Moenghus is a lying liar who lies

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« Reply #45 on: April 26, 2013, 04:09:20 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Wow I actually didn't expect anyone to agree with me. To be honest I just threw in the whole "unite everyone to kill them" idea in there because I can't explain it to myself. Why would he want to unite everyone if his goal was to gave them all killed anyways? Not really sure, so it throws a wrench into my Moe theory, but I'm going to stick to it I think.

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« Reply #46 on: April 26, 2013, 04:09:33 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
I like hearing other interpretations even if I don't agree, makes me reconsider and rework my own conclusions. :)

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« Reply #47 on: April 26, 2013, 04:09:37 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Lol @ Wilshire. I completely agree with Curethan, the magic of forums is social. You all can think of things that I never could or can. I invite you to share that as expressively as you can.

I will just repost from the Cishaurim thread[/u], what I think is my main piece of evidence for Moenghus playing Kellhus in their conversation in TTT.

"I bear a message from your Father. He says, 'You walk the Shortest Path. Soon you will grasp the Thousandfold Thought.'" p.579, TWP

[This is Hifanat ab Tunukri of Moenghus' sect of Cishaurim - he also mentions this nugget: "We see you. All of us." ... "All of us who serve him - the Possessors of the Third Sight."]

"Sooner or later the caste-nobility had to move against you. Crisis was inevitable ... This," the eyeless face said, "was where the Probability Trance failed me..." p.338, TTT LE

[This if one of the few times that Moenghus "validates" what Kellhus describes as Moenghus' Journey. I think Moenghus is lying.]

"How," his father finally said, "could you know this?"
"Because I know why you were compelled to summon me."
Scrutiny. Calculation.
"So you have grasped it."
"Yes ... the Thousandfold Thought." p. 340, TTT LE

[This ends a chapter, a revelatory moment, and Moenghus, from Kellhus' perspective, acts surprised by what is not new knowledge.]

Moenghus lied to Kellhus in TTT and Kellhus seems deceived by this.

"His father, Kellhus realized, had finally grasped the principles of this encounter. Moenghus had assumed his son would be the one requiring instruction. He had not foreseen it as possible, let alone inevitable, that the Thousandfold Thought would outgrow the soul of its incubation - and discard it." p.374, TTT LE

Except it seems the Conditioned Ground was Moenghus' that day. In TWP, he explicitly lets his son know that he will grasp the Thousandfold Thought but then, in the conversation in TTT, he does not mention it until Kellhus does, even though he knows Kellhus has indeed grasped the Thought.

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« Reply #48 on: April 26, 2013, 04:10:04 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Perhaps a bit off topic:
Alright so this line of thinking probably stemmed form reading all the inverse fire posts. But where does TTT actually fit in here. Let me try to explain:
If TTT is supposed to be like Laplace's Demon, Hari Sheldon's Sheldon Plan, Leto's Golden Path (or the Wizard of Oz's yellow brick road), why does it seem that everyone who 'grasps' it seem to have a different conclusion, a different path to follow. Why does something so inevitable, so impossible to miss after following the probability trance long enough, seem to pull people different ways? And not just people, Dunyain (or part dunyain in some cases).

It seems (nearly) a theme that revaluations bind to cause in SE. The IF for the consult, Seswatha's heart for the Mandate, why not the TTT for the Dunyain? These things are all supposed to point to truth. While truth is rather subjective, and TTT is not as obviously violent of a revaluations as the others, why shouldn't it bind Moe, Kell, and anyone else who might have grasped it to similar ends.

The other, lets call them devices of truth, are implemented in different ways to be sure (magic and tekne), but they do something similar. Horrible atrocities are seen. Pain, suffering, death etc. Does TTT show a similar horrific picture? A burned world, the death of whole kingdoms and peoples, slavery, murder, etc. As well as with the other 'devices' there is also a way out. A way to save yourself, I mean the world.

I guess my question is what makes the truths wrought from TTT bind purpose to action, people to deeds, in so different a way than the the IF and the Heart.

