The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Great Ordeal => Topic started by: Madness on July 13, 2016, 08:28:57 pm
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First post of ARC thread (you can click the quote tag to get to the past thread):
The Fanim appear outside Momemn as Esmenet reconciles with Maithanet only as he is murdered by the White-Luck Warrior...
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Some one help me understand the scene where the WLW dies. Specifically what Esmi was supposed to have done.
"What have you done?"
She winced at blows that did not come. She clawed at his wool leggings, hooked fingers into the rim of his right boot.
"I..." she began on the urge to vomit.
Let it... a seditious fragment whispered.
"I-I..."
Happen.
Mother stamps her foot upon the earth.
All life stumbles. The ceilings unhitch and come shrugging down.
His sword swirls broken through curtains of debris.
The tear wells in Mother's eye. The ground hammers all things terrestrial as a mallet.
The Demon dances clear the ceilings, miraculously stands to regard his teetering wife.
"Esmi?"
His broken sword pitches, end over end, following a miraculous chute through the curtains of debris.
Mother blinks the tear. The vast ceiling slumps, then crashes, fragments of marmoreal splendour.
"Catch," the Empress calls.
Where did the Tear of God come from? Did Esmi try to throw a Chorae at Kellhus? Was that her seditious thought? I have my own idea with what happened but I'd like to know how others read this.
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her crime seems to be she "let it happen" whatever "it" is, is up for speculation. Wee Kel running about wild killing everyone without her realising? She was deliberately letting the empire fall? Not sure.
Chorae might have been embedded in the ceiling.
She throws a peach to him earlier and says catch. While Kel is spying i think. So might need to go back and re-read as might be connected.
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I figured "letting it happen" was by allowing the WLW to be in the Palace and deliberately following him when she knew she shouldn't.
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Perhaps what she let happen was allow intervention of the Gods, which Kehllus knew would eventually happen. Just as he conditioned Saubon and Proyas (sorry, have the audiobook, forgive my spelling) so too has Kellhus laid the ground work for godly destruction of Momem. Such, he implying to Esmi that he was false, and the Gods were against him, ensuring the Thousand Temples is remade to reflect something true.
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Esme has a connection with Yatwer. There's no way of her fragment knowing what 'it' is otherwise. Whether Yatwer produces the tear directly or causes Esme to throw one doesn't really matter, Esme is a conduit for the Mother's will at this point.
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Someone pointed out the Choare might have come from the ceiling that was designed to stop sorcery on it or something. If I am remembering correctly that is.
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I'm on my first listen-thru on the audio book. The first amazing thing I heard was Meppa changed his face. Esmi for a second thing he is a skin spy before the water hits.
This has huge implications, because that means the cisharim could change their faces this whole time and would explain why the Consult wanted them destroy by the first holy war.
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I'm on my first listen-thru on the audio book. The first amazing thing I heard was Meppa changed his face. Esmi for a second thing he is a skin spy before the water hits.
This has huge implications, because that means the cisharim could change their faces this whole time and would explain why the Consult wanted them destroy by the first holy war.
I figure this just reflects the Cishaurim equivalent of a Glamour? Though, that doesn't contradict your point, actually reinforces it. Cishaurim could use Glamours without Mark unlike other Sorcerers.
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I'm on my first listen-thru on the audio book. The first amazing thing I heard was Meppa changed his face. Esmi for a second thing he is a skin spy before the water hits.
This has huge implications, because that means the cisharim could change their faces this whole time and would explain why the Consult wanted them destroy by the first holy war.
I figure this just reflects the Cishaurim equivalent of a Glamour? Though, that doesn't contradict your point, actually reinforces it. Cishaurim could use Glamours without Mark unlike other Sorcerers.
Well isn't this the exact same thing that Mallahet (Moe) used when they had the meeting with Xerius in TDTCB?
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Kinda but moe's version was like a hologram over his face. Something that was obviously not his face. But what Meppa did was a full disguise, Esmi thought she was talking to faynal the whole time.
