[codebread]

I here ya codebread.  Certainly not my intent to make people feel ostracized, and for that, I do apologize.

I was feeling attacked. As if I had somehow betrayed people helping organizing this whole thing. It takes a lot of hours to plan, a lot of hours to coordinate things, time and money to get swag (posters, patches, etc.), etc. etc. etc. And I got upset, because i felt that somehow me spending all this effort therefore makes me owe someone who showed up after the party and was upset we didn't save them cake. I am not a trained monkey, I don't preform on demand, though probably I would for tips . Because I felt attacked, I immediately went on the defensive - which was stupid.

Seems a bit strange to immediately go on the attack - calling me names no less - because I didn't do something they wanted.  Again, as if I haven't spent hundreds of hours facilitating this communities existence. Now, I can see how my comment could be read in a way that makes it sound bad. I do. And again, I'm sincerely sorry for that. But, I don't think there is a generous way to interpret Spooky's post, but I'll let them defend their position should they choose too.

Honestly, I understand and sympathize with your position. I co-own a small company and I frequently organize or sit at the helm of various things, so I know the feeling of people being ungrateful and thinking they are owed something. I just wanted to poke you to be better than them, considering you're one of the few who help run this community.

As for the rest of it, I was really just getting at dismissing how difficult it is for some people to go by simply saying, "come next year". Hell, I'm in Boston and I couldn't afford the time or money to make the trip. Of course I'm also not going to bitch and moan if I don't get to see/hear/read what happened that weekend, but I can understand if people feel left out just because they simply had no means to attend. Assuming it's as simple as being willing to go is what's out of touch with reality. I'm really just borrowing an argument from discussions about education for those living in poverty; "just go to college" isn't as easy as it sounds for everyone.

TL;DR No one owes anyone anything, except gratitude for you guys putting the event together and sharing information. Just gotta be nice to each other because there's barely any of us in comparison to other communities.

Edit: Also, yeah, Spooky was more out of line than you were if you ask me. I'm just holding you to a higher standard I guess

[Wilshire]

[Edit: tleilaxu apologized below. Thank you for helping us keep this forum great ]
While not the first offender in this particular thread, I believe so far that it was the most egregious.

Merch, you can paint is as the evil empire, go ahead. I don't believe it. Without us WWII would of been lost and Europe wouldn't exist. Get down on your knees and give thanks to Merica' everyday of your God giving life.

"My country saved yours 70 years ago, now get down and suck my tiny circumcised and diabetes-ridden American cock and accept every shitty thing we've done since then", MSJ said as he fired his assault rifle from the top of his mobility scooter, accidentally killing an unarmed black man in the process. "Thank the Lawd Jesus for our every burger and french fry" he shouted loudly while driving over the Nigger's corpse and tipping his MAGA cap.

Honestly, resorting to name calling is embarrassing. If you have to resort to straw man arguments you might as well not be posting.

Or, put another way, "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all".


tleilaxu, what was your goal in posting this?

[TLEILAXU]

I apologize, I didn't actually mean for the tone to be so scathing in that post, it's just the best response I could gather right at that moment to the "get on your knees comment". I couldn't just leave it alone because it indicates a pretty toxic attitude, but at the same time I was stumped as to how to properly respond to it, so I thought caricaturic humour would be appropriate but now I realize what I wrote is kind of a mess.

[Wilshire]

Thanks, tleilaxu.

I edited my last post there about 30 times because I had a similar issue. If you'd like to edit yours in-thread and, eh, rephrase it, please do.

I didn't see that comment by MSJ, sorry. Tensions are high, clearly both comments are out of line - whether in jest or otherwise, given the present tone.

[MSJ]

Well, Tleilaxu, I'm sorry but I don't see it as a caricature. Quite frankly Im offended, tbh. You don't know me or my background. I have 3 sisters whom are half-black, we share the same mother. To make a comment that I would the N-word and paint me as a racist, quote frankly is very rude. Just because you have different views on the subject, doesn't mean we have to resort to name calling and making judgments on each other. The comment to Merchant was a joke and he got that. Wasn't even directed at you.

[Wilshire]

Its difficult, when we have these conversations going on with people who have different degrees of familiarity.
Harmless jokes between two people is an outrageous insult to the person standing next to him.

FWIW, I did see MSJ/TM's exchange as joking. Unfortunately, in a place this public it's rarely ever that simple.

IRL we don't typically have this issue for various reasons, but I'd like to thank you guys to attempting to coexist here .

[solipsisticurge]

Sorry for butting in with my two cents here...

It's all too easy, especially when discussing politics, to rely on a pre-established narrative shorthand in dealing with other people doing their best to summarize complicated views in an imperfect medium. I'm guilty of this myself; MSJ, I had you pegged as a Trump supporter/Bush guy/hater of Obama/etc., largely because the views you've expressed in the thread we've argued in don't easily fit into my preexisting mental image of a Trump critic/Obama voter/liberal/whatever. Obviously, people are more complex than simple mental shortcuts can convey adequately, but it was all too easy on my end to fall into the trap of "vocal patriotism + support for the Iraq war = Republican = image already formed in my mind regardless of the situation's reality." Same on tleilaxu's end, I would assume.

