Interlude: Ishual

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« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2013, 04:18:01 pm »
Quote from: Madness
"Distant figures filed between the battlements before disappearing behind stone - the elder Dunyain abandoning their vigil. They would wind down the mighty staircases, Kellhus knew, and one by one enter the darkness of the Thousand Thousand Halls, the great Labyrinth that wheeled through the depths of Ishual. There they would die, as had been decided. All those his father had polluted" (TDTCB, p5).

Did Celmomas build over the entrance to a Mansion? Did he build Ishual at all? Did he strike a deal with Nil'giccas?

"Thousand Thousand Halls - The labyrinth constructed by the Dunyain beneath Ishual and used by them to test their initiates. Those who become lost in the Thousand Thousand Halls invariably die, ensuring that only the most intelligent survive" (TTT Glossary, p625).

Truth? My friend seems right.

"Because of this, events unfolded with granitic certainty in Ishual" (TDTCB, p7).

So there is a dark Labyrinth that becomes perfectly knowable to a Dunyanic threshold for human minds.

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« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2013, 04:18:09 pm »
Quote from: Borric
And from the prologue.

Climbing pitted mountain trails, Anasûrimbor Kellhus leaned on his knee and turned to look at the monastic citadel. Ishuals ramparts towered above a screen of spruce and larches, only to be dwarfed by the rutted mountain slopes beyond.

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« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2013, 04:18:19 pm »
Quote from: Borric
Quote from: Madness
Did he strike a deal with Nil'giccas?

I think that likely,  building a citadel in secret, in a mountain range would be nigh on impossible right?

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« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2013, 04:18:28 pm »
Quote from: Madness
I missed that quote, good eye, Borric.

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« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2013, 04:18:37 pm »
Quote from: Jayfish
Is it possible that the Dunyain have joined the Consult in some capacity? Given their disgust w/ Moe's "corruption" this seems almost likely.

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« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2013, 04:18:44 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Borric
And from the prologue.

Climbing pitted mountain trails, Anasûrimbor Kellhus leaned on his knee and turned to look at the monastic citadel. Ishuals ramparts towered above a screen of spruce and larches, only to be dwarfed by the rutted mountain slopes beyond.

All the other quotes about Ishual above this one, to me, tell only that there is something mighty underneath, but little about Ishual itself.

This, however, is extremely clear, and obviously I was talking out of my ass earlier :P.

So there we have it, Ishual stood, mighty and implacable, hidden through 2000 years of strife and termoil, untouched by the ravages time. A shame its all gone = (. Im so disappointed now.

Anyways, that does somewhat give credence to the fact that it wasn't really hidden, it was a big castle, taller than even the trees (which had been growing for at least 2000 years at this point), and that the Consult or anyone else that knew they should be looking for something in that area would be able to find it without much difficulty (aside from the sranc and the elements....)

Edit:
Quote from: Truth Shines
Quote from: Wilshire
So he has daddy issues, doesn't mean he hates his entire village.
If he said "You are father still, Dunyain"  I'd agree with you (and laugh at him for sounding like an idiot).  The text seems pretty unambiguous: Kellhus killed his father for being a Dunyain.

Re-reading that section again, it's pretty amazing just how unambiguous Kellhus's whole motive seems to be: war against the No-God and save the world.  So why is it that so many of us readers seem to share this nagging suspicion that all is not what it seems?

I disagree that its clear. He killed his father for what he knew, for being against his plan to destroy the no-god, for being a dunyain that saw the Thousandfold Thought but not agreeing as to what it meant. But he did not kill him simply for being a dunyain. Why? Because every single dunyain that has grasped TTT has come to a different conclusion as to what it means and where it leads, so you cannot conclude that Kell would like to kill all the dunyain.

Maithanet, Kelmomas, Inrilatas, Moenghus, Kellhus. All of these we either know or have good reason to believe that they have grasped TTT. Moe and Kell obviously disagree as to what should be done, Kel only just grasped it but I'm sure he will take a path that leads him closer to his mother (and screws everyone else), Inrilatas is dead so who knows about that one, and Maitha im not sure. Regardless, everyone sees something different.

