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Messages - Francis Buck

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181
Good stuff, reading up on "A Test for Consciousness".

Any background info on these two individuals, out of curiosity?

182
General Earwa / Re: Narrative shifts in perspective
« on: October 28, 2017, 08:34:45 pm »
I don't recall Mimara ever having a first person section, but she is indeed written in present tense.

To be honest, with the exception of Mimara, the WLW, and Kellhus-in-the-Outside, I've become inclined toward the stance that Bakker is simply becoming more experimental (and confidant) in his approach to the narration of the series. The perspective becomes increasingly loose as TUC goes on, and by the final chapters, there are small sequences and paragraphs here and there that are entirely detached from any character, and even from the "thematic voice" of the typical omniscient narration that we are accustomed to, on a level not seen anywhere else in the series thus far. So I'm not sure how much stock to put in the particularities of perspective in the latter parts of TUC. I think, for example, that a lot of the second person stuff during the finale was simply a way for Bakker to really put the reader right there at Golgotterath, witnessing the No-God and the Second Apocalypse firsthand.

Then again, there's also something fishy about, well, everything regarding Moenghus Jr. and Cnaiur's relationship IMO, and the use of second person (which we otherwise have only seen from Kellhus-in-the-Outside and Koringhus's musings) may well be intended to imply some sort of cosmic shenanigans -- but for now my impression is that RSB is just getting very, very comfortable with his style of narration in this series. And really, if there's any point in the series to be experimental and novel with the storytelling, it's in TUC.


183
The Unholy Consult / Re: A certain scene in a pool
« on: October 27, 2017, 04:20:19 pm »
I've wondered whether that was Cnaiur or Moe Jr. dreaming it since the first read through. It definitely seems like a dream sequence to me regardless, and given Cnaiur's "Dunyain are worms" speech it would sorta make sense for him, but it would also make it the lone Cnaiur POV in all of TAE, no?

Weirdly, I would interpret it the same way if it was Cnaiur or his son -- that the Dunyain can act through the people they've conditioned well after their own death, and Moenghus the Dunyain has "infected" the line of Skiotha.

184
General Earwa / Re: Eschaton – The Beginning, Middle, and End of Time
« on: October 27, 2017, 02:28:31 am »
Cool thread idea, good analysis and description. 

This stuff, combined with the notion of the Gods' lacking a true faculty for reason, makes for some very interesting speculative fictional entities, the likes of which I have not seen this side of fantasy fiction (and really not much of in science fiction for that matter).

One thing that's been nagging me somewhat since we've learned what we have of the Gods and Time in the Outside is the nature of the Ciphrang's POV. We've had these since, what, The Thousandfold Thought? (Ciphrang POV's I mean)

Yet they seem to possess a thinking mind that works linearly -- I believe one even mentions the "millions of years" or whatever that measure its existence. Do Ciphrang fundamentally comprehend the Outside differently? Is it a matter of 'power-levels', as it were? Or does the Ciphrang POV simply change because they're "Inside" while we happen to read them, and then revert back to some timeless frame of mind once they've returned?

And what about, for example, the Arch-Ciphrang (Kakalial?) that manages to "involute" itself inside the Ark? Must the Ark itself also stand beyond -- or at least beside -- the time-sphere?   

185
General Misc. / Re: Art
« on: October 24, 2017, 10:34:41 pm »
As one who considers themselves an artist (not that it matters at all for the debate at hand): My go-to opinion on this matter, broadly speaking, is that if the creator of a given work considers it to be a piece of art, then I'm not going to tell them they're wrong. By the same token, I'm also not obliged to consider "good art", as it were.

That being said, I also mostly agree with your idea of what makes art, well, art lol. Or at least GOOD art. In the end, to me, art is just expression combined with the craftsmanship of the artist in their respective medium. 

186
The No-God / Re: Perspective and answers to open questions
« on: October 19, 2017, 07:38:00 pm »
Not sure if it's been brought up, but a further possible indicator that Kellhus = Ajokli is the fact that Ajokli is the "faithless husband" of Gierra, who could align with Esmenent.

