The Maithanet-Inrilatas Conversation

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« on: April 28, 2013, 01:04:01 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
I'm rather suprised this hasn't been brought up much. We don't get many conversations with Dunyain, so this should be important. I'm got several things I want to touch on but this WLW sub forum is rather empty so I might partition up my thought into different threads depending on how it goes.
Starts on page 258 and goes to about 265 (USA Hardcover). Its best to begin at the beginning though.



"Why would Father trust a whore over the pious Shriah of the Thousand Temples?"
"I know not"
"But you suspect."
"I fear my brother does not fully trust me."
"Because he knows, doesn't he? He knows the secret of our blood."

So this that last line gives me pause. What is the secret of their blood? Who's blood exactly are they talking about? Who is the secret from?

What secret:
Thats really the main question here. I don't believe the "secret" is explicitly stated...

Who is this secret kept form:
If just the regular humans, who gives a damn? They hide everything form them anyways and play with them like  marionettes, whats one more mark against many? Hardly worth mentioning something that insignificant. It must be more. Don't know what.

Who's blood:
Could be several things, or at least potentially. They are not directly related so there are several bloodlines to be explored. The obvious, and only certain tie, is Moenghus Sr. But the blood of big Moe is only 50% in Maithanet, and 25% in Inrilatas, to the best of our knowledge. What secrets could that diluted blood harbor over two generations with separate mothers? Kellhus, obviously, also has this blood, so this would be their secret isnt a very well kept one.
Is it referring to Dunyain blood in general? That too me doesn't really seem like something worth mentioning, unless it is in reference to the fact that Dunyain must control circumstance and are thus can always be trusted to revolt.
What about the mothers blood? Though assuredly Esmi was not Maithanet's mother, though I guess it may be possible it was Esmi's mother.... maybe. Very thin line there. Mostly crackpot there.
If not the mother, then how about the mixing of Dunyain and World Born blood? Perhaps it always causes the kind of interplay we see so extremely with Kelmomas, though to a lesser/greater extent depending on how much of which half you got. This could be an interesting answer, as then it means that basically all the half-dunyain are somehow crazy, but some like Maithanet can control/hide/balance their "true" nature with a more tempered, more calculating, more reasonable mind.

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« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2013, 01:04:09 pm »
Quote from: Triskele
I'll have more to say later, but I just wanted to say that of the many highlights from WLW which I loved overall, this is near the top.

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« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2013, 01:04:17 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Yeah this was a pretty powerful section. We shall hopefully enjoy a long conversation. I've many more things to bring about.
This is like christmas come early :)

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« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2013, 01:04:24 pm »
Quote from: Madness
This is also one of my favorites. As you said, Wilshire, Dunyain conversation is pretty sparse. Inrilatas and that episode reminded me so much of Neuropath. Awesome. I too will have more organized thoughts later... work calls again too soon.

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« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2013, 01:04:32 pm »
Quote from: Triskele
So here's an idea that lockesnow threw out in another thread.

Inralatus asks Maithanet how many kids Moenghus had.  He gives the slightest hesitation and tells him that he had six or so, and that they were drowned at the first sign of peculiarities.

Why the pause?  Are we as readers supposed to read anything into the pause?  Does the pause suggest that we should question anything in Maithanet's answer?  Was the drowning not always literal?  Was one of them not drowned in water but in Water?

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« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2013, 01:04:39 pm »
Quote from: Duskweaver
I assumed Maithanet's frequent pauses were the moments when he accessed the Probability Trance, which would imply they were the moments when he recieved fresh, unexpected information that he regarded as relevant enough to recalculate his long-term plans.

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« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2013, 01:04:45 pm »
Quote from: Madness
+1 for communicative quality, Duskweaver.

Oh, Wilshire... we will go deeper. Other questions will emerge from the depths ;).

"'And have the circumstances arrived?'

'No.'

Laughter. "Oh, but Uncle Holy, they have arrived - most certainly'" (WLW, p406)

The first instance of Inrilatas corroborating circumstances for the reader. I really feel like Inrilatas plays his hand with humour - especially as he realizes throughout the conversation that he has the ability to play Maithanet so easily. He is an agent of chaos - maybe even holy, unconstrained, based on the other conversation he has with Kelmomas.