Also, while there is a large agreement in the community as to what the TTT is exactly, there is still some confusion as to what it does and how it can be 'used'. Unlike the inverse fire there are many different paths that seeing TTT will lead you to and it seems to be very subjective. There are several threads on this topic.

It reads such that Moe would like to save the world by shutting out the gods, and Kell would like to save it be destroying the Consult and keeping the world open. To me, this is unambiguous and clear. However, as we have learned, what is obvious to some is not so obvious to others, and just because you seem to believe its simple doesn't mean everyone necessarily agrees. I don't know if there are many, if any, threads on this forum that dont have some sort of disagreement in them. Clear is relative, as is unambiguous and obvious. There are several threads discussing this debate about Moe and Kell, "Moe is a lying liar who lies" comes to mind immediately.


Anyways.
The nagging suspicion likely comes from the WHCB section that declare Kellhus as mad. One never quite knows what
a mad man will do.

Quote from: Jayfish
Is it possible that the Dunyain have joined the Consult in some capacity? Given their disgust w/ Moe's "corruption" this seems almost likely.

Entirely possible. Though there are a lot of political and historical issues that would need to be explained first to really decide whether or not this is likely. Ignoring all that though, if you simply look at what the Consult did, or allegedly did, to the Nonman, it wouldn't seem too extraordinary. The Nonmen spent thousands of years warring against the Consult and ended up joining up with them later. Should be easier to convince some monks in the mountains to join up with you, at least when compared to the people you spend a millennium or two trying to exterminate.

The inverse fire goes a long way it would seem.

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« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2013, 04:18:54 pm »
Quote from: Fëanor
Quote from: Wilshire
To clarify, Aurang was interrogating his prisoners north of the Sea of Cerish (which is East not south), and I believe it was near Myclai (thought this is the only map marker in that area so I could just be making that part up).
Aurang? Isn't it Aurax? I don´t remember if it is said, but I always thought Aurang was confined (by the time) in the Synthese, and that the abomination who tortured northeastern people (look how far from Ishual, they don´t seem to have a clue... though in 20 years, who knows?) was Aurax.

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« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2013, 04:19:04 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Yeah probably Aurax, not 100% sure to be honest, but he is defiantly  in the northeast.

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« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2013, 04:19:13 pm »
Quote from: Madness
See I think that the Dunyain would seek to dominate their circumstances, no matter how profoundly fucked up embodying that mastery makes them.

And that's the crux. We have Kellhus' assertions, read assumptions, that those were Moenghus' goals. We have none of Moenghus' crucial perspective in the climax of TTT and we simply took Bakker's cue and filed the Dunyain under "Will Join Consult."

This has been the motivating idea behind the Dunyain and their possible domination of Ishterebinth by the twisting of Nonmen Selves. As Malowebi suggests the Dunyain are Thought-Dancers, able to adopt complete perspectives, even of other species, easier than we change clothes. The Dunyain would probably do absolutely anything to dominate the Universe until it can just sit in the middle of the world while existence pulsates around them, dancing to its tune.

Actually, reminds me of Azathoth.

Ultimately, the Dunyain do not share in the motivations of lesser souls... those tools are the levers that dominate.

Neither does Kellhus.

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« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2013, 04:19:21 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Agreed. Perhaps they realized that isolation would only be possible after complete control was established. Maybe they are going out into the world, conquering every spec of Earwa until they can assure themselves the solitude they so desire. Only a Dunyain ruled world would be able to set up an absolutely isolated culture that would last long enough to truly obtain their self-moving goal.
Their very own Kwisatz Haderach (just for fun - Kwisatz Haderach: "Shortening of the Way." This is the label applied by the Bene Gesserit to the unknown for which they sought a genetic solution ... and The very superbeing for whom the Bene Gesserit had schemed and waited becomes the instrument by which their order is diminished.)

