The Gods, the God of Gods, and the Solitary God

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« on: June 01, 2013, 11:46:47 pm »
Quote from: BargiltheDestroyer
So the Gods are compared to larger Ciphrang, powerful agencies that exist within the Outside who feast on souls.

So what exactly is the God of Gods and the Solitary God, and how are they related?

I think the God of Gods, as has been mentioned in the books, is the sum of the Gods and the consciousnesses of en-souled beings.  After all, Inri Sejenus refers to the God of Gods as the "Thousand-Souled" or something to that effect.  However, I also think that the Solitary God and the God of Gods are the same entity.  The SG is described as transcendent, so my theory is that while the God of Gods is the sum total of all consciousnesses, that sum has also developed its own consciousness separate from the parts, which is the Solitary God.  The Solitary God is the "person" of the God of Gods, the conscious agency of the God of Gods.  I'm wondering if this works with the Gods being considered parts of the whole in the Inrithi tradition and the Gods being considered "demons" in the Fanim?

What Came Before

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« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2013, 11:46:55 pm »
Quote from: Jorge
It's possible they are the same, or that they represent Demiurge and Monad as in real-world Gnostic thought.

In the real world, different schools interpreted the Demiurge as either benevolent or malevolent.

It's also possible nothing is at seems and the Inchoroi's game goes much deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeppppppppppppppppperrr


What Came Before

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« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2013, 11:47:04 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Lol, yeah. We need to go deeper :D.

What Came Before

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« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2013, 11:47:10 pm »
Quote from: Imparrhas
I don't know what the difference, if any, between the God of Gods and the Solitary God is but I know one is described as immanent and the other as transcendent. There were many good reasons for Kellhus to take the Inrithi side in the Holy War: the path laid out by his father, the fact that the Psukhe works on emotions, simple geography. But could there be a further reason in that Fanimry is, compared to Inrithism, not a very good tool for someone who would change society by speaking for the God? Do we know of any divine intervention in Fanimry other than the Cishaurim and their Holy Water?

Edit:
Quote from: TTT Glossary
History (Inrithism) - The movement of human events through time. The significance of History for the Inrithi is that the God is manifested within it. The Inrithi believe that certain configurations of events express the truth of the God while certain other configurations are inimical to such expressions.
This is contrasted with the Dunyain's mechanistic view of history but still it mentions Inrithism specifically and not Fanimry or the Kinnuat.

Edit2:
Quote from: TTT Glossary
Solitary God - "Allonara Yulah" (Kianni) The names used by Fanim to denote the transcendent singularity of their supreme deity. According to Fanim tradition, the God is not, as the Inrithi claim, immanent in existence, nor is He manifold in the way described by the Latter Prophet.

Edit3:
Another relevant entry. I never noticed this one before today.
Quote from: TTT Glossary
Kahiht - The name given to so called World-Souls in the Inrithi tradition. Since the God manifests himself in the movement of historical events in Inrithism, to be Kahiht, or a world historical individual, is considered sacred.
Sounds like anyone we know?

Gaston de Foix

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« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2014, 11:17:46 pm »
So Fane and Triamis are both Kahiht and therefore sacred?

Madness

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« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2014, 01:29:03 pm »
I'd agree with that argument. So say the Inrithi.

Lol, though you might piss them off with the Fane bit.
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Gaston de Foix

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« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2014, 03:44:13 pm »
Since both the Judging Eye and the WLW play such a prominent role in the books, I figured lumping Kahiht together with them (which Mathai does in WLW) was a big fat authorial clue...to what, I don't know.

Madness

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« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2014, 03:48:14 pm »
Does Maithanet mention them together as well? I know Achamian does when he is comparing the TJE to other folklore for Mimara.
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Gaston de Foix

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« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2014, 05:13:12 pm »
you are right, it is Akka not Maitha.

I think this might be one of the instances where the glossary to TTT is misleading.

