Storks, Faith, & Holy Animals

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« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2013, 01:01:22 am »
Quote from: Callan S.
Don't understand the counter argument, if there is one?

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« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2013, 01:01:27 am »
Quote from: Curethan
No, not as I understand it.
The Kuniuri were the nation of the Norisai (just one of the five tribes) and were strongly influenced by the nonman tutelage.
Which caused a strong kind of cultural influence, to my mind.

All the way back to the Umeric empire the early nations of the north are refered to as being peopled by the Norisai.  I think its safe to assume that the other tribes (Satyothi, Scylvendi, Ketyai) kept on moving.  (Not the Xiuhianni, they stayed behind). 
... Speaking of the original tribes, I'm not sure which the Kian derive from.

Seems like the Ketyai took the Tusk with them (or did it come south with Kinniuri refugees - I don't recall) and it clearly has influenced their culture as a prime religious artifact. 
The Chronicle of the Tusk was written in Thoti-Eannorian - clearly it was important to all five tribes at one point in the past but how much so since ancient times, outside of the three seas?

Don't forget, the Tusk probably came from the Inchies.  It's prominence in the three seas and (less so) in the ancient north doesn't necasarily make it the basis of all Eannan beliefs any more than the bible you find in hotels explains the common traditions of christianity (probably less so).  It just incorporates many of them.

also, the God was present (albiet as some kind of placeholder - according to the glossary) in the Kunuirat tradition.

If Yatwer's claim to be the oldest of the hundred is to be believed, it seems reasonable to assume that others are newer and perhaps some even much more recent additions.  How is a god born, after all?
Are the cults universally represented in all human cultures?  Certainly not in old Kian or amongst the Scylvendi, but I don't recall Malowebi or Zsoronga paying them much heed either.  (Please correct me on that if I'm wrong).

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« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2013, 01:01:34 am »
Quote from: lockesnow
we're assuming the only origin story we have, the 'breaking of the gates' and mass migration into Earwa by humans was authentic and not manufactured. 

What I'm saying, to mix a metaphor, is perhaps the Zeumi were never at Babel to begin with.

And all this is still based on the straightforward reading of 'the breaking of the gates' in which the phrase has no meaning other than migration.  And yet perhaps the single most significant on screen metaphysical moment of the Aspect Emperor is related to metaphysical gates and their importance.

Perhaps mankind are just demons riding upjumped apes and consciousness is an ape illusion that is only manifested for the human for the convenience of the demon, who views 'life' as nothing more than a welcome respite from the fires of damnation?

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« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2013, 01:01:39 am »
Quote from: Duskweaver
Quote from: Curethan
Speaking of the original tribes, I'm not sure which the Kian derive from.
Ketyai.

Quote
Seems like the Ketyai took the Tusk with them (or did it come south with Kinniuri refugees - I don't recall) and it clearly has influenced their culture as a prime religious artifact.
Throughout recorded history, it's always been in Sumna, in the care of the Ketyai, except for a short period during the First Apocalypse when it was taken to Invishi.
 
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It's prominence in the three seas and (less so) in the ancient north doesn't necasarily make it the basis of all Eannan beliefs any more than the bible you find in hotels explains the common traditions of christianity (probably less so).  It just incorporates many of them.
It was the Tusk that united the Four Tribes of Men that entered Earwa, though. Those who didn't agree with the Tusk's (i.e. the Inchoroi's) particular retelling of their oral history and beliefs would have had no reason to follow its instruction to invade Earwa and attack the Nonmen. So it seems quite reasonable to assume that the Chronicle of the Tusk does indeed accurately reflect the beliefs of the Tribes who did actually follow it.

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If Yatwer's claim to be the oldest of the hundred is to be believed, it seems reasonable to assume that others are newer and perhaps some even much more recent additions.
All of the Hundred are listed in the Book of Gods in the Chronicle of the Tusk - i.e. they all predate the Tusk itself. Ajokli is implied to be one of the most powerful/important (much more so than in the 'modern-day' Three Seas), while Yatwer and her followers seem to have been viewed with contempt.

Quote
Are the cults universally represented in all human cultures?  Certainly not in old Kian or amongst the Scylvendi, but I don't recall Malowebi or Zsoronga paying them much heed either.  (Please correct me on that if I'm wrong).
Zsoronga tells Sorweel that Yatwer is "the slave Goddess ... beneath our petitioni[ng] ... but not beneath our respect ... among the eldest ... the most powerful".

He also says that "honouring ancestors is far older than the Thousand Temples" and is apparently offended at the suggestion that it has anything to do with "Inrithi nonsense".

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« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2013, 01:01:46 am »
Quote from: Curethan
Good stuff Dusky, thanks for the extra info.