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Huh. I have t re-read it. I thought Meppa was dressed to look like Fayanal and had the hologram over his face, like in TDCTB.
And Anasûrimbor Esmenet found herself staring at a face that was no longer the Padirajah’s … but had become, rather, the face of someone altogether different, someone whose chin, cheeks, and scalp had been shaven— and who inexplicably wore a band of graven silver over his eyes.
The only thing that changes is his face, just like the meeting with Xerius. Same trick, me thinks.
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At no point before the face changes does she mentioned that she was not talking to faynal. She thinks she is talking to Faynal the. The face changes. Back in Tdtcbf meeting with Xerius the hologram used didn't look like flesh. It was like a hologram, moe's face was under and at all time visible.
But what Meppa did was on a skin spy level of disguise.
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The only thing that I can think of to reconcile the two events is that they know in Moe's case because he came first as Mallahet and then announced that he was there so that Xerius could parlay with another and then Skaurus' face appears over Moe's. But I'm inclined to agree that there was more of a difference because I recall it being described with a holographic image; not a straight glamour/disguise. The Meppa move seemed to be the latter without any trace of the hologram.
I don't think it's completely safe to assume that the Cishaurim en masse could all pull this move off. I think it's implied while perhaps not proven that Meppa is more powerful than your typical Primary, even.
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I don't think it's completely safe to assume that the Cishaurim en masse could all pull this move off. I think it's implied while perhaps not proven that Meppa is more powerful than your typical Primary, even.
+1.
As far as I recall, Esmenet thinks that Meppa's a Primary, which by itself was enough to terrify her given that at Shimeh this was the unfortunate conclusion to Eleazaras' long gambit: the Cishaurim Primaries are more powerful than the Anagogics.
EDIT: And ironically, Kellhus' Translocation trick at Shimeh aside, the Last Cishaurim proved almost capable of defeating the Metagnosis - had Malowebi intervened.
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I don't think it was that close, Kellhus disabled Meppa easy mode one spell, we only have Malowebi thinking it was his chance to be the difference maker. Kellhus was almost pissing about, dropping Psatma,making shitty jokes, teleporting inside Malowebi's wards ,all he needed to do was drop his ward and they'd both wash away, he doesn't same with not adding his song to Meppa. Then Kellhus teleports outside takes out Meppa one shot.
He's probably just arrived (the allotted time) after skimming horizon to horizon from Dalgliash to Momenn.
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The Primaries were weaker than Anagogic Sorcerers of Rank. At Shimeh they concealed their presence until the Scarlet Spires had tired themselves out blasting their way into ambush point and then attacked, surrounding the poorly positioned and tired Scarlet Schoolmen. Elizearas himself holds off two of their most powerful primaries for a while despite tiring his school out and leading them into a killing field. Shimeh proved not that the Primaries are stronger than Sorcerers of Ranks, but that the difference in strength is far less important than tactics.
As for disguise magic, the Cishaurim were able to enter the Scarlet Spires by stealth and a witch was able to masquerade as a priestess of Yawter. It clearly exists, with the Cishaurim having the advantage of not having the mark which was why everyone thought the skin spies were theirs.
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Then Kellhus teleports outside takes out Meppa one shot.
Well... we can quibble, of course :). But I read it as Kellhus having to withstand Meppa's outpouring of Water for a whole page in order to complete some unfathomably complex Metagnostic Cant in order to disable the Last Cishaurim.
The Primaries were weaker than Anagogic Sorcerers of Rank. At Shimeh they concealed their presence until the Scarlet Spires had tired themselves out blasting their way into ambush point and then attacked, surrounding the poorly positioned and tired Scarlet Schoolmen. Elizearas himself holds off two of their most powerful primaries for a while despite tiring his school out and leading them into a killing field. Shimeh proved not that the Primaries are stronger than Sorcerers of Ranks, but that the difference in strength is far less important than tactics.
