Proyas: the next Shriah

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« on: May 28, 2013, 03:38:54 pm »
Quote from: WillemB
Think about it.  Proyas = the biblical Peter, the first pope.  "On this rock I will build my church."

EDIT TO ADD:  Peter in latin is Petrus.  Petrus = Proyas.  It explains the chats in the umbilicus.

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« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2013, 03:39:12 pm »
Quote from: coobek
Good idea.

He just needs to survive.

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« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2013, 03:39:32 pm »
Quote from: Madness
It seems from Maithanet at the end of WLW that Kellhus actually no longer communicates with the New Empire. Yet Kellhus tells Proyas that he has connections in Momemn.

I don't think the Ordeal cares about the Shriah. They follow a living God, so they think - though Happy Ent is right... Kellhus is the most able tool, if the Divine sought to work its will. But ultimately, the benefit, the social dividends, of declaring a new Shriah are in Momemn and the New Empire.

Kellhus going south?

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« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2013, 03:39:54 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: coobek
Good idea.

He just needs to survive.

 :)
Quote from: Madness

Kellhus going south?

Just a hop, skip, and a jump away.

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« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2013, 03:40:04 pm »
Quote from: WillemB
I am making one assumption here, and that is that Kellhus doesn't plan on returning.

Quote from: coobek wrote:
Good idea.

He just needs to survive.

I think the conversation in the umbilicus isn't about him surviving, it's about him dying.  Otherwise, why hint at his mortality, and show him speaking to his true nature?

After that (and who knows, maybe the circumfix prefigures what we'll see in TUC) it'll be up to Proyas and the rest of the gang to promote his ascension to godhood through their worship of his ultimate sacrifice.

Quote from: Madness wrote:
But ultimately, the benefit, the social dividends, of declaring a new Shriah are in Momemn and the New Empire.

I'm not sure there will be a New Empire without the return of at least a fragment of the Ordeal.  Those that survive the confrontation with the Consult will take home a power structure, through Proyas' Shrial authority, that connects them directly to their martyred emperor.  If his whole bureaucratic/religious mechanism ends with him at the gates of Dagliash or Golgotterath (again, assuming that dying is part of the plan) then no one will survive to continue his worship in the Three Seas proper.  I don't think that's in Kellhus' playbook.

I'll echo speculation I've seen elsewhere on the forum: could he be the voice in Kelmomas' head?  Could he have orchestrated the attack on the Shriah by Inrilatas by manipulating Kel?  Then that failing, used Kel to goad Esmenet into her attack?  Looking back at WLW, there were a lot of forces directed against Maithanet.  Who better than Kellhus, the ultimate puppet-master?  Perhaps he was clearing the station of Shriah to make way for a replacement with suitable credibility among the nobles.  Proyas.

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« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2013, 03:40:20 pm »
Quote from: Madness
I think Maithanet was already the perfect Shriah and I doubt Kellhus would have wanted to replace him with Proyas.

Honestly, sans Kellhus, I don't actually know what holds the Ordeal together. I think humankind would devolve into their former conceptual paradigms. And I think the conversations in the Umbilicus are undeniably about reuniting with Achamian, as well.

The Ordeal itself returning South by the end of TUC is unlikely. Unless they get they're asses beat at Dagliash... But coming right back across the Plains?

I do agree that Kellhus is going to die and/or fake his own death though. +1 on that.

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« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2013, 03:40:38 pm »
Quote from: WillemB
Dunno.  Maybe Kellhus was worried about Maithanet's affiliation with Moenghus? 

What are your thoughts on why Kellhus would want to fake his own death?  I haven't seen this explored in great detail.

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« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2013, 03:41:01 pm »
Quote from: Camlost
Not sure if this has come up yet, the series is called The Second Apocalypse. So far they haven't exactly been faced with the real crisis of apocalypse. I'm kind of counting on the Ordeal failing, I feel that's part of the reason we can't know the name of the following duology/trilogy

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« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2013, 03:41:13 pm »
Quote from: Madness
+1 Camlost. I figure that's starting to seem more and more likely as I consider the title and Willem's suggestion. It would parallel the defeat of the Investiture by the first Ordeal - as Kellhus' is the second by historical measure.