Quote from: Duskweaver
It was the Tusk that united the Four Tribes of Men that entered Earwa, though. Those who didn't agree with the Tusk's (i.e. the Inchoroi's) particular retelling of their oral history and beliefs would have had no reason to follow its instruction to invade Earwa and attack the Nonmen. So it seems quite reasonable to assume that the Chronicle of the Tusk does indeed accurately reflect the beliefs of the Tribes who did actually follow it.

Except we know that the Inchies added stuff (specificly the condemnation of Cunoroi), so why should the rest be accurate.  Its content is open to interpretation and thus manipulation, depending on the theological powers of the time.

The four tribes followed the Prophet Angeshrael into Earwa, and it was also he that incited the war of extermination against the nonmen.

Its not too much of a stretch to infer that the chronicle of the Tusk is anying but a collection of advantageous beliefs re-interpreted and tied together to serve the purposes of Angeshrael (and his manipulators), much like Kellhus' New Empire neh?

Then we have the fact that the Xuihuanni rejected the invasion initially and the Scylvendi and the Kian (and possibly the Satyothi) later rejected the Tusk and/or its theological apparutus, which casts further doubt over whether it reflected the original belief systems or merely tried to incorporate and supplant them (like the Roman tradition).

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« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2013, 01:01:53 am »
Quote from: Madness
I have no disagreements with the Inchoroi wholesale manufacturing the Tusk. We know they inscribed it and, at least, added the Nonmen as false.

Curethan and Duskweaver still suggest to me that Zeum and Sakarpus should both reflect Kiunnat beliefs and, of course, that ancestor belief is as old as it is here.

So back to my original question: is there enough evidence to consider Storks as Holy under Kiunnat beliefs?

Another thought... Why don't the beliefs of Zeum and Sakarpus belief reflect more similarities? Why is Zsoronga telling Sorweel anything about Kiunnat beliefs?

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« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2013, 01:01:59 am »
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: Madness

Another thought... Why don't the beliefs of Zeum and Sakarpus belief reflect more similarities? Why is Zsoronga telling Sorweel anything about Kiunnat beliefs?

Christianity, Islam, Judaism.  All from the same tree, all with many similarities, more similar than different, yet the slight differences are the basis for bloody war.

there are people of the islamic faith who could easily school Christians on Christianity. 

Nonmen would be a more disconnected belief set--that still has ontological similarities--like Buddism.

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« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2013, 01:02:04 am »
Quote from: Madness
Sakarpus has experienced almost nothing in the way of cultural pressures from Inrithism. If a drift happened between Zeumi and Sakarpi Kiunnat practice or principle, it would either have to reflect Zeum's interaction with the Three Seas or Sakarpus' with the Ancient North...?

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« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2013, 01:02:10 am »
Quote from: Curethan
Auvangeshai is the gateway to Zeum, certainly not Sakarpus.  They'd be influenced by the Norasai moreso than Zeum.
As noted above, the Norasai certainly diverged from the old ways during the Tutelage.
The storks/holy animals do seem to be related to ancient cultic practices.

Ah, here we are. 
From WLW - Malowembi on the Unaras Spur.
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For whatever reason, the Three Seas seemed particularly prone to prophets and their tricks.  Where Zeum had remained faithful to the old Kiunnat ways, albiet in their own eliptical fashion, the Ketyai - the Tribe entrusted with the Holy Tusk, no less! - seemed bent on tearing down their ancient truths and replacing them with abstract fancy.


While I'm off-topic, interesting find- this is also the passage is where Malowebi uses the Iswazi Cant (using the fetishes).
He's using the Cant to communicate directly with the Satakhan (whilst awake). 
The implication is either that the Mbimayu can communicate directly with non-sorcerers (and that the Satakhan allows this - despite the pollution of sorcery!) or that the Satakhan is a sorcerer himself...

Back on topic, I would speculate that the 'holy' creatures seem to be those that watch.  Snakes, storks, spiders...
Perhaps this is significant, the only creature (afaik) to intrude on WLW's perspective;
Quote
He saw a spider skitter across the floorboards, knew that the world was its web.  He almost stepped upon it ten thousand times.  Almost, again and again...
Ajokli or Anagke interfering?  Proof of the WLW's fallability?

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« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2013, 01:02:17 am »
Quote from: Madness
Quote
The storks/holy animals do seem to be related to ancient cultic practices.

+1? Duskweaver had some great ammo in another thread:

Quote from: Duskweaver
The old European 'storks delivering babies' myth perhaps comes originally from the Egyptians, for whom the stork represented the human soul (more correctly, the Ba, that part of the many-aspected Egyptian soul that represented 'personality' or the uniqueness of the individual) as it entered or left the body.

There's another variation (in Eastern Europe IIRC) where storks don't bring souls to the newborn, but rather steal them, resulting in the child being stillborn.

Meh, we're well off topic, Curethan. I may make another thread, at some point. But for now...

