[SilentRoamer]

So how Deep does Golgotterath go?

Are we all in agreement we expect it to be the worst Topos in Earwa? The mostly thinly seperated place from the Outside?

A place worse than Cil Aujus, a place in itself so bad that an eye can grow in your heart, one which you try to see out of... If thought can take form to such an extent in Cil Aujus what could happen in Golgotteraths deepest depths?

I wonder if Golgotterath is bottomless?

[Cüréthañ]

I wonder if Golgotterath is bottomless?

I'd say the consult rapes the ass off everything thereabouts. 

[Simas Polchias]

Are we all in agreement we expect it to be the worst Topos in Earwa? The mostly thinly seperated place from the Outside?

My mood is rather consulty & unholy, so please let me suspect Min-Uroikas will fade against the background of Kellhus' Ordeal. Just imagine a moving topos, planned by dunyain & fueled by devoted zealots, going right into the outskirts of hell. A big torpedo for a big ship.

[Wilshire]

Hmmm a moving topos. I wish there was an easy way to measure suffering. That treck across the deserts of Agongorea will certainly be terrible.

I'm not 100% Gologtterath will be the "worst" topos. How many millenium did the slaves suffer in Cil' Aujas before the Inchoroi arrived? How does one measure atrocities, and suffereing, and how much to tip the scale into topos, and are there even levels of topoi? Maybe the area simply is, or is not, a topos.

Either way, Golgotterath will be full of awful.

[Francis Buck]

Hmmm a moving topos. I wish there was an easy way to measure suffering. That treck across the deserts of Agongorea will certainly be terrible.

I'm not 100% Gologtterath will be the "worst" topos. How many millenium did the slaves suffer in Cil' Aujas before the Inchoroi arrived? How does one measure atrocities, and suffereing, and how much to tip the scale into topos, and are there even levels of topoi? Maybe the area simply is, or is not, a topos.

Either way, Golgotterath will be full of awful.

I think there are definitely levels of topoi. Look at the differences between the Mengedda, where the No-God fell, and Cil-Aujas. At least from my own personal perspective, Cil-Aujas seemed way, way worse. The lines between Hell and the World were so blurred that a Wight formed, seemingly capable of bringing the Frame of Hell with him and claiming Worldly souls (after all, the damned want nothing more than to push their suffering onto others). I, personally, think Golgotterath will be the worst of the worst, particularly deep inside the Ark. This thing was going around the Universe wiping out planets for how knows how long, along with the Inchoroi doing Christ knows what horrible shit INSIDE the Ark. Even the brief snippet we get from Akka's dreams of Seswatha and Nau-Cayuti traversing the depths seem far more similar to Cil-Aujas than something like the Mengedda.

I'd also cite the Mop as a "minor" topos, more along the line of Mengedda, but even less so. These trees were "regurgitating" skeletons, after all, something we know is linked with topoi via the Battleplain.

So yeah, I think  topoi can range from Cil-Aujas/Golgotterath-level "Hell on earth" type shit, to less extreme stuff like the Mop and Mengedda (though that last one is weird, since it seems like the place where the No-God died should be absolutely terrible, but instead its features are more in line with the Mop...with the added factor that if you die in the Battleplain, your soul may not ever leave it. I suspect that this is true. 

[Cüréthañ]

Never had Seswatha suffered such a horror, diffuse enough to ignore moment by moment, but possessing a tidal pro­fundity, as though all that he cherished lay exposed, not just to harm, but to some horrifically contrary truth. Intellectually he understood the why and the wherefore, even as his vis­cera quailed. They walked the pits of Min-Uroikas, a place where the Inchoroi, in their wickedness, had gnawed at boundaries between the world and the Outside for thousands of years. And now the howl of their damnation lay near...
This was a topos, a place where hard lines of reality had become shading. They could hear it in the cavernous echoes. Gibbering screams in the scrape of their steps. Groaning multitudes in the rattle of their coughs. Inhuman roaring in the ring of their voices. And they could see it, as though images had been stitched to their periphery. Many-jawed faces, snapping out of the black. Weeping children... Achamian lost count of the times he saw Nau-Cayûti abruptly whirl, trying to catch apparitions in the certainty of direct sight.

... Even their reflections, stretched grotesque across the surrounding walls and haloed with an unnatural nimbus of black.
-TTT

my bold.


Seems pretty clear, according to Akka's dreams at least.
A couple years later.

(click to show/hide)

They ascended what Siqu called the Toir’inskiri, the Grave-with-no-bottom...

         “The Iyisku...”

         “They made this...”

         “To be their...”

         “Sssshurrogate world...”

         The vast well that plumbed Golgotterath’s Northern Horn.

         “Now... now...”

         “It belongs to me...”

