You know something, Beard? If you have it in you ( not a challenge, we all have busy lives - meaning if you have the time/interest ) and Bakker approves, it would be cool to have you ( with your gift for humor/street language ) write a companion piece to the PON series which would provide clarity on both what we're supposed to know and what is supposed to be mystery with these books. It would be fun, funny and provide much needed perspective for us lower minds such as myself.

For starters - biggest problem I had with the books is I made the mistake of trying to pronounce the names of peoples and places myself. It would have been a big help if there was a pronunciation glossary with the books. You could write the names phonetically in the companion. When I read the books again, I'm just going to create pet names for everyone so when I see it, I don't slow down wondering "is that the same person as before, etc". For the first 2 books, I thought Ishroi and the Inchoroi where the same ( both Non-men ) ... didn't realize until the 3rd book the Inchoroi were aliens. I know, I'm dumb, right? But I bet there are others who encountered similar difficulty following the story. That said, it's not a criticism. I love that Bakker doesn't hold the hand of the reader, yielding some beautiful writing. Like when Cleric becomes possessed in Cil-Ajus - another writer would say he was possessed - but Bakker describes as "dons like finery", which was a really cool way of putting it. So the translation the reader makes from description to understanding is wicked cool/fun ( and makes me feel smart when I do it successfully ) ... just struggled with the names and apparently too often failed to grasp what he was getting at. Like the description of Seswatha checking out the Ark completely lost me ... just too hard to follow, maybe the extreme nature of the thing was too hard to understand from mere words.

If you're interested, you could take a stab at "summarizing" the timeline posted online with your funny way of putting things - like ( forgive me, I do not have your talents, this just an example ) "ship with big horns crashes into Earwa, turns earth into lava, cools off, aliens jump out and tell non-men, "fuck you!", no-men reply, "No, not fuck me ... FUCK YOU!", they fight, non-men win, but aliens trick non-men ... ". That was way too general, would need a few dates in there with more detail, etc.

Anyways, think your comedy could translate into comic writing as well is all I'm saying. Appears you're taking a stab it already with your aewarian comic contest. Not trying to drag you into doing something you don't want to do, just thought I would throw it out there. If you're not into it, then maybe Bakker ( if he reads this stuff ) can get off his ass and write it himself ( doesn't have to be funny if he's not gifted with the art, but a "history" - something more robust than the glossary at the end of TTT ).

- TH

As for cabdriving, why would you doubt my claim? Cab drivers need to be somewhat agile and quick-witted, qualities also found in musicians and comics.

Exactly! Why I questioned it! The LACK of those qualities expressed here drives my doubt ...

Hee, hee, you know I'm screwing with you, right? Was going for the whole question anything you claim if there's a shred of decency/competence required. Seems like you can take it, you're the rare comic Sylvendi in my eyes ( compliment intended ). If I could attend Zundanicon 2017, I would first show in disguise, scope out the situation, ensuring it's meant to be a "happy" reunion ( hoping that if it wasn't, all I would have to do is tell you I destroyed Ishual and you would let me go ).

Do you reveal you're "friendly" language you sport here in church? Or are you a skin spy there too?

Quote from: TaoHorror on May 05, 2017, 12:52:47 pm

Would it be accurate ( or near the mark ) to say the origin of the Consult is another Bakker warning to us readers to not be so quick to damn others? If I understand it correctly, the whole sale slaughter of humanity is to thwart damnation - by aliens, by non-men and even by men/sorcerers. Damnation of sorcerers brought hell to Earwa ( read: Earth ), made real with the help of some curious George's ( sorcerers wanting to explore The Aporos ). Another warning as well ensuring curiosity doesn't morph into monstrosity. What is unknown to me is if Chorae kills Sorcerers of Aporos as it does others ( interesting stratagem to design the weapon which defeats yourself ).

I think near the mark (actually a pun, considering your speculation hear the end there) that the Consult is yet another post-human allegory.  I do beleive that both the Inchoroi and Nonmen are also post-human allegories as well, something of a look at some of the dangers of supplanting "natural" boundaries with technological ones.