Madness

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« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2014, 05:48:18 pm »
+1
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mrganondorf

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« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2014, 06:12:51 pm »
I have wondered if this is an area that Bakker will never really map out.  I think he's said something about the 'caprice of the outside' ... let's see:

"The caprice of the Outside (where the distinction between subject and object is never clear) is such that those rare souls who walk its ways and return never seem to agree on the nature of what they have seen. Since only demonic (as opposed to angelic) Ciphrang can be summoned and trapped in the World, practitioners of the Daimos can never trust the reports they receive: the so-called Damnation Archives in the Scarlet Spires are rumoured to be filled with wild contradictions. The Damned themselves only know that they are damned, and never why."

http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.com/2011/07/r-scott-bakker-interview-part-2.html

Part of me thinks that he's not going to map a lot of the outside because it functions for Earwe the way the map does: not global just enough land and sea to situate a continent inside a nice square.

dulac3

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« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2014, 04:17:12 pm »
I'm a new poster who just finished _The White-Luck Warrior_ and am anxious to get to _The Unholy Consult_ as soon as possible...great stuff. I have to admit that some of the things that have come more to the fore in the new series in regards to actually getting a glimpse of the gods is making me wonder exactly how the religious metaphysics, and esp. the make-up of the hundred and the One, of Bakker's world actually works.

So, we know that the hundred "can't see" the No-god, which I guess can make some sort of sense from the perspective that their interest/powers/authority resides in the elements of the created world and esp. in the lives of those with souls. So, I guess I can see how in some sort of overarching sense of 'picking up on the life-force' (or whatever) of the No-god isn't happening, BUT how is it really possible that these gods, who have been shown to have close, and even personal, connections with the lives and thoughts of humans could be unaware of the effect that the No-god is having on the world...the utter havoc he wreaked during the First Apocalypse and the subsequent ways in which the No-god's existence was imprinted on the life of Earwa. Are we really supposed to believe that the hundred are unaware of this, or are willfully ignoring it/think it's just a lie?! Kind of hard for me to swallow that they can either be completely unaware of it, or that they choose to ignore the obvious signs/fallout that the No-god's existence brings about.

Also, in regards to the hundred and the One. I also assumed that the hundred were 'finite aspects' of the One...expressions of the One's being that existed apart from him, but were ultimately derived from him. So, based on power level/participation in the fundamental aspects of reality they are contingent to him and thus weaker...but I am unclear on whether or not the One is also unaware of the No-god's existence in the same way as the hundred? If not, then it seems strange to me that there has been no visible action on his part to counter the No-god (unless the ultimate triumph of Anaxophus V and Seswatha is to be attributed to his intervention in some way).

Finally I'm wondering how damnation really works in this world. My initial impressions were that it was pretty much something that could not be un-done and that regardless of one's intentions one would be damned for one's actions if they were classified as evil (though I'm not sure how that can be objectively codified given that amongst the hundred are gods who might view some pretty heinous actions as "virtuous" and therefore one man's damnation might be another's salvation as long as he did it for the right god), but Mimara implies that Galian can be still be saved, though I really wonder how. Does this mean someone like Achamian could be saved if this elusive retributive action can be done? Or is the practice of sorcery a sin that cannot be forgiven?

Sorry for the rambling and incoherence. Any thoughts?


Wilshire

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« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2014, 04:31:46 pm »
Lots of good thoughts, Welcome to the forum.

We have long mused on many of those idea's and I have little evidence to offer you to sate your thirst for knowledge.

However, regarding Mimara 'saving' Galian:
Too me that scene suggests that there is some kind of "damned/redeemed" accumulation system. When the person dies, if he has more damnation points than redeemed points, he goes to some kind of hell. Mimara's commentary about him being save-able was then pointing out that he was basically at a tie game, and one more good deed before he died might have saved his soul.