CC, wow. Welcome back 8)! It's been so long since I've seen your name kicking about a Bakker forum.
The Scarlet Spires knew of the Nine Incandati, those Primaries whose backs could bear the most Water, but they had no inkling as to their true strength. Now the greatest of the Psukari assailed them: Seokti, Inkorot, Hab'hara, Fanfarokar, Sartmandri... And they could not cope.
Followed by a page of the Anagogic Sorcerers-of-Rank getting their asses handed to them until the Men of the Tusk come save them with Chorae.
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There is that moment where Eleazaras holds his own against Seokti and another Primary which is no small feat, but the rest of it reads like the SS being overwhelmed by the Primaries.
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My favourite sport is combat sports, basically duels.
So many variables go into fighting that you're really only the "better fighter" on the night. Also styles make fights as well, some people just have bogeymen they can't beat, but can destroy everyone else.
"cardio" is king as well as soon as you're tired you make mistakes and many a time a less skilled fighter has just survived till the other person gets tired then slowly the momentum changes.
Basically it's hard for me to say for certain one technique is better than the other because it isn't like they go into 8 week camps and practice then come out and duel.
Obviously some advantages like the Gnosis may prove insurmountable, but i wouldn't say what we've seen is a good indication as the conditions were not the same for each participant.
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There is that moment where Eleazaras holds his own against Seokti and another Primary which is no small feat, but the rest of it reads like the SS being overwhelmed by the Primaries.
Sorry, Trisk - as far as my posts go, you know half of them end up being citations. But you mean, this moment on the next page:
Eleazaras had been very near the Cishaurim's surprise descent. Beset by Fanfarokar and Seokti, the High Heresiarch himself, he too could do no more than sing Ward after Ward.
Or later on p479 where Eleazaras, having chased Seokti and the other Cishaurim who have fled the Men of the Tusk and their Chorae, unloads absolutely every staple of the Anagogic Spires onto Seokti before the High Heresiarch just brushes it off and helps his respite finish Eleazaras off?
EDIT: There's also this thread from the Bakker's recent Author Q&A (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1812.0), which serves to muddy the waters, as per usual ;).
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Another point to consider is Kellhus v Primaries. My recollection is that he's nearly beaten blow-to-blow, and leans very heavily on Metagnostic teleportation to win. I'm away from book right now, so I might be misremembering. Also, he's pretty new to the Metagnosis at that point, so it's not perfect.
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Now it's not around me either, Cosi, but I think that Proyas watches Kellhus first try sorcery but then the Cishaurim attack with the Psuhke before Kellhus Translocates and just cuts them down with Enshoiya.
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Thank you Madness. Good to see you as well.
The things to remember:
1) The Scarlet Spires had already wasted their strength blasting into Shimeh while the Fanim conserved theirs. It's bad enough that one of the senior magi begs Eli to stop and he laughs it off and continues to push. I'm going to repeat that because it's important: the Scarlet Spires continues to push after one of their senior magi warns their leader that they are squandering their strength and this is before they fight a single Cishaurum. The Scarlet Spires throw away one of their only advantages before the fight even begins.
2) The Cishaurim don't just ambush them. The encircle them and unleash their Chorae archers as well. Envelopement is pretty damned deadly and the Spires shield men can provide only limited protection. The Scarlet Spires tire themselves out in the process of walking into a trap where a fresh enemy waits to spring upon them and Chorae archers can attack on all sides. It isn't strength that wins this fight for the Cishaurum (although they clearly have a fair amount of that as well), it's tactics.
3) It's not an impressive display of strength to overwhelm exhausted men. Despite this, Eli is able to hold off two of the greatest Primaries and some of the Scarlet Spires survive long enough for the Men of the Tusk arrive and provide some aid.
4) Despite having wasted his strength, despite having two of the strongest Primaries gang up on him, Eli is able to fight on until finally the strongest of Cishaurum overcomes him. You're not proving yourself stronger than a guy you don't fight until he's tired, gang up on, and then manage to beat when your buddy who was helping you drops out of the fight. You are, however, stacking the deck in your favor.