I honestly had wilder imaginations once that the last series would be called The First Apocalypse.

Willem, my thoughts are the conversation with Proyas as you suggested - they seem to highlight that Proyas is going to have to do without Kellhus and reunite with Achamian. Also, it would make sense why the Ordeal would need the Nonmen, if Kellhus is going to ditch them.

I also figure that the visions of the White-Luck will come to pass. I think that Kellhus is going to dominate circumstance - that what looks like his death is either part of an ascension play or faking it to defect to the Consult in secret? Or he expects the Consult to resurrect him in order to understand the Dunyain?

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« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2013, 03:41:21 pm »
Quote from: Triskele
Camlosts' point may well be correct.  But I feel like Kellhus can't fail.  If I reconcile those two things it leads to Kellhus fucking over the Ordeal somehow.

All of that said, one of the many things I love about this series is how nothing will surprise me.  Kellhus could ascend to Godhood or be simply slain by the WLW or anything in between.  Moe Sr. could be running the entire show form inside the Solitary God's brain or he could be completely gone.  Meppa could be Fane reincarnate and proof that The God has been awoken or he could just be some guy w/ more Water than he can handle. 

The Captain could be some fanatic or he could have returned from Hell itself with his soul forged anew. 

Seswatha could be the savior or he could have been jerking us all around all along. 

Other planets and grounds may matter or they may not. 

I could go on and on and on, but all of this stuff seems to matter.

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« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2013, 03:41:30 pm »
Quote from: coobek
Quote from: Triskele
Camlosts' point may well be correct.  But I feel like Kellhus can't fail.  If I reconcile those two things it leads to Kellhus fucking over the Ordeal somehow.

All of that said, one of the many things I love about this series is how nothing will surprise me.  Kellhus could ascend to Godhood or be simply slain by the WLW or anything in between.  Moe Sr. could be running the entire show form inside the Solitary God's brain or he could be completely gone.  Meppa could be Fane reincarnate and proof that The God has been awoken or he could just be some guy w/ more Water than he can handle. 

The Captain could be some fanatic or he could have returned from Hell itself with his soul forged anew. 

Seswatha could be the savior or he could have been jerking us all around all along. 

Other planets and grounds may matter or they may not. 

I could go on and on and on, but all of this stuff seems to matter.

Good one.

Secrest and non-linear predictability. Open Steppe. Many count it as the major strenght of the series.

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« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2013, 03:41:38 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Oh... I fully expect that Bakker will surprise us :twisted: .

May my mind crack on the shores of the incomprehensible.

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« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2013, 03:42:02 pm »
Quote from: Camlost
I think Kellhus is likely to die, but he will seize the moment and make of it a foundation for the Ordeal to continue on. I can also imagine a poetic moment where Kellhus lay dying and Akka kneels by his side much like Seswatha did Celmomas'. There have been so many parallels between the first and second apocalypse so far that that would seem like an appropriate culmination in my mind

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« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2013, 03:42:11 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Big +1, Camlost. Can't wait for that one either. It smacks of inevitability, doesn't it...

As would the parallel of the Three Seas having to rely on a secondary civilization, like you and others suggest, Zeum parallels Kyranea (sp?).

Kneeling before Kellhus...

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« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2013, 03:42:22 pm »
Quote from: Centurion
Proyas might end up as Shriah eventually, but I doubt he will be Maithanet's direct successor.  I only say this because Maithanet is already dead and Proyas is marching with the Great Ordeal.  Kellhus' motives for revealing parts his true nature to Proyas are still vague, but I suspect they have more to do with the direct issue of the Consult (or possibly long term plans which could very well involve making Proyas the Shriah eventually).

I'm thinking that Esmenet will try to name her own puppet-Shriah to the position, and the consequences of her choice will probably act to fuel the conflict within the Empire while the Ordeal is off fighting in the north.