As to his comments, they were quite obviously a caricature of Americans-as-viewed-by-Europeans to me; but I traffic highly in countercultural and anti-American sentiment, so my mind already possessed the cognitive detours necessary to see the statement as intended. America's liberal party is well to the right of most European nations' centrist platform, we're renowned for our cultural arrogance worldwide, we lead the world in obesity and overindulgence, we love our guns, and even as a die-hard patriot you have to admit we've had a bit of an issue with race and police brutality in our distant past recent past last Thursday right now. I doubt he intended any direct accusation of racism against you; but again, all too easy to fall into that mental shorthand, and assume the American making American statements is the strawman American fitting the negative stereotypes established, reinforced and exaggerated.

[Woden]

America's liberal party is well to the right of most European nations' centrist platform,

In Spain even the right party is making socialist politics and the tyranny of political correctness is overwhelming.
LOL.

[Madness]

Having not read the thread per time allowances/use, I can't comment on the original posts - which I probably read out of order in "most recent posts," regardless.

I imagine that we should all take care constructing our posts with, perhaps, more diligence (as I expect of Bakker readers at this point, really) when communicating with posters of varying histories on the forum - especially in threads which garner a certain intensity or ferocity.

[MSJ]

It's all too easy, especially when discussing politics, to rely on a pre-established narrative shorthand in dealing with other people doing their best to summarize complicated views in an imperfect medium. I'm guilty of this myself; MSJ, I had you pegged as a Trump supporter/Bush guy/hater of Obama/etc., largely because the views you've expressed in the thread we've argued in don't easily fit into my preexisting mental image of a Trump critic/Obama voter/liberal/whatever. Obviously, people are more complex than simple mental shortcuts can convey adequately, but it was all too easy on my end to fall into the trap of "vocal patriotism + support for the Iraq war = Republican = image already formed in my mind regardless of the situation's reality." Same on tleilaxu's end, I would assume.

You pegged me wrong. While I know that the Iraq war was undertaken in false pretense(maybe, it wouldn't have been hard for Sadaam to get the chemical weapons out before the inspectors came in, thats another thread though), once it was going to happen it was going to happen. So, I was glad Sadaam was getting what was coming to him at that point. And once we commit, then we need to commit to helping that nation rebuild.

Yea, the internet especially has created this "ground" where you are either left or right. And, when you say something that allies you with a side, your instantly pegged as that. In this case, I'm a gun-totting, racist from the backwoods of West Virginia. When in all reality, none of thats true. I don't own a gun, never have. I have a bi-racial family, I care for many friends that are LGBTQ+. But, I believe in the right to bear arms, just believe we need stricter regulations and don't get me started on these new open carry laws. Im straight down the middle man. I have views that lie on the left and the right. I will always respect the position of office as President of America (though, right now I don't think you can even call it that, more like a fucking clown show). On the internet, your either pegged as left or right, when in reality its much more complex than that. But, that's the nature of the internet. Where, unless I quote 45 articles and have 100% knowledge of whats on topic, you or I am not taken seriously. When, people can have views and those view be important to them without having a PhD in the subject. It allows no face to face communication where you can understand one better and not just paint a picture in your mind. But, here we are, and that's what you have to deal with.

[TaoHorror]

Ah, the witches, the bitches ... the witches are this story's most tedious feature ... everyone knows women are too stupid for spell casting ... how about you cast the clean the fucking kitchen spell, master that one and we'll talk, eh?

[Redeagl]

Ah, the witches, the bitches ... the witches are this story's most tedious feature ... everyone knows women are too stupid for spell casting ... how about you cast the clean the fucking kitchen spell, master that one and we'll talk, eh?

Sorry Tao, I don't mean any offence but I think Wilshire cautioned against comments like these even if it's just sarcasm.

[Redeagl]

Ah, the witches, the bitches ... the witches are this story's most tedious feature ... everyone knows women are too stupid for spell casting ... how about you cast the clean the fucking kitchen spell, master that one and we'll talk, eh?

Sorry Tao, I don't mean any offence but I think Wilshire cautioned against comments like these even if it's just sarcasm.

Did I just post this in the building better community thread?  Jokes on me. What was I on yesterday? Sorry Tao, I am an idiot.

[TaoHorror]

Ah, the witches, the bitches ... the witches are this story's most tedious feature ... everyone knows women are too stupid for spell casting ... how about you cast the clean the fucking kitchen spell, master that one and we'll talk, eh?

Sorry Tao, I don't mean any offence but I think Wilshire cautioned against comments like these even if it's just sarcasm.

Did I just post this in the building better community thread?  Jokes on me. What was I on yesterday? Sorry Tao, I am an idiot.

Naw, man, you're cool. I think this was what this thread was for - calling out provocateurs and disrespectful conversation. In retrospect, it was poor and unfunny. I was aiming it as a bit of humor on how "Bakker treats women" in his story, but came off lame. I'll retract it.

For the record, and I really really mean this, I care for and respect all of you. I suffer from mischief syndrome and sometimes can't help myself. The more inane my post, the more bored I am at the moment.

[MSJ]

Naw, man, you're cool. I think this was what this thread was for - calling out provocateurs and disrespectful conversation. In retrospect, it was poor and unfunny. I was aiming it as a bit of humor on how "Bakker treats women" in his story, but came off lame. I'll retract it.

For the record, and I really really mean this, I care for and respect all of you. I suffer from mischief syndrome and sometimes can't help myself. The more inane my post, the more bored I am at the moment

I have the same problem. I tend to be sarcastic and taking as a jerk. Hard to convey sarcasm on the Webs.