Inrilatas asks Maithanet Esmenet's question. Even if it's not entirely clear to the reader at this point, Inrilatas knows Kelmomas plays Maithanet and Esmenet against each other, apparently at the whim of a Dunyanic child. And Inrilatas knows here, that Maithanet doesn't know.

Then Inrilatas moves onto the noted conversation about Moenghus the Elder's other children (which lockesnow has provided us with wicked speculation concerning drowning referring to Fanim ritual. The point Inrilatas seems to come to is that all the half-Dunyain seem to question Kellhus' choices.

"'You think that Mother has comprised Father.'

Another fraction of hesitation. Maithanet's gaze drifted in and out of focus.

Inrilatas seized the opportunity. 'You think Mother has blunted Father's pursuit of the Shortest Path time and again, that he walks in arcs to appease her heart, when he should cleave to the ruthless lines of the Thousandfold Thought.'

...

'Who has told you these things?' His uncle demanded.

Inrilatas ignored the distraction. 'You think Father risks the very world for his Empress's sake - for the absurdity of love!'

'Was it her? Did she tell you about the Thousandfold Thought?' (p408)

The question of the Thousandfold Thought arises... It seems again that this provides evidence towards the Thousandfold Thought being the culmination of the Probability Trance, the unfolding of unimaginable circumstance. The Thousandfold Thought seems an artifact, something all Dunyain would realize given enough time and enough knowledge of the fundamental variables of reality.

Inrilatas seems to have devised it in his cell... and he seems to have seen further than Maithanet.

They move on in conversation - with some interesting perspective by Kelmomas on how he desperately wants Maithanet's training, which Kellhus won't provide Kelmomas, making Father useless (p409).

"'Strange, isn't it, Uncle? The way we Dunyain, for all our gifts, can never speak?'

'We are speaking now.'

Inrilatas laughed at this, lowered his beard-hazed cheek to his knees once again. 'But how can that be when we mean nothing of what we say?' (p409)

Inrilatas is simply playing for time and acknowledges, apparently over Maithanet's head, that he is means nothing of what he says... Using Truth to deceive another Dunyain :shock: ?

And then the finale, the theme of the excerpt in a big way - Kelmomas' manipulations are revealed...

'Mother?' His older brother exclaimed. 'You think Mother arranged this?'

...

'Kelmomas?' Maithanet asked, not with the incredulity appropriate to a human, but in the featureless voice belonging to the Dunyain" (p411).

And finally, Inrilatas turns Maithanet's Dunyain scrutiny from himself to his little brother, the only plan which might have worked on Maithanet... and ultimately, didn't...

Whether or not Inrilatas choose such a fate, to die by his Uncle hand to further his brother's mad agenda, or he saw another future for himself, Kelmomas' own goals are furthered... however, from this point on, Maithanet realizes the absurd dimensions of circumstance, which have evolved unbeknownst to him, and can work under the guise of more objective knowledge.

Just some freestyles.

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« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2013, 01:04:53 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
World born crossed with Dunyain will always be a contaminated experiment. In some ways worse than starting over again from the very begining.

On his pause, it depends. Our own pauses are rather like accesses to probabilities, when faced with uncomfortable things and left wanting for a responce. Maithanet's database like scan of probabilities may be tinged with actual feelings about his siblings murders. Or even just how close he was to being killed. If half Dunyain question, it may be tinged with questioning his own father.

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« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2013, 01:05:00 pm »
Quote from: Triskele
I was re-reading a bit.

It's great when Inralatus "sees" the second voice in little Kel's head.  I so want to know what's up w/ the other voice.  Sammi?  Ajokli?  Simple craziness?  Other?

I do realize that's in the preceding section before Maithanet arrives, but it's just more cool Inralatus stuff.

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« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2013, 01:05:07 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
Sticking with my current fascination for an Ajokli/Kellhus alliance....