5) No one is saying the greatest Primaries aren't really powerful or greater than many Anagogic Schoolmen, but nothing indicates that the Cishaurum as a whole are more powerful. If they were there is no way Eli could hold out against two of the greatest Primaries after wasting so much of his strength and he's not only able to hold out, but to counter attack and fight on against their strongest when he's given a little respite by having one of those Primaries who is beating the shit out of his wards fall. Eli's feat of endurance is exhausting in of itself. When I was first reading the Thousandfold Thought I was thinking "Christ, all this and they still haven't managed to kill him. Is he somehow going to live through this shit because this is hardcore?" And just when I think he might actually Rasputin his way through his fuck up (and it's a colossal fuck up, he leads his entire School into a meatgrinder) he finally is beaten down and dies.
There's also the small matter of having seen powerful sorcerers swiftly overwhelm weaker rivals and hold out against superior numbers of weaker enemies and Eli's performance is consistent with great strength. It takes a long time for him to fall and a lot of hammering just as it takes a massive beatdown to overwhelm Akka. The mercenary mage, on the other hand, doesn't last long against Eli. That does show there's a fairly significant variation in strength between Sorcerers of Rank, consistent with having the strongest Primaries being able to outmatch many Anagogic Sorcerers one on one, but it's also shows just how strong Eli by being able to hold out against two Primaries even after squandering so much power.
5) Kelhus choses a highly mobile strategy to fight the last remaining Primaries and their supporting Chorae archers. His ability to teleport and his lethalness in close quarters is an advantage only he possesses. If he allows them to concentrate against him they might kill him. If, on the other hand, he's teleporting around he's a hard target to concentrate against and he can attack his opponents by surprise. His telekinetic rubble shield also helps protect him from Chorae archers but why would he do them of the favor of staying still and lining up shots?
This is another example of Kelhus's intellect allowing him to make full use of his abilities.
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Also Kellhus won't have had the time to mine the metagnosis as he has in TGO> He even reflects until he got the 3 seas under he never really got time to ponder the "maddening abstracting" of the Daimos,metagnosis and TTT.
I've seen so many fights (boxing/grappling/mma/kickboxing) where one person is winning till they get tired then it just falls apart.
Onscreen Kellhus i believe kills on with a cant, throws a chorae at one, and beheads two after teleporting behind them. Just seems his usual effective way.
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Yea I felt like Kellhus wasn't having trouble with Meppa, he was just very interested in the ward that Malowebi was using. And, I think that whatever "magic" the Zuemi use will be of some use to Kellhus in some way. He was really, really interested in that shit.
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The Zeumi seem to be the only power in the modern era that's still creating magic items. Scarlet Spires, Mandate, Cisharum, and all the other Three Seas schools seem to rely mostly on raw sorcerous power to do stuff. Malowebi on the other hand seems to have a bunch of magical trinkets for various purposes, and his school is described (IIRC) as a "Fetishistic Anagogic School". Kellhus may have interest in looking at their notes, or perhaps he wants something specific they have squirreled away. Perhaps related to Titirga's Day Latern (which seems too important not to come up again).
Does someone have a summary of what we know about magic items? Particularly, I recall that a lot of them are of Nonman origin. Were any significant number made by Men?
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Thank you Madness. Good to see you as well.
The things to remember:
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Great post, CC. Granted. I yield to strategy vs. rote power being important :).
Does someone have a summary of what we know about magic items? Particularly, I recall that a lot of them are of Nonman origin. Were any significant number made by Men?
From another thread, Cosi, feel free to resurrect the linked threads and add to them :):
It still can be, but I feel like NG's presence is unique to Earwa and its sorcery. Soul sorcery produces the weirdest toys from what we've seen so it would fit in my mind.
Weapons of Animata (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=979.0) as distinguished from Sorcerous Artifacts (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1185.0).
We didn't get very far in either thread as I remember.