I'm not fully in the Kellhus = Ajokli idea, but I think there's a kernel of something there. I personally am further inclined toward Ajokli being "Seswatha", but even that I'm not certain of by any means. I do think that Seswatha is one or more of the God-like entities we know of -- the Meta-God as mentioned in the Last Whelming, or the God of Gods.

187
I was actually kind of ambivalent towards Akka during my first read of PON, and even on my re-read (followed by catching up with the other two released books at the time, TJE and TWLW). I never thought he was a badly written character or anything, but I suppose I felt similarly to what TaoHorror said above. To some extent I still do feel that way -- my favorite characters are definitely the more "take charge" types, or at least "take action" (which is often, but not always, literally taking part in an action sequence).

However, after TGO and the re-reads that followed, and especially after TUC, I can say that my appreciation of the character has grown considerably. I think the reason for this is two-fold: firstly, Akka benefits from re-reads more than perhaps any other character in the series. His wealth of knowledge and general musings (philosophical or otherwise) had a tendency to just sort of wash over me during early read-throughs, but after returning to the text continuously and not having to focus on plot elements as much, the various instances of Akka's self-reflection, his perspective on the other characters, and all of the little side-notes regarding the worldbuilding and such are not only easier to digest, they also become more interesting the more you unravel the mysteries and concepts at play in the series.

It's especially interesting to take Akka's overrall opinion of himself and his place in the world during PON (in which he is basically a very, very heavily armed conspiracy theorist), and then contrast that with the old, crazy Wizard of TAE. In many ways Akka changed the least of all the original cast from the first book onward, but not in a negative way -- it actually makes sense given the entire premise of the Mandate and Seswatha and so on.

In terms of sheer writing, though, I would confidently argue that Achamian and Mimara are wholesale the best-realized characters from across the series (with probably Cnaiur and Kellhus coming in right on their heels). Akka and Mimara's banter, mannerisms, and interactions feel increasingly genuine as TAE progresses, and by TGO/TUC it feels like the author is effortlessly channeling these two very complex human beings.

It's funny as I think of it, but Achamian might be the main character I'm most looking forward to in the next series, if only because he will finally be pretty much the only authority people have to turn to regarding the Apocalypse that is very clearly taking place across all of Earwa. In a way it's like only now can Achamian truly become Seswatha, especially since he has some very personal reasons to hate the Consult. Almost as if everything so far has been in preparation for this section of the story.

188
The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
« on: September 30, 2017, 01:03:22 pm »
All sorcerers walk on the echo of the ground when they fly.  All sorcerers refer back to a person they know at a place they know when they perform the Cants of Calling.  The Cants of Compulsion are Cants of possession, Gnostic and Anagogic both, that force the mind in knew directions and may leave the victim permanently changed.  Both the Gnosis and Anagogic Sorcery use the same terminology and same basic types of defensive sorceries: Wards of Exposure, Wards of Shielding, and Skin Wards.  And so on.  The metaphysical principles involved are the same- it is the mechanisms of manipulation, and the capability of those mechanisms, that differ.

So it is with the Daimos.  It is a type of sorcery, like war cants or wards, or cants of torment but it deals with what most sorcerers shrink from.  The Scarlet Spires did not invent a whole knew kind of sorcery working on different principles when they developed the Daimos.  Instead they applied the Anagogic Sorcery they possessed and understood to the mastering of the Outside.

This is supported not only by logic, but the terminology in the appendix.  The Anagosis, the Gnosis, and the Iswazi are all referred to as "branches" of sorcery.  The Daimos is not only not referred to in such a manner, but is referred to as type of Cant.  The Daimos is not a separate type of sorcery but a rarely studied and even more rarely used set of sorcerous abilities, such are the moral and political repercussions of its use.

Good post, and I agree with all your main points.

While I'm not sure there will ever be a clean-cut, canonized outline of the distinct forms of magic, I personally think it could pretty much be broken into (at most) three distinct forms. The first form consists of "Sorcery Proper" and includes the Gnostic, Anagogic, and Daimotic branches.

I perpetually waver on whether the Psukhe and the use of Water, in general, should be lumped in with the other Sorcerous methodologies. I do not, however, think Cishaurim and their Psukhe are the sole representatives of Water practictioners. At this point I'm inclined to believe that most, if not at all, of the "theurgic" or divine sorceries used by the likes of Psatma and Porsparian are simply a different application of the Water.

