[MSJ]

Since I can't scroll down when modifying a post (another issue madness and wilshire), I meant prophet, not project.

[jurble]

Yours is based on circumstantial evidence

As an aside, I don't like this argument because it implies circumstantial evidence is weighed less or should weigh less than direct evidence (confessions and witnesses identifying the suspect), yet direct evidence can be lies.   I mean, irl, the weight the American legal system gives to direct evidence is one of its fatal flaws having led to numerous false convictions over our history. In the text, direct evidence has often been lies.   

The baby being Holy, in all honesty goes against or theory if anything. Because, of all we've learned about what damned one, Kelly is should be damned as no other. But, I do think Kelly is is Holy for reasons and proof that hasn't come about yet.

Should he, though?  Because despite Mimara possessing the Judging Eye, we still understand little about what damns and what saves.  Mimara and Esmenet are Saved for some reason, and definitely in the case of the latter, she has committed numerous sins - she has had innocents slaughtered, tortured, burned - yet the only sins Mimara sees are the carnal sins meaning Esmenet committed no sins when acting for Kellhus.  So if anything, whether Kellhus should be damned is an utter mystery, given the weird circumstances that seem to absolve sins.

[MSJ]

To your point on what damns and saves. We know through Koringhus and even Kellhus in TUC, what is Holy. Its textual evidence. I have linked quotes multiple times across many threads on this forum. Ignorance, and innocence are the most Holy attributes on Earwa. Its why Sërwe is a cipher for the series, her ignorance and innocence. Its why Esme is saved, as per Kellhus, he kept her ignorant to many things to protect and save her. Ignorance and innocence is what is Holy and that is textual fact. I can quote a 100 quotes to back this up. But, a close reading of the book provides these answers..and I've quoted it more than enough times prior to TUC. And, Kellhus confirms this to Esme in Chapter 1. So we know.

[MSJ]

Sorry, I can only modify short poats, so sorry for double posts. Now, I agree that Kellhus could be saved by some future event. Say waging war on the 100 and therefore eliminating Hell and damnation, to an extent. In sure this would make him holy and absolve his sins. If what we see in the dreams is in fact Kellhus's version so to say of the Outside, his domain, it seems like a very serene and peaceful place. So, yea, there is room for him to become holy or even be so.

Again, I'm not saying your theory doesn't have merit, it does. I just have a issue with your wording, I guess. That your saying this is what happened, that Kellhus IS Mimara's baby, your posts seem to claim this as fact. When, I feel many would disagree with that and you have no concrete proof that it is indeed true. Soory, if you feel I am being hostile, I am not. I just think your making declarations, that are in fact only speculations.

[jurble]

To your point on what damns and saves. We know through Koringhus and even Kellhus in TUC, what is Holy. Its textual evidence. I have linked quotes multiple times across many threads on this forum. Ignorance, and innocence are the most Holy attributes on Earwa. Its why Sërwe is a cipher for the series, her ignorance and innocence. Its why Esme is saved, as per Kellhus, he kept her ignorant to many things to protect and save her. Ignorance and innocence is what is Holy and that is textual fact. I can quote a 100 quotes to back this up. But, a close reading of the book provides these answers..and I've quoted it more than enough times prior to TUC. And, Kellhus confirms this to Esme in Chapter 1. So we know.

And yet Kellhus tells us Serwe burns in Hell.  You're using Kellhus as direct evidence for ignorance-as-holy, yet ignoring him on another.

[Wilshire]

Its nice that this is your view and really I am intrigued. But, it by no means is concrete fact that Mimara's baby is Kellhus. Ill concede the tapestry and timeline roughly fit. But, nothing in the text makes it cannon. So slow down there Jurble. At this point, and for a long while I suspect, its pure theorizing. And that's fine, we so a lot of that around here.

Why such hostility?  I'm laying out a theory.  Should I modify my sentences with "maybe, perhaps" or other such nonsense adverbs instead of stating my arguments with simple linking verbs?   You know that's what they explicitly teach not to do in university when making arguments.

Alright lets do this, since it appears we have a teachable moment.

You both need to work on people skills . I doubt either of you intended to be inflammatory, but that doesn't mean you weren't, nor does it excuse you. Giving someone a generous reading is a choice, and so is being offended, hurt, and put off. We try to keep things amicable here, so lets tone it down a bit (most of your interaction has been fine, but just be aware please).

Probably noteworthy that relationship councilors in fact encourage the use of said modifiers (this isn't a university, but a community, after all). Why? It helps people communicate without getting emotional. Same reason why TYPING IN ALL CAPS MAKE PEOPLE FEEL LIKE THEY ARE BEING YELLED AT. Sometimes, even though we know better, doing things a certain way does, in fact, have an affect. Its our choice to make things harder or easier.
And no, that doesn't mean every time something is said it needs a modifier.

Thanks guys! 

[EDIT Madness: Spacing.]

[MSJ]

And yet Kellhus tells us Serwe burns in Hell.  You're using Kellhus as direct evidence for ignorance-as-holy, yet ignoring him on another.

My main point on innocence and ignorance as holy comes from many other instances in the books. Sorweel, Koringhus and many other times its mentioned. I think Kellhus was lying to Proyas as a way to break him even more. We know Kellhus lies when needed. Regardless its a constant theme and mentioned numerous times throughout the series. Ignorance and Innocence is Holy.

[MSJ]

Wilshire, totally not being hostile. Jurble, I'll say it again, sorry, wasn't my intent.