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« Reply #49 on: April 26, 2013, 04:10:11 pm »
Quote from: Imparrhas
What reasons would Moe have to lie to Kel in this way? I see only two possibilities: he was still Dunyain, predicted that Kellhus would break and the whole thing is a gambit to have Kel think he is superseding Moe while he is actually still working to Moe's ends. If this is true then either Moe did not forsee the suprise stab and his gambit failed or the last twenty years have been Moe working through Kellhus.
The other possibility is that Moe was not Dunyain anymore, was working towards the same conception of the TTT as Kellhus but forsaw that the surest (or only) way to achieve it was if Kellhus believed Moe was still Dunyain, would work for Golgotterath and had to be killed. In this case the cave scene was also Moe's gambit but the intention was to transmit the TTT to Kellhus in the way that's most likely to have it succeed.

Of these possibilities I think the second part of the first one, where Kellhus has been unwittingly working to Moe's ends for the last two decades, is the least likely.

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« Reply #50 on: April 26, 2013, 04:10:17 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
I like the second one.  Your first one works if you use Nerdanel's GMCT belief that Moe was not in the cave with Kellhus, that he was speaking through his hologram projection ability like in TDTCB and that Kell stabbed a surrogate.  The key evidence for this is that Kell never sees Moe's face since Moe stays behind a waterfall the whole time.  The key counter evidence for this is that Cnaiur thinks it Moe, but he's a bit out of his head so the counter counter is that Moe had a body double that had similar physical attributes to better fool Kellhus (couldn't rely only on hiding one's face behind a sheet of water, Kell would note a  problem with scars, height build, complexion etc).  and for whatever reason kept up the illusion when talking to Cnaiur.

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« Reply #51 on: April 26, 2013, 04:10:24 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
He was not behind the waterfall the entire time and kell did get a few chances to look at his face. He leaned through the waterfall to press the rag into his eye sockets to show kell that they were empty, and that they bled. There is also the line when he comes through the falls completely which reads something like "son and father stood eye to socket" (it also says that Moe is naked except for a thin cloth around his junk). Certainly Kell could have figured out that this fella was or wasn't his father with him standing more or less naked several feet from his face, dim lighting or not.

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« Reply #52 on: April 26, 2013, 04:10:32 pm »
Quote from: Madness
They also stood in a completely lit room where Moenghus had kept the captured skin-spies.

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« Reply #53 on: April 26, 2013, 04:10:39 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Is it mentioned anywhere that the number of snakes had by a cish is some indication of how powerful they are, or rather how much water they can bare? Also, Kell says to Moe that the cish priests came to mistrust moe because he was so intelligent and shined so brightly in the third sight, but couldnt bare water as it was a metaphysic of emotion and not intellect. What does shining in the third sight indicate, and why would Kell assume this bit of information?

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« Reply #54 on: April 26, 2013, 04:10:46 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
As I recall, Moe 'shines in the third sight' because he 'reflects the proportions of the god'.  This is fairly ambiguous, but seems to have something to do with having emotional and spiritual balance. 

In my opinion this means, that because dunyain who live through the 'proper' Ishual-style whelming have control over their emotions, they are able to apply logical reasoning to determine their own fate.  Which also means they are in complete control of their own spiritual destiny (i.e. whether they are damned or not). 

Unfortunately for Moe, the way that dunyain control their emotions is by suppressing them with this rational control means that he lacks facility with the raw power of meaning that released emotion generates.  Think about the way that athletes hype themselves up - this is the kind of controled emotion that is required for bearing large amounts of water with the psukhe.  Just having a tantrum probably wouldn't cut it.  (Could be that this is why Kell thinks Moe will inevitably join the consult - he has probably damned himself by exploring many pervy different ways of trying to extend his emotional experience, somewhat analogous to Shae after looking at the IF perhaps.  Cuz I tend to think torturing skin spies is fine with E-God.)

By this line of reasoning there is no reason why Moe wouldn't be capable of extreme finesse with the power that he can harness - it's just the raw power available to him that is lacking.

eta. so no, I don't think that the number of snakes has any bearing on cishie power levels - remember Meppa only has 1 snake and he kicks major arse.

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« Reply #55 on: April 26, 2013, 04:10:52 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Good point about Meppa but I thought that all the high ranking cish that the scarlet spies fight all had like 5 snakes, I would be completely wrong thought.