The third category would be the Tekne, which I think is probably not just advanced technology -- at the very least, it is clearly technology that carries intrinsic metaphysical consequences. Aporetics are the odd one out since they seemingly function based on semantic roots without necessarily being Sorcery Proper.

Both Aporetics and the Tekne (as well as sorcerous artifacts) bear various similarities to traditional ideas of witchcraft, and historically witchcraft has been called the "Old Religion". The word Tekne is derived from the Greek 'techne' (or craft). Since the Tekne itself is referred to occasionally as the "Old Science", and given that the Tekne, Aporetics, and Sorcerous artifacts are all a type of 'craft' as it were, it doesn't seem too far-fetched to lump them all together.

It also seems possible that the unifying aspect of these various forms of "witchcraft" is the mysterious language of souls, as depicted on the Ekkinu. I would suggest that most sorcerous artifacts are enchanted by inscriptions of the very same metaphysical source code if you will. This could explain why Emilidis's artifacts are unaffected by Chorae, for example.


189
General Earwa / Re: TSA related art and stuff. (VI)
« on: September 18, 2017, 01:57:35 am »
Perhaps a rendition of the tender love affair between Proyas and Sibawul in TUC?

190
The Unholy Consult / Re: Mutilated "Art"
« on: September 17, 2017, 09:05:40 pm »
I imagine the confrontation between Kellhus and the Mutilated will be something that people will be parsing for years to come (not unlike the Kellhus & Moenghus showdown in TTT), so you're far from alone.

That being said, the general thought line regarding the "purpose" of the No-God and the Apocalypse and all that goes with it is to "close the world shut from the Outside", the exact particulars of which are still kind of opaque. Nonetheless, it seems to boil down to those who are Damned seeking to escape Damnation.

As for the "artful" comment, I believe this is simply the Mutilated's way of explaining that the method of achieving the above result (closing the World from the Outside and the Gods and all that) is not a matter of complete and total extinction of mankind, but rather the reaching of a very specific number of deaths (or, alternatively, a specific number of people left living, since there are supposed to be some 144,000 individuals that will survive the Apocalypse).

What happens after that I think is very much open to debate I'm afraid. I personally have numerous pet-theories, but my inclination at this particular moment is that by reducing the population of Earwa to the aforementioned number creates a sort of metaphysical paradigm shift, altering the nature of Damnation, the Outside, the Gods, and so forth.

And indeed, the Dunyain (or at least the Mutilated, who've almost certainly been subjected to the Inverse Fire) share many, shall we say, cultural similarities with the Inchoroi and pretty much everyone involved with the Consult.

Lastly, I do not think the Mutilated have abandoned the Absolute -- rather, to them, the No-God actually IS the Absolute. Whether that's true or not is seemingly open for interpretation both for us readers but also for the in-universe characters themselves. I doubt we'll ever get a conclusive "answer" to this since it's kind of intrinsically unanswerable (which is why we humans in the real world have been -- and still are -- debating this idea since, like, forever).

Hopefully that answers some of your questions! You're asking the big ones, so there are many and variegated possible interpretations.  :)

191
The Unholy Consult / Re: Did The False Sun spoil TUC for you?
« on: August 31, 2017, 08:45:57 pm »
The False Sun didn't spoil or ruin TUC for me personally, however it did sort of telegraph the greater thematic and narrative crux that TUC would make use of (that being the notion of the seemingly all-powerful Ubermensch having the floor fall out beneath him -- figuratively and literally, in TFS's case). To be honest though I don't even think that would have stood out if RSB had not mentioned that TFS could be "spoilerly" to begin with.

192
Philosophy & Science / Re: Am I Psychic? App
« on: August 26, 2017, 09:41:20 pm »
The criticism of the app, given that it is based in scientific peer-reviewed research brought me here. And of course I have heard of the GCP work of Dean Radin and Robert Morris.

I'm happy to be here also! I just wanted to clear the air on the app not being based in science. Thank you :)
How specifically did you find us though? I'm interested, seeing as we're a pretty niche community (and only happen to be discussing your app and project because I have an eclectic morning roundup).

He's psychic.