Given that, I would assume "anyone" could be saved, given enough time and effort. However, I think Akka is almost irreparably damned due to him being a vindictive mass murderer (I love the guy, but lets be honest, he's not grade A heavenly material). Its hard to do enough good deeds to redeem the wholesale slaughter of fields/cities full of people, or willfully and leading a group of people to their deaths.
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Madness

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« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2014, 04:33:19 pm »
Welcome to the Second Apocalype, dulac3. You may not know this I had you pegged for a spammer - and I apologize as this post was not rambling or incoherent at all.

So, we know that the hundred "can't see" the No-god, which I guess can make some sort of sense from the perspective that their interest/powers/authority resides in the elements of the created world and esp. in the lives of those with souls. So, I guess I can see how in some sort of overarching sense of 'picking up on the life-force' (or whatever) of the No-god isn't happening, BUT how is it really possible that these gods, who have been shown to have close, and even personal, connections with the lives and thoughts of humans could be unaware of the effect that the No-god is having on the world...the utter havoc he wreaked during the First Apocalypse and the subsequent ways in which the No-god's existence was imprinted on the life of Earwa. Are we really supposed to believe that the hundred are unaware of this, or are willfully ignoring it/think it's just a lie?! Kind of hard for me to swallow that they can either be completely unaware of it, or that they choose to ignore the obvious signs/fallout that the No-god's existence brings about.

I'm thinking the Gods can't actually perceive the time when the No-God walked. Like that is a blind spot in their temporal perspective that they don't see and don't see they don't see. I agree with how you've interpreted their perspective overall though.

Also, in regards to the hundred and the One. I also assumed that the hundred were 'finite aspects' of the One...expressions of the One's being that existed apart from him, but were ultimately derived from him. So, based on power level/participation in the fundamental aspects of reality they are contingent to him and thus weaker...but I am unclear on whether or not the One is also unaware of the No-god's existence in the same way as the hundred? If not, then it seems strange to me that there has been no visible action on his part to counter the No-god (unless the ultimate triumph of Anaxophus V and Seswatha is to be attributed to his intervention in some way).

Depending on which interpretation of Christian/Pagan texts and Machiavelli that Bakker is riffing off of Fate is either an agent of the God of Gods, the Solitary God, the Hundred, or, most likely, in my opinion, Her own agent and so none of the above.

But I don't think we know enough about the possible antecedents - i.e. The Gods of Gods or the Solitary God to make good guesses about where and when they might express their agency.

Finally I'm wondering how damnation really works in this world. My initial impressions were that it was pretty much something that could not be un-done and that regardless of one's intentions one would be damned for one's actions if they were classified as evil (though I'm not sure how that can be objectively codified given that amongst the hundred are gods who might view some pretty heinous actions as "virtuous" and therefore one man's damnation might be another's salvation as long as he did it for the right god), but Mimara implies that Galian can be still be saved, though I really wonder how. Does this mean someone like Achamian could be saved if this elusive retributive action can be done? Or is the practice of sorcery a sin that cannot be forgiven?

Sorry for the rambling and incoherence. Any thoughts?

There seems to be an accumulation threshold. Like how Mimara sees that Sutadra was a good man, acting only for the benefit of others, but forced to make moral concessions (this actually doesn't bode well for Proyas) by the world, Damnation that he takes on himself... and she seems to see that no matter what Sutadra could have done to upend the scales through the rest of his life.

So say I lived for 100 days and I committed the same amount of evil every minute of every day for 51 days but then committed an equal amount of good every minute of every day for the next 49, it wouldn't be enough.

Or I lived 100 day and committed some terrible atrocity or benefit on day 1 and no amount of accumulation throughout the other 99 could tip the scales from that moment.

Lol and of course, Wilshire beat me to it:

However, regarding Mimara 'saving' Galian:
Too me that scene suggests that there is some kind of "damned/redeemed" accumulation system. When the person dies, if he has more damnation points than redeemed points, he goes to some kind of hell. Mimara's commentary about him being save-able was then pointing out that he was basically at a tie game, and one more good deed before he died might have saved his soul.

+1.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2014, 08:00:52 pm »
Shazam. (by 1 minute and 33 seconds)
One of the other conditions of possibility.