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Disagree.

Inrilatas is not a playing as Dunyain. Only Kelmomas plays a false game. I think Inrilatas is all truth here.

I wonder who Inrilatas would have guessed is the Voice?!

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Weird (and probably thematicaly significant) how Maitha is surprised by Inrilatas' 'soft' bones.

Yeah don't know what that is exactly supposed to mean. Maitha is half dunyain just like Kellhus' children. So it can't be the Dunyain traits that make up for the soft bones.

If it is strictly a comment on physical traits, then the parents become important, or since both fathers where full Dunyain, the mothers become important. We don't ever hear anything about Maitha's mother, which I find a bit odd considering how difficult it would have been for Kellhus to find a suitable mate if Esmi didn't fall into his lap. Maybe something about the third sight allowed Moe to be able to fine a soul probably proportioned for baring a half Dunyain child.

Though of course it could just be a way to describe their difference in upbringing. I assume that Maitha got pretty much the full Dunyain training, while Kell's children where largely abandoned. The soft bones business coming from the rigors of Dunyain child rearing, forced development of muscles and bones beyond strictly natural standards (like martial arts guys who can break bricks and wood that would snap a normal persons hand. Bones grow back stronger when damaged/broken).

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+1 Wilshire -- that sounds very plausible.

And speaking of Maitha's mother, it would seem that such a suitably proportioned soul is something to behold. I wonder if she'll ever play a part in the story or if we'll ever even learn who she is.

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"The God punishes us according to the degree we resemble him."
Inrilatas towered before him.
"And you resemble him, little brother.  You resemble ..."

... Ajokli?...

Memories tumbled into his soul's eye.  Memories of his Whelming, how he had followed the beetle to the feet of the Grinning God, the Four-horned Brother, how they had laughed when he had maimed the bug - laughed together!  Memories of the Yatwerian priestess, how she had shreiked blood while the Mother of Fertility stood helpless ...

Ah yes.  His memories go back to only the point of his whelming, and seemingly no further. Is his Dunyain subconscious trying to tell him something about the Whelming, only to be distracted yet again by the Beetle?

And like Kelmomas, I feel my own brain being distracted. Oh SHINY! Beetle, funny/horrific description, implications of sadism etc.  What a good way to distract the audience from seeing the magic trick by directing their attention to the other part of the paragraph, Bakker!

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Inrilatas is not a playing as Dunyain. Only Kelmomas plays a false game. I think Inrilatas is all truth here.

I wonder who Inrilatas would have guessed is the Voice?!

But he is when talking to Maitha?

"Strange, isn't it, Uncle?  The way we Dunyain, for all our gifts, can never speak?"

Theliopa says that Inrilatas is second only to Kellhus in his ability to read passions.  I don't think he's guessing by the end of his convo with lil Kel.

And I'm pretty sure this bit of Kel's POV confirms Inrilatas is playing as Dunyain:

He breathes as you breathe, the secret voice whispered, blinks as you blink - even his heartbeat captures your own! He draws your unthinking soul into the rythyms of his making. He mesmerizes you!

Doesn't mean Inrilatus isn't all truth though.  Truth and ignorance are the weapons of the Dunyain, after all.

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I honestly don't think Inrilatas has any goals, or intent, Curethan. None bound in sanity, anyhow.

And I'm pretty sure this bit of Kel's POV confirms Inrilatas is playing as Dunyain:

I think the exercise of Inrilatas' innate Dunyain abilities are thoughtless, incidental to what he's doing. It is the selfsame reason why he plays Maithanet. I don't think Inrilatas is using his gifts actively but his perceptions and behaviors, obviously, are passively enhanced regardless. A Dunyain's skill lies is reading anothers intent. Inrilatas has none, which is why he makes his meta-comment that you quoted, Curethan.

"I possess his sensitivities, but I utterly lack his unity.... his control ... I am the World's only unbound soul" (WLW, p225).

"Do you ever wonder, Kel, why it is I do what I do? ... I do it to heap damnation upon myself" (p228)

"So the God is ... unconstrained? ... so the God is like me." (p229)

My bold, text italics. I often wonder whether Inrilatas is in the deepest Hell or the brightest Heaven...

"Suddenly this little room, this shit-stained prison cell hidden from the light of shame, seemed a holy place, a temple to a different revelation, the nail of a darker heaven" (p229)

Little segue:

"Is she the grudge you bear against Uncle?" (p226)

Kellhus would sound Kelmomas instantly if he knew... which means he does or... he doesn't .