Why trust the fate of the empire to a whore?
Because she is bound to Gierra, and thus reachable by Ajokli? or something to do with Anagke?
Kellhus says something to Esme about why he must use her (instead of Maitha) in his plans for the empire whilst he goes of with the ordeal, I think it relates strongly to her humanity and connection with the gods.  Maitha is the obvious target for Yatwers' coallition (as head of the 1000 temples and a fellow dunyain).

Interesting that Inrau-junior's one personal desire is to kill for murder's sake (Ajokli again).

I think Kellhus really left the empire in Ajokli's hands.
e.t.a. perhaps the empire is a sacrifice to Ajokli for other services...?

One other aside, about the dunyain blood.  Ishual is built over ancient non-man mansion (the 1000, 1000 halls).  Perhaps the dunyain were searching for it (in TDTCB prologue) as a source of quirri to use in their eugenics programme.  I.e. the halls are a necropolis and the dunyain superhuman powers are not just the result of 2000 years of selective breeding but also genetic drug therapy.

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« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2013, 01:05:14 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Haha damnit Madness get out of my head

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« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2013, 01:05:21 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Lol... I definitely agree that the conversation with Inrilatas and Kelmomas, where Kelmomas leaves his brother the tool to free himself, as well as, the conversation where Esmenet dons an Ainoni Mask to confront Maithanet are important to the themes emerging in our discussion.

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« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2013, 01:05:29 pm »
Quote from: Fëanor
Great passage.
And what about Maithanet's mother?
Who was she?
Why Maitha's bones are so Dunyain iron against Inrilatas's human ones?
Simply dominant/recesive genes, that turned out that way by chance? (or maybe not by chance, being that one of Moe's selective methods when drowning pups)
Or is she (Maithanet's mother) something more?

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« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2013, 01:05:41 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
This is why I wanted to make a couple of threads, big posts scare people off and some questions get ignored. Ah well I'll do my best
Quote from: Triskeles
So here's an idea that lockesnow threw out in another thread.

Inralatus asks Maithanet how many kids Moenghus had. He gives the slightest hesitation and tells him that he had six or so, and that they were drowned at the first sign of peculiarities.

Why the pause? Are we as readers supposed to read anything into the pause? Does the pause suggest that we should question anything in Maithanet's answer? Was the drowning not always literal? Was one of them not drowned in water but in Water?

I always interpreted the pause as him dipping into the probability trance. Probably him trying to see what would happen based on different responses

Quote from: Fëanor
Great passage.
And what about Maithanet's mother?
Who was she?
Why Maitha's bones are so Dunyain iron against Inrilatas's human ones?
Simply dominant/recesive genes, that turned out that way by chance? (or maybe not by chance, being that one of Moe's selective methods when drowning pups)
Or is she (Maithanet's mother) something more?
Maybe she was selected for her physical strength, opposed to Esmi's mental. That would also help explain why Inrilatas so dominated this confrontation until it came to blows. Why Inrilatas could see further into TTT, even from his cage.

On kids:
This was something of a curiosity. Reading carefully (or with bias i guess) it can be seen that much more is going on than what was actually said. What was said and what was read :P

"How many children did grandfather sire?"
"Six," ...
"Were any of them like me?"
A fraction of a heartbeat.
"I have no way of knowing. He drowned them at the first sign of peculiarities."
"And you were the only one that expressed ... balance?"
"I was the only one."


At first glance, not much here. Six kids, drowned all of them cuz they where crazy. Right? Wrong! (mostly crackpot):
The six children of Moenghus. First son was Kellhus which I think most people over looked, and another was Maithanet. That leaves us with 4. I think the remaining children that he "sired" are the 4 that lived. The ones that remained un-drowned.
Look: "where any of them like me?" ... "He drowned them at the first sign of peculiarities."
If Maithanet and the other 4 never expressed signs of peculiarities, then they wouldn't have been drowned. The statement remains truth. Daddy Moe did drown all the crazies. But are those considered true sons? Or just something ... other ... something not quite human. Something not to be counted as among your tribe. A scylivendi woman who gives birth to a white child has not born a true son. Not a true kinsmen. Just something other to be discarded. So the 6 children of Moenghus are the those that remain alive.