There is more though, because one of the biggest themes of the whole Second Apocalypse series is the role of Meaning.  Note that I capitalize it there, because it isn't just meaning as in a definition or explanation, but rather the way in which the world, the universe, is structured.  Mimara gives us a look at the disembodied, "objective" meaning through the Eye, but even that raises questions about how and why the Cubit is as it is.  Where does that Meaning come from?

Kellhus takes something of the role of the "hero" here, in the way that he embodies something of a Humanistic view, which appeals to (most) of our modern sensibilities, something of a seeming Meaning for Humans, by Humans.  But Kellhus also embodies a lot of ambiguity and it's often unclear what his ultimate aims really are.  The Consult are pretty clear in wanting a destruction of greater Meaning though, since they want a shut world where consequences can be directly mitigated, where pleasure, power and whim are rewarded, if not at least unpunished.  What Kellhus really wants is not as clear, but TGO gives us a hint that it is in some way denying the 100 their "harvest" of the Damned.

So, how then does Kellhus and the Consult differ?  That's what remains to be seen. I guess the "simplest" dichotomy would be the Consult want to end all Meaning, where Kellhus want to forge new Meaning.

Hmm ... I like it ... Kellhus is out to "destroy" Hell ... or at least eliminate the mechanism for which humans are sent there. I think you may be on to something there, Hannibal ( can I call you, Hannibal? ... take it you don't want me to call you "Tool" given the recent exchange of references ).

"missed something" ... "always a concern" ... glad someone said it out loud, LOL! Yeah, you could say I've missed a few things with this series - hence, so appreciative of the friendly help I get here figuring things out. Not sure how accurate, but the Prince of Nothing wikia timeline helped me a great deal sorting out a few things - manly how/who/what the origin of the Consult - for some reason, I struggled to pull that out from the novels. Would it be accurate ( or near the mark ) to say the origin of the Consult is another Bakker warning to us readers to not be so quick to damn others? If I understand it correctly, the whole sale slaughter of humanity is to thwart damnation - by aliens, by non-men and even by men/sorcerers. Damnation of sorcerers brought hell to Earwa ( read: Earth ), made real with the help of some curious George's ( sorcerers wanting to explore The Aporos ). Another warning as well ensuring curiosity doesn't morph into monstrosity. What is unknown to me is if Chorae kills Sorcerers of Aporos as it does others ( interesting stratagem to design the weapon which defeats yourself ).

All true - but remember, Non-man ashe consumption provides impressive ( though addictive ) powers to humans - hint of magic at play here.

Well said, MSJ - the confrontation between Mo and K in the end epic battle of TTT was simply delicious - that conversation/debate going on in the middle of the crazed destruction of Shimeh was the long awaited highlight of the series at that point ... and it was slow, Bakker taking his time, leaving nothing out - perfection.

Agree with Madness - he's getting better and better, each book besting the previous ( thwarting, so far, Sick Boy's Unifying Theory of Life ... ). But TTT was particularly special in that it delivered. I was a wreck finishing TTT, laid to waste, dazed but wild with a child's like fun/joy. Almost like I was there ...

Ah, thank you! I've already pre-ordered/paid for my copy from Amazon, says it's being released in July.

Not to get all sappy on everyone - but Bakker's descriptions of the "first" apocalypse have effected me, his description of horror is so much more powerful than anything I've read, including Herbert and Simmons, which screams a lot. The dragons dropping from the skies, snatching up humans was really horrifying to me. This idea of humans being so defenseless to something not human ... at risk of exposing my species conceit, but it's unnatural. Bakker takes the next step of a species overwhelming us, not just a mono a mono fight ( like a single human with no tools/weapons being overcome by a tiger for example ), but all of humanity, "naked", before something so powerful. And the terribleness of magic ( that fight with the Slvendi in the first book was just frightening, imagining people "walking" into the sky with the light shining out of the mouths and eyes ) - the mass MURDER of such a thing. This is the most plausible take on fantasy I've read - for dragons and magic would be the stuff of horror, not some interesting cool thing. Other books have people riding dragons and teaching magic in schools to children ... no ... it would be a fucked up nightmare.