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Fair enough. 
I simply see Inrilatas' short term goals as valid.  Insane, certainly, but objectives none the less and no less valid than those of Kelmomas/Kelmomas' voice.

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They just scratch out the bits of the book they don't like, right?

Anyway, I doubt she's been left with real power. The empire has been left to burn, so the great ordeal has no where to go when the final, true ordeal is revealed to them. But I guess even if Kellhus calculated all the forces that would invade the empire  (and left it to happen), if he leaves, it is kind of outside forces that are doing it, so maybe she has been left with the power?

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They just scratch out the bits of the book they don't like, right?

Anyway, I doubt she's been left with real power. The empire has been left to burn, so the great ordeal has no where to go when the final, true ordeal is revealed to them. But I guess even if Kellhus calculated all the forces that would invade the empire  (and left it to happen), if he leaves, it is kind of outside forces that are doing it, so maybe she has been left with the power?

Crackpot:
Esmenet was taught the gnosis by Kellhus in secret, she rises up at the last moment and wipes the floor with the invading armies and helps the small band of decrepit schoolmen Kell left behind to destroy Meppa.
WLW, Fanyal, and the last cisharium defeated all at once.

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The Kellian Empire isn't going to fall... It'll teeter, perhaps, be reduced to Nansur status once again. The No-God is going to rise again...

Humanity unites towards the North.

Curethan, Kelmomas actually accomplishes what he went to do... everything else was useless semantics. He left the tool, which would free his brother and cause Maithanet's revolt. Not that that's what Kelmomas planned. Chaos rules?

Inrilatas believes what he's saying! He's the ultimate "no-filter."

EDIT: Also, I made a comment to Callan in Cnaiur's understanding to Kellhus thread in TTT subforum that Inrilatas would undermine the Conditioned Earwa Kellhus has created because Inrilatas won't control his innatities, if that helps my conception.

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After Caesar is slain, Esmenet marries Antony.

So Fanayal.

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I don't know...the Inrilatas and Kelmomas dialogue always sort of disappointed me.  I never felt like either character was anything but insane.  Irilatas talks a big game, has powers of perception and deduction to rival his father, but in the end he still spends his spare time throwing poop and foaming at the mouth.  Kelmomas hears a voice in his head which may or may not be the soul of his own twin brother. 

It seems obvious to me that Kellhus took efforts to remove Inrilatas from his grand schemes by imprisoning him.  I suppose that Kellhus could have just killed Inrilatas like Moenghus took care of his own flawed offspring, but I suspect that he chose not to as a way of maintaining order and placating Esmenet who has already been stretched to limit by her pregnancies and who Kellhus still needs.

Kelmomas represents a real enigma within a narrative already full of mysteries.  He's crazy, and even if his mind is serving as a vessel for his brother's soul he's still pretty nuts (ex. sadist and cannibal).  His existence troubles me for these reasons:

---Kelmomas believes that he has managed to hide beneath his father's gaze for so long because Kellhus has spent most of his time away.  However, Inrilatas was able to probe Kelmomas almost instantly.  It would seem to defy reason that Kellhus, a pure Dunyain, would not instantly notice the same irregularities in his son's face and manner that Inrilatas was able to catch onto almost instantly.

---Madness already said it: Kellhus either knows about Kelmomas or he doesn't, but both options have problems.  I've already pointed out the problem of Kellhus NOT knowing that there is something wrong with Kelmomas, but I suppose I could get around my hangups for the sake of the overall narrative.  Of course, what if Kellus DOES know about Kelmomas?  This has to be an option, but it also makes zero sense.  Why would Kellhus leave Kelmomas to run around free if he knows that the little monster is a psychopathic murderer?  Dunyain power is based on rationality, the Logos, and the irrationality of insanity would fundamentally alter their ability to calculate probability.  Mundane insanity might be something an intellect like Kellhus could work around, but throw Dunyain blood into the mix and everything changes (ex. Inrilatas' interrogation of Maithenet).

Moenghus himself claimed that his plan for Kellhus was ultimately flawed because he could not calculate the final reaction of the Inrithi nobility to Kellhus once he began to make his power-grab.  Similarly, Kellhus' sight and influence would have to be limited by his absence on the Great Ordeal, so if he has any long-term plans with his empire it should have behooved him to remove as many variables as possible.