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Any thoughts on why Kellhus went back to Momemn at all? He admits in an Aorsi chapter that the whole empire is expendable and yet he seems to be conditioning Proyas just so he can leave the GO for awhile. Like Kellhus was just waiting for the moment when the GO wasn't in immediate danger so he could rush home to see if he left the oven on.
As far as Meppa putting up a good fight against Kellhus, that might be a matter of POV. Malowebi's wishful thinking might make it seem to him like Meppa was close to overcoming Kellhus, but feigning weakness is just another ploy for a Dunyain.
I think when Kellhus asks Esmi what she has done--it's about Esmi's grudge against Kellhus. She thinks that the gods have killed her kids because of their hate for Kellhus and then she deliberately keeps the narindar that killed Kellhus' brother. I think Kellhus saw in her face that she wants to kill him.
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Any thoughts on why Kellhus went back to Momemn at all? He admits in an Aorsi chapter that the whole empire is expendable and yet he seems to be conditioning Proyas just so he can leave the GO for awhile. Like Kellhus was just waiting for the moment when the GO wasn't in immediate danger so he could rush home to see if he left the oven on.
As mentioned before, there's an argument to be made that he came back to diffuse the threat of the Warrior, take out Psatma and Fanayal, capture Meppa for his own nefarious purposes, condition Ciphrang-Malowebi, and... you know, if you admit that he cares now... not be a dick about letting Esmenet, Maithanet, Inrilatas, Thelli, and Kelmomas all die ;).
I think when Kellhus asks Esmi what she has done--it's about Esmi's grudge against Kellhus. She thinks that the gods have killed her kids because of their hate for Kellhus and then she deliberately keeps the narindar that killed Kellhus' brother. I think Kellhus saw in her face that she wants to kill him.
I think you're onto something here, MG, though Bakker could have been markedly less subtle about that, if accurate.
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I had the thought that he left knowing that things would fall apart under Esmi, and used that as a lure for his enemies. So Fanayal comes out, the Yatwer cult, the Zeumi plotting, they all sense weakness and converge, allowing Kellhus to just make a quick trip back home after transforming Proyas into the leader the Ordeal needs by disillusioning him and sticking it in his butt, not to mention mostly saving the Ordeal from a nuke. He's got his enemies right where he wants them, without having to work so hard or wait around in Momemn.
At just the cost of Maithanet and Thelliopa, both of whom are a-list competent henchpersons. But hey, maybe now Esmi will think he does love her after all.
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I think when Kellhus asks Esmi what she has done--it's about Esmi's grudge against Kellhus. She thinks that the gods have killed her kids because of their hate for Kellhus and then she deliberately keeps the narindar that killed Kellhus' brother. I think Kellhus saw in her face that she wants to kill him.
I think you're onto something here, MG, though Bakker could have been markedly less subtle about that, if accurate.
I think Mg is right on track. And, Kellhus would've been killed if not for Kelmommas.
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I think Mg is right on track. And, Kellhus would've been killed if not for Kelmommas.
Oh yeah, that was something else I wanted to touch on. It really does look like the White Luck was going to get Kellhus there. Kell was not, apparently, too smart or too powerful or two steps ahead. It sure looks like Kelmomas accidentally saved him. So how is it that little K, Special K, is able to thwart Yatwer and the White Luck? Ajokli--one god's influence against another's? There are definitely things up in the air when it comes to that little psychopath...
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Oh yeah, that was something else I wanted to touch on. It really does look like the White Luck was going to get Kellhus there. Kell was not, apparently, too smart or too powerful or two steps ahead. It sure looks like Kelmomas accidentally saved him. So how is it that little K, Special K, is able to thwart Yatwer and the White Luck? Ajokli--one god's influence against another's? There are definitely things up in the air when it comes to that little psychopath...
I know that we're touching on this conversation in multiple threads: to reiterate my own thoughts, Ajokli's Unerring Grace trumps the White-Luck of the other Gods.