Ah, but you say, the last two lines disprove this. He was the only one that expressed balance.
Nay I tell you. Look closer!
"And you were the only one that expressed ... balance?"
"I was the only one."
First of all, balance is not what condemned the children, it was peculiarities. Balance has been substituted here, and this may have allowed Maithanet to lie with truth. None of the remaining children where peculiar, thus left alive, but maybe none of them were balanced. Maybe they excelled in certain fields more than others. A schoolman is not balanced in the ways of combat. The sons or daughters of Moenghus may have been specialized in certain fields, while Maitha could see sorcery, could wield a sword, could speak with a silver tongue. Maybe the most balanced, but not the only one that lived.
The remaining 5 sons of Moenghus walk.

Regarding The Thousandfold Thought (TTT):
I actually think it is possible that his section disproves some of our theories about TTT. I've said for quite some time that the TTT is the inevitable culmination of events when a Dunyain follows the probability trance for long enough, with all variables.
Maybe the only variables needed are sorcery and the Inchoroi. Think of all the knowledge within Ishual. All of that time and solitude, and none of them have seen TTT? How is that possible? Not because they dont have all the variables, but because they are missing the important ones. This is why the original Dunyain blotted magic and Inchoroi from their history.
These thoughts stem from Inrilatas and Kelmomas. I'll start with Inrilatas.
How much time did Father spend with him? He taught him how to use his gifts, or at least how to better control them. But did Kellhus teach him about War? Doubtful. Would have been a waste of time.
Did he teach him about the Inchoroi? He taught all his children what needed to be known in order to survive. They all knew about skin-spys. Even of Kellhus did not teach him more than that, it would have been enough for the boy to see into the Darkness. A light through which to explore the dark caves of time. He could uncover much simply because he knew what he was looking for.
Sorcery? Probably not, but that doesn't matter. All Inrilatas needed was to know of the existence of magic to be able to count it among the variables of TTT.
Though by that same logic that means that his knowledge about war would have been plenty for his musings. But thats find, I guess that just means war isnt one of the key important factors, considering the Ishual Dunyain certainly know of war and none of them are running around gouging out their eyes and leading armies through the north. (not that we know :P).

For Kelmomas, I won't say much since its mostly speculation. But suffice it to say that I think he has some kind of twisted version of TTT, something pretty close to the truth but slightly bent from inexperience.

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« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2013, 01:05:49 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
Try and imagine this conversation from Kellhus' perspective.

If it were Kellhus in the Maithanet role interviewing Inrilatus, how would Kellhus' internal narrative describe it?

Quote
'Who has told you these things?' His uncle demanded.
If Kellhus were to 'snap' at Inrilatis as Maithanet does here, it would be calculated--note that Maitha drops the farce the only point he is genuinely surprised, at Kelmomas, the text even alerts us to the fact that his voice is flat when he's not manipulating.  That means that the "demanded" in the above quote is a signal of manipulation, Maithanet is using the strategy that Kellhus also used--successfully--on an insane person who knows all the dunyain strategies.  This interview should strongly recall the dialogues between Kellhus and Cnaiur.  If we take that as our basis, the calculation behind asking the question, "Who has told you these things?" would be to try and sow doubt in Inrilatus' mind, Kellhus would provide a question in an attempt to make him question what he knows. 

Now turn around the conversation a second time.  This time imagine it is Kellhus in the role of Inrilatis, imprisoned, much like Kellhus was imprisoned by the Scylvendi when he was first captured), narrate the conversation through Inrilatis' thoughts and uncover how a Dunyain might be jousting through this engagement.

Kelmomas perceives the whole thing chaotically, but there is no reason the reader must, however we default to favor the biases of Kelmomas' perceptions specifically because we've been denied the perspectives of Maithanet and Inrilatus.  A simple substitution exercise could help readers overcome these author intended biases.  It's amazing, but the author is hiding much in plain sight by relying on knowledge of how the reader will behave.