In the end, I find myself coming to the conclusion that Kelmomas and Inrilatas are both just lunatics who happen to have a powerful genetic predisposition to super-genius intellects.  They both acted outside Kellhus' plans, but possibly within the greater structure of Kellhus' decision to abandon the Three Seas (assuming that Maithenet's conclusion was correct).  Inrilatas is dead now, and so is Maithenet.  However, Kelmomas is still out there, and that leaves a strong possibility of further breaks in Kellhus' plan.  Again, it is possible that Kellhus does understand the madness within his son, but it stretches belief that he would also be able to perfectly manipulate Kelmomas' actions while thousands of miles away.


On a completely unrelated note: Has anyone tried to figure out a distance scale for the Earwa map?

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First up, easy one:

Earwa is actually some four or five times the size of Europe. I put that allusory analogue of the Norwegian coast along the top as a sneaky way to guage the land masses involved.

I've updated my collection of quotes in the collected sayings thread - there is more about populations etc in there.

Inrilatas' motivations are strictly short term because of how the passions blow through him.  He only lacks control.  Thus the tendency towards honesty.

Kelmomas is trying to manipulate Inrilatus so that he will kill Maitha.  Think about how difficult it is to hide your motivations when manipulating people like that. 
There's the difference between hiding his nature from Inrilatas and hiding from Kellhus.

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but in the end he still spends his spare time throwing poop and foaming at the mouth.

Inrilatas is choosing to Damn himself as much as possible... It's that awesome?!

I've already pointed out the problem of Kellhus NOT knowing that there is something wrong with Kelmomas

Sorry, interested, where?

For my part, no matter what Kellhus' knowledge, he's irrevocably tampered with our reading of Kelmomas because we don't know what Kelmomas was like before his Whelming, even if nothing changed.

Again, it is possible that Kellhus does understand the madness within his son, but it stretches belief that he would also be able to perfectly manipulate Kelmomas' actions while thousands of miles away.

Is it such a stretch? The Gods, specifically Ajokli, must factor into Kellhus' plans... Even if the Kellian Empire is simply to distract them.

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Inrilatas is choosing to Damn himself as much as possible... It's that awesome?!

I just don't buy it.  I know it's a personal opinion, but there it is.  The books are so focused on perception and the definition of reality and truth in relation to the self, but neither Inrilatas nor Kelmomas are equipped to process their surroundings objectively.  It's like both of them are looking at the world with these awesome minds, but they can only see reality through the reflection of a broken mirror.  There might be many things which they can see and understand, but there's so many other things adulterated by their overriding passions (this is way more obvious with Kelmomas since we actually get POV with him).  We ultimately have no way of knowing if Irilatas is as cogent as he claims, and I have trouble believing he is.

You could argue that all of the characters (except Kellhus) have to deal with the same issues of perception, but the entire cast isn't insane.  Kelmomas is clearly mad, and Inrilatas makes a strong case for himself.

Sorry, interested, where?

Sorry.  I meant that for me the issue of Kellhus is a problem.  If Inrilatas can see Kelmomas' inner voice after only a short dialogue it seems a stretch that Kellhus would have missed the same even if he was gone most of the time (another personal opinion here).

Is it such a stretch? The Gods, specifically Ajokli, must factor into Kellhus' plans... Even if the Kellian Empire is simply to distract them.

It's always possible that this is all part of Kellhus' plan, but I prefer when Kellhus acts within the bounds of some sort of structure as opposed to something more akin to dues ex machina.  I don't see any structure here.  I'm sure that if Bakker means for this to all be part of the Plan he will reveal the pertinent information in time, but for now I just don't see it.  It seems more likely to me that Kelmomas is acting on his own to satsify his own base desires (and helping to push the Empire down a path Kellhus probably suspected was inevitable anyway).  Of course, at the same time I am left wondering how Kellhus could NOT know about Kelmomas, and if he did know he chose not address the issue.  It's all very circular, and for the time being it's the only major problem I have with the Aspect-Emperor. 

Lot's of personal opinions up there.^

Anyway, I'm assuming a lot at this point just because there's not a whole lot we know yet (and we all know what assuming does).  Probably best to take it all with a grain of salt.

Edit: Thanks for the info on Earwa's scale!