What I think is important and has only been obliquely touched on so far in discussion is that our very first POV of Kelmomas is after his Whelming ceremony and the first thing he does is have that beetle moment in the Ajokli Godhouse.
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Why did he come back? Well if he cares the answer is easy. And if he genuinely wants the Ordeal to succeed. Just taking everything at face value he knows little about Golgotterath's capabilities. The nuke proves that he can not afford to bet everything on this one shot. So the empire still has value. And he jumps on the opportunity since he cares. That would be the reason that it's a good thing that not everyone can be saved.
Of course an alternative is that he went home to "burn the fields".
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It may be that Kellhus still thinks that the empire is expendable, but is keeping all of his options open. The nuke at Dagliash, maybe made him think about the necessity of raising more Great Ordeals in the future. It's take the Great Ordeal less than 1 year to reach Golgotterath right? Maybe Kellhus plans to gather another force and send it north right after the upcoming winter. The Great Ordeal gets reinforcements after fighting in the wastes.
Remember that part about how the nonsorcerers were just the vehicle for the schools? LOL! Now the common soldiers are going to be the schools' larders.
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Oh yeah, that was something else I wanted to touch on. It really does look like the White Luck was going to get Kellhus there. Kel
What I think is important and has only been obliquely touched on so far in discussion is that our very first POV of Kelmomas is after his Whelming ceremony and the first thing he does is have that beetle moment in the Ajokli Godhouse.
I think you're wrong here Madness. Kel/Ajokli/Beetle scene was while Kelmommas was waiting to go to his Whelming. Which would have implications in itself. If during the Whelming, Kellhus can see all that moves through Kel's soul, then he would know of the link between Kel and Ajokli.
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I think when Kellhus asks Esmi what she has done--it's about Esmi's grudge against Kellhus. She thinks that the gods have killed her kids because of their hate for Kellhus and then she deliberately keeps the narindar that killed Kellhus' brother. I think Kellhus saw in her face that she wants to kill him.
I think you're onto something here, MG, though Bakker could have been markedly less subtle about that, if accurate.
I think Mg is right on track. And, Kellhus would've been killed if not for Kelmommas.
I read "let it happen" from Esmi as an entreaty to let the White Luck Warrior kill Kellhus, since she knew both were present. The loss of Thelli and the symbolic loss of Kel being the final straws.
Stop me if this has cropped up on another thread, but did anyone notice how the scene the WLW envisions for Kellhus' death changes between books? In WLW (the book), the Warrior envisions clashing swords with Kellhus, the notch in the former's blade causing the blade to shatter against Enshoiya and allowing the Warrior to slip past Kellhus's defense. But in this book, it's the already-broken sword (when did that happen?) being hurled across the room as Kellhus is distracted by his wife trying to kill him.
Seems like too big a change to be a continuity error, which suggests that the "set" future the WLW has "always" envisioned is either not so set after all, or that Kelmomas had already been inadvertantly changing details.
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I'm on my first listen-thru on the audio book. The first amazing thing I heard was Meppa changed his face. Esmi for a second thing he is a skin spy before the water hits.
This has huge implications, because that means the cisharim could change their faces this whole time and would explain why the Consult wanted them destroy by the first holy war.
I've only read the books once, over five years ago (TGO aside), but I think the reason the Consult wanted to destroy the Cishaurim was explained. Moenghus was the first person able to identify skin spies. When he began unmasking them, the Consult, ignorant of the existence of the Dunyain, assumed that it was the Cishaurim who had the power to see through them. That's why they wanted to destroy them.
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I think Meppa just did what Moenghus/Mallahet did in the first book. The face and voice was actually Fanayal being projected over him.
And I don't think Ajokli is the reason for Issiral's failure. The White-Luck-Warrior functions by being both inside and outside reality simultaneously. Samarmas meanwhile is...elsewhere. And Samarmas is the one that tells Kelmomas to cry out.
