[What Came Before]

+1, Blackstone. Lol, that's awesome. I was thinking to post the second quote as I was reading the first.

Moenghus knew things Kellhus did not at that point in the narrative. The Third Sight is just another of the mysteries Meppa offers us...

[What Came Before]

Being aware of some kind of damnation machine and truely believing in it are separate. Kellhus letting his daddy know that hes going to hell really doesn't have much consequence if Moe doesn't care to listen. There is always that third sight though.

Kellhus is also Dunyain. If he changed through his journey and his discovery of whatever the Dunyain had hidden, it is likely that other would too. Based on the information we have, a wholesale slaughter of all his brethren seems unlikely. Though we don't know a whole lot and I can't say I would be surprised if Kell did wipe them all out for some unknown reason.

[What Came Before]

Thanks for that quote Blackstone. I'm calling it now - at least some of the Dunyain have gone over the Consult. That's just too interesting of a storyline for it not to happen. Moreover, I have trouble believing we've seen the last of the Dunyain.

[What Came Before]

a dunyain vs dunyain, mundane or magical battle would be ...... interesting.

A lot of thinking and not a lot of moving I'd imagine.

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Being aware of some kind of damnation machine and truely believing in it are separate. Kellhus letting his daddy know that hes going to hell really doesn't have much consequence if Moe doesn't care to listen. There is always that third sight though.

Kellhus is also Dunyain. If he changed through his journey and his discovery of whatever the Dunyain had hidden, it is likely that other would too. Based on the information we have, a wholesale slaughter of all his brethren seems unlikely. Though we don't know a whole lot and I can't say I would be surprised if Kell did wipe them all out for some unknown reason.

Regardless of whether or not Moe would have believed in his own damnation, Kellhus believed that Moe would. That's why he killed him.

I'm also not saying the Kellhus killed the other Dunyain, but he was the only person that for sure knew their location.

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And I'm saying Kellhus killed Moenghus for bogus rationality... but +1, Blackstone. Except Cnaiur knows the Demua Mountain range, I'd hazard.

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I'm pretty sure that this is one of the few, if not only, Ishual thread we have going so I thought I'd add some thoughts.

I'm studying the Republic for the fifth time academically, not to mention the times I read it for and in high school, and in the years between institutions.

I cannot believe I never thought about this before but Ishual is the City of the Republic.

Who are the Philosopher-Kings? The Pragma?
What classes are there besides the Guardian class? Is Kellhus one of these, as would be my Nerdanelized theory about a Dunyain who conditions Ishterebinth, so as to better condition the very world? If so, is he bound by the Myth of the Metals, or does his training reflect standing outside the lie?

God-Emperor of Dune spoiler:

(click to show/hide)

Are the Dunyain simply the Fish Speakers and Kellhus himself an analogy for a far more incomprehensible Dunyain...

[What Came Before]

The Third Sight was mentioned...I guess it just hit me that I don't know what this refers to.  I mean, I know that it's something that Moe allegedly possesses, and his following within the Cishaurim attempt to possess it too.

Here's what I assumed that it meant...but please let me know if I'm wrong.

Regular vision is sight or the first sight.  The way the Cish apprehend the world after losing their eyes is the 2nd sight, so that existed before Moenghus came along.  So the 3rd sight is the Cishaurim name for Moe's Dunyain insights or another name for the Logos.

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I'm pretty sure the third sight is just what the Cish call their 'vision' after blinding themselves. But now you have made me feel uncertain.

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first sight = eyeball sight
second sight = snake sight
third sight = 'blind' sight


conclusion?

vampires in space, bitches.

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Re 3rd sight...

First = Mundane sight

Second sight would more likely be the ability to percieve the onta.

Third sight is probably a deepening of this attained by removing the confusion generated by the subjective frame of mundane sight.

Hints as to its qualities;
- Moe 'shines' in the third sight - inidcates it is possessed by all Cish.  Suggests some relationship with the strength of the logos in a soul or the ability to see from the perspective of others
- Cish in the shadow ways that Akka and Xin walk can see very well and emite some kind of 'light' with their gaze.  Suggests it isn't related to their snakes.
- Meppa can see Psatma's objective nature rather than the subjective frame she presents post-Yatwerian 'gift'.

It's problematic because some of these clues seem to suggest that the third sight enables Cish to see the soul of individuals instead of their physical form but this is impossible or they would have uncovered the skin spies indepentantly of Moe and would never have suspected the SS as being behind them.

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Curethan's got it right, I think. Second Sight is what the Few possess. Third Sight is what Cishaurim possess.

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a fourth kind?

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a fourth kind?

I was thinking that regular sight is first sight, Cish sight is 2nd sight, and Logos/Moe is 3rd sight.  The comments in the text suggest that Moe "shines" in the 3rd sight and yet we are also told he's pretty weak w/ the Water, so that is where my confusions comes from.  Does he "shine" w/ The Water or something else?  Since he has this faction within the Cish, I assume he's got this other mini-3rd Sight cult going on, and I suspect it's based on Logos or something like it.

[What Came Before]

I was thinking that regular sight is first sight, Cish sight is 2nd sight, and Logos/Moe is 3rd sight.  The comments in the text suggest that Moe "shines" in the 3rd sight and yet we are also told he's pretty weak w/ the Water, so that is where my confusions comes from.  Does he "shine" w/ The Water or something else?  Since he has this faction within the Cish, I assume he's got this other mini-3rd Sight cult going on, and I suspect it's based on Logos or something like it.

I was under the impression that all of the Cish can see that Moe shines brightly in the third sight which is explained somewhere as the reason Moe is given a position of respect among the Cish even considering his relative 'weakness' when it came to the amount of his Water. So I am in the camp of:

First Sight - regular eyesight
Second Sight - the ability to perceive the Onta
Third Sight - using the snakes and/or the third eye in the forehead to see

Perhaps Third Sight is something similar to a simpler man-made version of the Judging Eye (Fourth Sight?).