa.  It's a few pages into chapter 8--i don't have it digitally or i would quote it, but it seems like a long relevant section.

[Cüréthañ]

That is an arguement between a Fanim Cish and an Inrithi priestess as seen by a Zeum sorcerer.  I'm more wary of lies and deceit there than in the Glossary.
Clearly there is some truth in what each of them says though, and I'm only really making a point on how the outside is organised rather than whether the Gods comprise some form of heaven (which I don't think is so).  But I suspect I'd much rather spend the afterlife celebrated by Gierra than being tormented by lesser Ciphrang

"The fat will be eaten, of course. But the high holy? The faithful? They shall be celebrated!"

[The Sharmat]

The Ciphrang celebrate too, I think. They just celebrate different things and in different ways than most of the Gods. The Inchoroi would understand them well, I think.