Quote from: Curethan
Quote
For whatever reason, the Three Seas seemed particularly prone to prophets and their tricks. Where Zeum had remained faithful to the old Kiunnat ways, albiet in their own eliptical fashion, the Ketyai - the Tribe entrusted with the Holy Tusk, no less! - seemed bent on tearing down their ancient truths and replacing them with abstract fancy.

While I'm off-topic, interesting find- this is also the passage is where Malowebi uses the Iswazi Cant (using the fetishes).
He's using the Cant to communicate directly with the Satakhan (whilst awake).
The implication is either that the Mbimayu can communicate directly with non-sorcerers (and that the Satakhan allows this - despite the pollution of sorcery!) or that the Satakhan is a sorcerer himself...

I wonder if perhaps this is our first witness of Shamanism?! Sorcery inseparable from Faith?

I'm not sure that second quote is proof of fallibility, or even why that would be, but if that spider is an agent, my guess is Anagke, based on the "world was its web."

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« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2013, 01:02:23 am »
Quote from: lockesnow
Did Moenghus use a similar method to communicate to the Dunyain?  He may/could have had contact with the Zeum...

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« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2013, 01:02:29 am »
Quote from: Curethan
Moenghus was sending dreams.  Implication was that it was a one way method. 
On the other hand he formed a conduit for the Padirajah(?) to talk directly to Xerius at the start of TDTCB.
But then, that's Moenghus and the Psukhe - not a good indication of what should be possible with the standard Anagosis.
Malowebi's reaction to Meppa doesn't indicate the Zeum have much sympathy with the Cish.

@ Madness;
Maybe not proof, merely the suggestion.  Everthing else the WLW does is marked by providence.  He does not fail.  Even the notch in his sword is there for a reason.

I thought the more important speculation was holy creatures being those that watch.  If the Cish can see through the eyes of snakes, why not the gods?

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« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2013, 01:02:35 am »
Quote from: lockesnow
ah that's exactly the point.  On screen, Moenghus has demonstrated the use of magic exactly twice.  Both times he used communication magic.  Two different species of communication magic.  One kind is similar to the dreams only communication of the Mandate, the other kind is similar to the wide-awake communication of the zeumi magic. This is the only kind of magic we've seen him use.  And yet slap a label of Cishaurim on him and we think we've got it all figured out, cause the label did all the work for us--when in actuality, the label probably was the lever used to deceive us. ;););)

From the evidence we have we could assume two possibilities from this:

In his thirty years, Moenghus has mastered both the Zeumi and the Mandati forms of magic and has used iterations of both as needed for communication magics.

or

The Cishaurim, still wrapped in mystery, have communication magics that Moenghus was able to harness to outperform the communication magics of both the Mandati and the Zeumi.

It seems we've always defaulted to the latter assumption because Moenghus has the label of Cishaurim, but there is nothing to disprove the former, the label Cishaurim just makes us think we don't have to consider the former.

And other then the very beginnings of a spell I don't think we have any onscreen use of Cishaurim magic by moengus. so the former has a stronger case of evidence than the latter.
 
Quote
He almost stepped upon it ten thousand times. Almost, again and again...
perhaps what the spider indicates is that the white luck providence pattern fitting can be interrupted, and that in the interruption you have a chance of forestalling him.  Almost like someone caught in a loop, constantly falling.

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« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2013, 01:02:42 am »
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: Curethan
On the other hand he formed a conduit for the Padirajah(?) to talk directly to Xerius at the start of TDTCB.

...

Maybe not proof, merely the suggestion. Everthing else the WLW does is marked by providence. He does not fail. Even the notch in his sword is there for a reason.

I really wish we'd had Skauras experience. Is there another Cishaurim in Shigek with Xerius' face on him?

+1 on suggestions. Why would he almost step? Was there a hesitancy, as you highlight? What interferes with the White-Luck?

Quote from: lockesnow
And yet slap a label of Cishaurim on him and we think we've got it all figured out, cause the label did all the work for us--when in actuality, the label probably was the lever used to deceive us. ;););)

Lol +3. Course.

Quote from: lockesnow
The Cishaurim, still wrapped in mystery, have communication magics that Moenghus was able to harness to outperform the communication magics of both the Mandati and the Zeumi.

+1. Mystery :D!

EDIT: And it makes great sense that if the Cishaurim reflect the agency or the perspective of a God, that looking through the world is how the Gods sense... I think there's been some consensus that we think Gods perceive and express through all parts of the world, human & otherwise, neh?

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« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2013, 01:02:49 am »
Quote from: Callan S.
Wasn't Fane an Inrithi priest originally, who they exiled into the Carthay/desert? He went blind, then ran into the Kiane and taught them about the religion he figured out?

At the very least, he went blind and got some cish powers from it (cish - the environmentally friendly magic!) - he seems pretty cool!