Thanks for the insight into the third sight. By that definition, it seems once again to show the finite awareness of the gods, or in this case the god, imo. If he shines in the third sight it would seem that the god more or less shows him favor. Sure emotional balance and what-not, but to me it shows that certainly a 'god' would know who should be exhalted as one of their children (shining in the sight) and who should be bland as a pealed potato.

Also is it mentioned what Kell looks like in the third sight? A real same if not, because after this book there will probably be few chances to witness Kell in a pov of a cish. I'd imagine if Moe was holographic, then it would stand to reason that the the other dunyain would as well.

And if the dunyain can, what about other beings? Nonmen, consult, other sorcerers, or even the weapon races. If the sight can be fooled to show someone so at odds with the god its supposed to show favor for, what stops other emotionless, or extremely emotional, people/things from shining as well.

Can't say I've put much thoughts into how the third sight works myself, but if anyone has some answers it would certainly be interesting to ponder.

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« Reply #56 on: April 26, 2013, 04:10:59 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
eh I had a nice long post about my interpretations of the god, cishie powers and the third sight for you Wilshire, and then a computer crash ate it.  :(

Basicaly I think Moe had his snakes positioned around the grotto.

Kellhus, I am pretty sure, also shines, as does truth (make of that what you will) - the amount that one understands their emotions determines how well they can use the logos (i.e. rationality) to control the darkness that moves them (and others) but the depth with which they feel emotion is important to how much power they can channel... the power of the psuhke comes from within whereas the gnosis and anagosis hinge on the meanings invested by others.  A normal cish could better come to understand his emotions by experiencing them forcefully (for reference look at how intensely Kellhus feels his emotions (the legion within) during his whelming when he masters them) so it's confusing for the cishie elders that Moe has such finesse but very little power.

I imagine all dunyain shine in the third sight - and those that are ignorant of the logos and are almost completely moved by the darkness that comes before are all but invisible (why else would it take Moe to detect skinspies if cishies can see souls?)

I don't think it has anything to do with the god's favour - remember that Moe, Kellhus and fanimry al seem to agree that the god is unconcious.  Damnation etc seems to hinge on controling yourself despite the weight of the darkness pushing you to do certain things.  That is, doing stuff that your rational mind tells you is wrong. 
Kellhus can't really decide that Moe has the god's favour and two minutes later justify killing him because he is inevitably damned and will therefore join the consult, yeh?
At any rate, the uber-god doesn't really seem to do anything.
From what Mimara's POV intimates, understanding and forgiving yourself may be enough...

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« Reply #57 on: April 26, 2013, 04:11:06 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Well hungry computers aside that post seemed to do a nice job of answering everything I asked. Thanks.

Also it does seem likely that Moe had snakes positioned around. Even though they "are but pinpricks", enough pinpricks and you've got a nice clear view, though so many different perspectives would probably drive a non dunyain mad which could explain why no one else bothered with more than a few snakes.

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« Reply #58 on: April 26, 2013, 04:11:13 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: Wilshire
He was not behind the waterfall the entire time and kell did get a few chances to look at his face. He leaned through the waterfall to press the rag into his eye sockets to show kell that they were empty, and that they bled. There is also the line when he comes through the falls completely which reads something like "son and father stood eye to socket" (it also says that Moe is naked except for a thin cloth around his junk). Certainly Kell could have figured out that this fella was or wasn't his father with him standing more or less naked several feet from his face, dim lighting or not.
doh, looks like I need to do a reread.

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« Reply #59 on: April 26, 2013, 04:11:20 pm »
Quote from: Imparrhas
Quote from: Curethan
Damnation etc seems to hinge on controling yourself despite the weight of the darkness pushing you to do certain things.  That is, doing stuff that your rational mind tells you is wrong.
Are you saying that the Logos comes from the Darkness? I would expect that resisting the Darkness would be doing stuff that you feel is wrong.
 
Quote from: Curethan
From what Mimara's POV intimates, understanding and forgiving yourself may be enough...
Interesting. That would mean that people Damn themselves right? I also thought that lack of understanding and forgiveness Damns, but that this was how people Damn each other.