193
Amazing thread and posts, gonna have to re-read it a few times though lol. Once we hit TGO, I kinda stopped putting much effort into unraveling the WLW plot-points, in part because I was assuming it would be laid out somewhat coherently in TUC (which was hilariously naive me, in retrospect). Nonetheless, the nature of the Gods and their atemporality has always been fascinating to me and even more-so after TUC, but your assessment of everything is honestly pretty mind blowing and makes a shitload of sense. I keep forgetting that the Gods lack an ability to reason, but as you demonstrated it seems to be pretty important.

I assumed Esmenet was Saved going purely by Mimara's visions of her, but I hadn't considered Sorweel, really. One thing that this sort of dovetails with is a hypothesis I've been going over in my head since TUC:

Esmenet is a mighty Ciphrang. Like Cnaiur, who is a veritable Prince of Hell, so too is Esemenet a "Princess of Heaven", shall we say - and perhaps our only example of the elusive "angelic Ciphrang" which RSB mentioned in an interview years ago.

I was actually going to start a thread on this anyway and I don't want to de-rail this one, but you can see my thoughts on it here: http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2403.0

194
The Unholy Consult / [TUC Spoilers] Esmenet the Angelic Ciphrang
« on: August 26, 2017, 04:13:20 am »
Been meaning to make this thread for a while now, but I was motivated to do so after catching Duskweaver's great thread on a similar topic, but I recommend you all read if you haven't already: http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2402.0


I'll keep my hypothesis short and sweet...

Esmenet is a mighty Ciphrang. Like Cnaiur, who is a veritable Prince of Hell, so too is Esemenet a "Princess of Heaven", shall we say - and perhaps our only example of the elusive "angelic Ciphrang" which RSB mentioned in an interview years ago.

Consider:

-Mimara's JE can not only see the morality of a person but also their destiny and fate in the Outside.

-It's also capable of distinguishing between someone is merely damned (or saved), and someone who is actually one of the entities dishing out the damnation (or salvation).

-Note that when Mimara sees the Scalpers, or almost anyone that's damned up until TGO/TUC, she sees their souls being passed between demons in Hell and so forth.

-In contrast, when Mimara sees Cnaiur, and later the Ordealsmen at Golgotterath, she sees them as the demons, rather than one simply being fed upon by them. This is especially true in Cnaiur's case, who's not merely a Ciphrang but a so-called Prince of Hell, and again from an AMA/Q&A with the author, we know that certain people's souls are so strong they begin to "turn" early...perhaps when they're closer to their own death?

-As we also know, the Outside and all of its inhabitants exist atemporally. People don't so much become a Ciphrang, but rather some people always were a Ciphrang.

-This could also explain some of Cnaiur -- and now perhaps Esmenet's -- more extraordinary qualities. For example, Cnaiur's in his mid 60's by TUC, yet he's physically just as powerful as he always was, perhaps even more powerful, and in addition, he seems to have not aged almost whatsoever.

Compare with Esmenet, who should be in her fifties, yet is consistently described as being just as beautiful and healthy as she was 20 years ago. There's even a sequence in TGO where Esmenet actually sort of freaks out about it and wonders what kind of "abomination" would be so unnatural. It's even more poignant when you remember how the last Empress of the Three-Seas, Istriya, also had rather unnatural beauty for her age by the end, because she actually was was an abomination who had been replaced by a skin-spy.

Finally, it seems fitting that out of the original cast of series, we get two of them who end up on opposite ends of the moral and cosmic spectrum...

ETA: Thanks to Madness for grabbing this quote from the author:

Since only demonic (as opposed to angelic) Ciphrang can be summoned and trapped in the World, practitioners of the Daimos can never trust the reports they receive: the so-called Damnation Archives in the Scarlet Spires are rumoured to be filled with wild contradictions. The Damned themselves only know that they are damned, and never why.

195
The Unholy Consult / Re: TUC Jason Deem artwork (possible spoilers...?)
« on: August 26, 2017, 03:13:36 am »
Dunno how I missed them until now but holy shit these are AMAZING. They perfectly capture my envisioning of Golgotterath in terms of mood, etc. Possibly the best and most evocative covers for the series I've seen thus far. Great work as always from Somnambulist.

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