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« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2013, 04:19:29 pm »
Quote from: Blackstone
It was my understanding that Kell killed his father because he realized that his father would eventually side with the consult to prevent his damnation. If the other Dunyain didn't practice sorcery (and we know they don't), it seems unlikely that they would join the consult. What's their motivation?

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« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2013, 04:19:37 pm »
Quote from: Madness
+1, Wilshire. Don't know why I didn't previously.

"'What are they, Pragma?'

'Exemplary defectives... Specimens. We retain them for purposes of eduction.' The Pragma simulated a smile. 'For students such as you, Kellhus.'

...

Their heads were drawn forward into open iron frames, where they were held motionless by bracketing bars. Behind their heads, wires had been fixed to the base of each frame. These swept forward in a radial fashion, ending in tiny silver hooks that anchored the obscuring skin. Slick muscle gleamed in the light. To Kellhus, it looked as though each man had thrust his head into a spider web that had peeled away his face.

Pragma Meigon had called it the Unmasking Room" (TWP, p461).

It think this might be Damn worthy, neh, Blackstone?

As I highlighted above though, I really can't suggest that Moenghus thought he was Damned at all... Perhaps, Kellhus is mad (another assertion I don't support) and the Dunyain, in their perfect, Thought-Dancer, rational way, would simply prevent the apocalypse because they can?

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« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2013, 04:19:44 pm »
Quote from: Blackstone
Quote from: Madness
+1, Wilshire. Don't know why I didn't previously.



It think this might be Damn worthy, neh, Blackstone?

As I highlighted above though, I really can't suggest that Moenghus thought he was Damned at all... Perhaps, Kellhus is mad (another assertion I don't support) and the Dunyain, in their perfect, Thought-Dancer, rational way, would simply prevent the apocalypse because they can?

Eh, maybe. But that is assuming that Dunyain would believe in the same morality as everyone else.

I don't think that Moe thought he was damned at the time Kell killed him, I believe that Kell decided through the thousand fold thought that Moe would eventually realize he was damned and help bring about the apocalypse as a result.

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« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2013, 04:19:51 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Blackstone
It was my understanding that Kell killed his father because he realized that his father would eventually side with the consult to prevent his damnation

I don't fully agree with this. I agree that Kell probably killed Moe to prevent him from joining the Consult and so on, but I don't think Moe would have done so to prevent his damnation. Mainly because I don't think that Moe really believed in the whole damnation/afterlife thing anyway.
I think it was more of a matter of philosophical differences that would have led Moe to the Consult and Kell against them.

I'd have to admit though I never really considered Moe's thoughts on the metaphysics of damnation. Him having the third sight and all... about as good as seeing the inverse fire ...

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« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2013, 04:19:59 pm »
Quote from: Blackstone
Quote from: Wilshire

I don't fully agree with this. I agree that Kell probably killed Moe to prevent him from joining the Consult and so on, but I don't think Moe would have done so to prevent his damnation. Mainly because I don't think that Moe really believed in the whole damnation/afterlife thing anyway.
I think it was more of a matter of philosophical differences that would have led Moe to the Consult and Kell against them.

Kellhus to Moenghus: "The crimes you've committed, Father...the sins...When you learn of the damnation that awaits you, when you come to believe, you will be no different from the Inchoroi. As Dunyain, you will be compelled to master the consequences of your wickedness. Like the Consult, you will come to see tyranny in what is holy...And you will war as they war." (TTT 375). It goes on to describe Kell going into the probability trance and seeing a future where Moe assassinates him and becomes emperor, only to sacrifice humanity to the Consult, Sranc, No-God, etc... Perhaps Moe wouldn't have done that, but Kellhus most assuredly thought Moe would, and so killed him.

On the other hand, I found another passage that might support Kellhus wiping out the Dunyain: "'The Dunyain,' Moenghus continued, 'think the world closed, that the mundane is all there is, and in this they are most certainly wrong.'" (TTT 367).j Perhaps Kell reached the same decision about the Dunyain as he did about his father.