         They climbed to the world’s most wicked summit, where none but the dead and the damned descended.

         “The very...”

         “Stronghold...”

         “Of ssssalvation!”

This potentially makes Golgotteroth the oldest topos we know of.
Cil Aujis fell during the Apocalypse, and the Mengedda topos was created at it's conclusion.

(click to show/hide)

A pit bent into a circle, the most perfect of the Conserving Forms...

Sounds like the horns create some kind of circuit so that Shae's platform seems to be ascending within a circular loop ... or a figure 8.

I like the idea of a travelling topos. Tend to think Wutteat is one based on his undead state.

Roll up for Kellhus' Carnies from Hell!

[Wilshire]

I thought that the Topoi were bound to the ground, to Earwa, and to the suffering of souled beings. I don't think the suffering of animals or sranc count towards the atrocity cap. The thousands of planets the Inchoroi visited may not have contributed much to the Arc being a topos, considering they probably didn't spend nearly as long at each one as they did Earwa (land, pew-pew the stone age inhabitants, boot up the IF, still damned, next planet, land...) and therefore didn't start much of their atrocities until Earwa.

Cil'Aujas was likely a topos thousands of years before the Inchoroi even landed. Time seems to be a defining characteristic here, and I think the Skin Eaters spending day after day in the dark compounded the effect of the topos. If the Menggeca Plains was a mountain labyrinth, I think the Holy War would have had a similar fate as the Skin Eaters, going mad under the ground.

The Mop being a topos is an interesting idea, but I think its too large an area without enough suffering to be a true one. I think its likely a different kind of Outside influence we are not fully aware of yet.

I guess its possible that the millions that died when the Arc crashed could have boosted the Inchoroi's initial numbers, and the pit of aborted souls certainly helped, but I'm still not sure how the Arc could "catch-up" to Cil'. However, I do believe that Golgotterath should be the worst Topos, so there must be something I've missed. We do know that the death of the No-God made a topos, and I imagine his creation probably had a similar effect.

(click to show/hide)

Also, the IF might generate its own little topos field that bleeds into the rest of the world around it. This alone might have slowly transformed the Arc into a traveling Topos.

I do like the idea of the Arc being a traveling topos. If there are other ensouled beings on other planets, and if there has been a lot of suffering on the Arc at each planet, whether its from the natives of the inchoroi themselves, then the Arc could easily be the deepest topos, the topos bound to the ship as its "place". I don't think something like a moving army could be a topos, since its not tied to any one place.

[Garet Jax]

I do like the idea of the Arc being a traveling topos. If there are other ensouled beings on other planets, and if there has been a lot of suffering on the Arc at each planet, whether its from the natives of the inchoroi themselves, then the Arc could easily be the deepest topos, the topos bound to the ship as its "place". I don't think something like a moving army could be a topos, since its not tied to any one place.

This reminds me of something that HappEnt said at Westeros.  If people are the holes or pinpricks in the fabric between the outside and Earwa, couldn't a mass amount of people "suffering" be somewhat of a moving Topos?  Each soul could be a tiny Topos, add them all up and you might have enough "hell seeping through" to create a moving Topos.

Also, if Sranc were conceived in Golgotterath (worst Topos/a lot of hell seeping through), and the Ordeal is now consuming Sranc, couldn't that also be a contributing factor to "hell seeping through"?

Not sure what I think about the Ordeal being an actual Topos, but food for thought.

[Wilshire]

Only if beings without souls count towards the suffering total.

Also, for reasons I can't explain, the Topoi we know are tied to a place, rather than the specific souls of the suffering. The ground somehow is stained and the effects of the topos affect an area around the sufferers, at least initially. Once the topos is created, those that enter it feel the affects of it

Is this different than bruising the Onta? I thought it was tied to the soul, but since soulless objects can hold the stain, it could be that the body, rather than the soul it holds, is what is bruised. Wonder if the two effects are related somehow.

EDIT:
Noteworthy that the topos we know are where sorcerers are known to have been. Lots of Quya in mansions, Golgotterath, and Megedda plains (No-God arguably the most powerful sorcerous artifact we have seen)

[Garet Jax]

Reminds me of where I read about the different levels of "sin".  Maybe on the Tusk?


Something along the lines of; Murder is one of the most heinous sins, murdering with sorcery, even more so. 


Double sin?

[Cüréthañ]

@ Wilshire.  My speculation is that the horns are situated above the Golgotteroth topos rather than it being contained wholly with the Ark. 
The "pit bent into a circle" that Shae uses to sustain himself was perhaps constructed as a home for the swimming/flying pilots of the Ark (note the Golden court is at the tip of one of the horns) and is a conduit for the Tekne power source that propels and steers the Ark, but has been sorcerously re-purposed by making use of the topos the inchies have created.