ETA: I hold no grudges or hate for anyone. As Wilshire knows I come across cross at times. Something I need to work on. I promise I meant no ill will and hope you accept my apologies Jurble.

[Madness]

Since I can't scroll down when modifying a post (another issue madness and wilshire), I meant prophet, not project.

Are you on your phone, MSJ? Also, can you please take the time to post these and any other issues in the New forum Theme/look/format thread.

Yours is based on circumstantial evidence

As an aside, I don't like this argument because it implies circumstantial evidence is weighed less or should weigh less than direct evidence (confessions and witnesses identifying the suspect), yet direct evidence can be lies.   I mean, irl, the weight the American legal system gives to direct evidence is one of its fatal flaws having led to numerous false convictions over our history. In the text, direct evidence has often been lies.

Either way, I'd appreciate more quoting of the text.

Should he, though?  Because despite Mimara possessing the Judging Eye, we still understand little about what damns and what saves.  Mimara and Esmenet are Saved for some reason, and definitely in the case of the latter, she has committed numerous sins - she has had innocents slaughtered, tortured, burned - yet the only sins Mimara sees are the carnal sins meaning Esmenet committed no sins when acting for Kellhus.  So if anything, whether Kellhus should be damned is an utter mystery, given the weird circumstances that seem to absolve sins.

Mimara never sees Kellhus with the Eye? She sees the No-God or arguably Kelmomas but never Kellhus. As far as I recall - and again, haven't read the canon artifact yet.

Thanks guys! 

[EDIT Madness: Spacing.]

Thanks, #2. I suppose we should remind MG the ALL-CAPS Wracu of that .

Wilshire, totally not being hostile. Jurble, I'll say it again, sorry, wasn't my intent.

ETA: I hold no grudges or hate for anyone. As Wilshire knows I come across cross at times. Something I need to work on. I promise I meant no ill will and hope you accept my apologies Jurble.

You two do interact at Westeros, by the way. jurble is currently going by Ajûrbkli, if I'm not mistaken.

[jurble]

Mimara never sees Kellhus with the Eye? She sees the No-God or arguably Kelmomas but never Kellhus. As far as I recall - and again, haven't read the canon artifact yet.

Yes, Mimara never sees Kellhus (unless Kellhus is her baby).   We were discussing whether Kellhus should be damned or not.  My point was that we still don't know what damns/saves someone, whereas MSJ was arguing that ignorance saves.  I'm currently leaning towards sins only count if actually personally committed i.e. ordering murder isn't a sin, given that Esmenet's only sins are her carnal ones.

[MSJ]

You two do interact at Westeros, by the way. jurble is currently going by Ajûrbkli, if I'm not mistaken.

Yea, but does me contesting his views mean that I am being hostile?

[MSJ]

Yes, Mimara never sees Kellhus (unless Kellhus is her baby).   We were discussing whether Kellhus should be damned or not.  My point was that we still don't know what damns/saves someone, whereas MSJ was arguing that ignorance saves.  I'm currently leaning towards sins only count if actually personally committed i.e. ordering murder isn't a sin, given that Esmenet's only sins are her carnal ones

Take Proyas for example, before the TUC and his transgressions of the Scalded. How manymurders did he commit? Or, how many murders were committed under his command. Mimara killed and she is still holy. So, that line of thinking don't square with me.

[EDIT Madness: Fixed quote tag.]

[Madness]

Mimara never sees Kellhus with the Eye? She sees the No-God or arguably Kelmomas but never Kellhus. As far as I recall - and again, haven't read the canon artifact yet.

Yes, Mimara never sees Kellhus (unless Kellhus is her baby).   We were discussing whether Kellhus should be damned or not.  My point was that we still don't know what damns/saves someone, whereas MSJ was arguing that ignorance saves.  I'm currently leaning towards sins only count if actually personally committed i.e. ordering murder isn't a sin, given that Esmenet's only sins are her carnal ones.

Ah, my mistake.

Kellhus, arguably, should be the most Damned soul? It does seem that Kellhus takes upon himself all sin committed in his name, doesn't it...

I'm more and more curious about these mechanics of Damnation. Perhaps, Inrilatas can tell us something.

You two do interact at Westeros, by the way. jurble is currently going by Ajûrbkli, if I'm not mistaken.

Yea, but does me contesting his views mean that I am being hostile?

I didn't perceive you as being hostile but jurble seemed to think so. Regardless, I yield to Wilshire's post. Everyone take a deep breath and let's all keep civilly discussing this series so near and dear to our hearts and brains.

[Wilshire]

I'm about to make a thread somewhere called "Building Healthy Relationships", and start moving posts to it . Lets not derail the topic any more, though I do appreciate the enthusiasm for bridge building.

[H]

And yet Kellhus tells us Serwe burns in Hell.  You're using Kellhus as direct evidence for ignorance-as-holy, yet ignoring him on another.

It could be the cast that both things are actually true though.

The fact that ignorance can be holy doesn't preclude that all ignorance is holy, or that the holy must be ignorant.  It could be the case that some ignorance is holy and some is just plain-old ignorance.

I think asking ourselves why Serwë is damned (if she really is damned) is probably pretty telling.  All I can really come across would be:

“He’s the God!” she shrieked. “Can’t you see? He’s the God!”

So, what she is damned for is worshiping a false prophet.  Interestingly, I don't know that we could have been too sure of whether or not that would be true pre-TUC, but now I don't think there is much doubt that Kellhus is a false prophet.  He simply is looking to rewrite the rules, sort of.

So, I think it would be plausible that Esmenet is "saved" by having striven against Kellhus, or at least in the end by not really buying into his "act."