However, Wutteat is dead - he is sustained by a hell within him, according to NG.  Thus a moving topos... ?  It seems that he was first killed by Ciogli during the Cuno/Inchoroi wars.

Cil'Aujis' topos may well have been created at it's fall.  The indications are that the betrayal of Nostol and Nil'Giccas and the curse laid down by Gin'yursis are key to it's formation.
The suffering of the slaves is an important precursor, but the slaughter and betrayal that accompanied the fall actually created the unrestricted breakdown.

"The gates are no longer guarded."

To me, this suggests that the nonmen were engaged in trying to manufacture a type of" topos" that instead connected to the spaces between the gods. 
NG's rumminations on kneeling deep and holy places within the earth and Gin'Yursis' appellation as Holy Siqu seem to hint strongly at this interpretation.  Why, after all, would the Quya want to create portals to Hell?

[mrganondorf]

Moving topos is too cool

With all the speculation that the Inchoroi might be secret good guys, maybe descending into the depths will be like Mimara's experience with the chorae--seeing through the rind.

I wonder if Kellhus will come across the same pool Seswatha and Nau-Cayuti bathed in, could be neat.  Maybe there will be a moment like Gandalf and fire demon falling.

[The Sharmat]

Do we know that the atrocities committed onboard the Ark outside of Earwa "count"? I think perhaps that the power to form topoi is a property Earwas possesses because it was the world the Inchoroi were searching for, much like how sorcery is likely a side effect of this as well. If that's true, then Golgotterath could not have begun conversion into a topos until after the fall.

Keep in mind also that Golgotterath was utterly empty for a number of millennia. That's plenty of time for places like Cil-Aujas to catch up with their lead.

I believe that Golgotterath is a powerful topos. More powerful than Mengedda or the Mop. However, I doubt it's anything as bad as Cil-Aujas. The primary reason? Because Cil-Aujas would be incredibly dangerous to live in as a base. Especially for ones as damned as the likes of Aurang, Aurax, Mekeretrig, and Shauriatas. One Wight-of-the-Mountain scale event and they could lose everything. And I imagine events like that are frequent in places like Cil-Aujas. The Skin-Eaters weren't in there very long.

Now it is of course worth mentioning that many Sranc and Bashrag lived within Cil-Aujas and survived unscathed, and likely had for many years. However, remember, the Sranc and Bashrag are weapon races. Constructs of the Inchoroi. They have no souls. This means that things from Outside are blind to them, just as the Gods are blind to the No-God. Ranking members of the Consult that possessed souls, like the Twins and Shauriatas, can claim no such protection. Hell would reach out and claim them quickly, attracted by their deep bruises.

The suffering of the slaves is an important precursor, but the slaughter and betrayal that accompanied the fall actually created the unrestricted breakdown.

I will add to this speculation that the suffering of the slaves in Cil-Aujas was a very new thing compared to the horrors of the Ark. Given that the Emwama failed to rise up against the Non-Men multiple times through history, we can infer that their general treatment for most of history by the Non-men was no more horrible than the later men of the Three Seas would treat their own slaves.

I'd argue that the extreme suffering of the slaves in Cil-Aujas came much later. We have never seen an Intact Non-man. I'd wager that the only difference between an Intact and an Erratic is predictability. The Intact have to keep their memories going too. They may well have been aware of the Erratic method of reinforcing memories by inflicting post traumatic stress disorder upon oneself. Perhaps the Non-men of Cil-Aujas feared their inevitable fate more than Non-men of other mansions, and that they turned to their slaves to preserve their memories-through inflicting horror upon those that stirred their memories. Perhaps every Cunuroi of any rank in Cil-Aujas had their own Elju, and picked slaves that they loved, and so punished, to remember said love. An entire mansion of almost-erratics.

[Cüréthañ]

The fact that the Inchoroi failed to incite the Eamwa to rebellion after arming them with chorae supports your argument, Sharmat.

[mrganondorf]

Now it is of course worth mentioning that many Sranc and Bashrag lived within Cil-Aujas and survived unscathed, and likely had for many years. However, remember, the Sranc and Bashrag are weapon races. Constructs of the Inchoroi. They have no souls. This means that things from Outside are blind to them, just as the Gods are blind to the No-God. Ranking members of the Consult that possessed souls, like the Twins and Shauriatas, can claim no such protection. Hell would reach out and claim them quickly, attracted by their deep bruises.

@ The Sharmat - that's awesome!  If only the derived could rebel, they might want to kill their masters to end their slavery since they would care noting for the Consult's goals.  I wonder how one of the derived perceive something like the Seal or a Zioz?  If they can't or have trouble, then Kellhus may reek extra havoc with the meta-gnostic-daimos.