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Thanks for activating my account. I've been a fan since shortly after the release of TDTCB, but never got around to this place :)
Maybe it's just me, but did anyone else notice the first Decapitant was "activated" (for lack of a better word) very short after Saubon dies at Dagliash, and this might be the Daimotic aspect of the Exalt-General who had no issue with slaughtering thousands? We know he's damned from the last entries when he dies.
Based on all the "preparation" we see from Kellhus in the Aörsi/Dagliash chapters, and we know everything Kellhus does is calculated, I somehow expect the other Exalt-General to become the second one.
Also I remember an Anagogic spell "Meppa's Cataract" being mentioned somewhere during my recent re-read-through of the whole series. Does anyone remember what and where? I was reminded of that when Meppa unleashes the power of the Nile Psukhe on Kellhus/Malowebi.
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Meppa Cataract was mentioned in TTT, during the battle of Shimeh.
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Yes it's a Scarlet Spires spell and it killed Meppa'sfamily according to him.He took his name from that spell afterwards.
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Now the question is if Cishaurim are normally allowed to have families. It's certainly different from other schools, but that would be far from the only difference.
Further...Meppa seems to have an unprecedented level of power. Even Kellhus expressed surprise. Is this the result of the raw depths of his grief and hatred, or something else?
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Now the question is if Cishaurim are normally allowed to have families. It's certainly different from other schools, but that would be far from the only difference.
Further...Meppa seems to have an unprecedented level of power. Even Kellhus expressed surprise. Is this the result of the raw depths of his grief and hatred, or something else?
We don't know that much about Meppa, as far as I can remember, but Esmenet seems to recognise him as a Primary and he is mentioned as such later on, which would put him at a considerable strength, even though Kellhus decimated the whole upper echelon of the Cishaurim at the Battle of Shimeh by himself.
The fact that Kellhus simply jumped into Malowebi's wards, suggests there is no surprise at Meppa's (Mark-less) surprise assault.
I'm not sure but I get the impression the surprise "Such Power..."(p. 447) by Kellhus is directed at the ease and power of Malowebi's warding Muzzu Chalice, rather than the demonstration of the Psukhe: The realization that Zeüm is a threat to be contained, rather than to be left in peace.
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The phrase "Such Power" is directed at Meppa. Malowebi's hasn't matched his power against anyone at this point, merely defended himself, while Kellhus has been struck directly by Meppa's wrath. Meppa is described in the text as "the last and the most brilliant expression of Psukhe". He's literally the most powerful Cishaurim ever to live. Given that passion is linked to how much Water can be born, yes Meppa's rage and grief are part of the reason he's so damn strong.
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Meppa has to be a survivor of the nine Incandati(sp) the most powerful of the Cishaurim Primaries.I guess we will find out in TUC since he is not dead yet...
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Yeah I agree with Cynical Cat. Especially since Malowebi had a moment where he apparently realized that all he had to do was add his voice to Meppa's and Kellhus would finally be over-matched. His indecision leads to his..."death"?
I thought all the Incandati were confirmed dead? If so, perhaps Meppa didn't used to be a primary (or at the least was a less powerful one), and the death of his family propelled him to new heights?
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Yeah I agree with Cynical Cat. Especially since Malowebi had a moment where he apparently realized that all he had to do was add his voice to Meppa's and Kellhus would finally be over-matched. His indecision leads to his..."death"
I suppose that's true, but I'm not entirely convinced. Rather than hide within the wards of a hesitating combatant, he could easily have teleported right behind Meppa instead and blasted him into hell. Instead, he pops into the Chalice and knocks down Malowebi and inspects the wards now receiving the full force of Meppa's assault:
It was as if the sun itself crashed upon the Muzzû Chalice. Malowebi could hear nothing, but through the black gauze of his omba he could see him standing, Anasûrimbor Kellhus, more curious than alarmed, craning his head about to inspect the Ward that preserved him.
This is why I think the surprise is not so much directed at Meppa, but at the power of Malowebi's Zeümi (supposedly) Anagogic wards.
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Seven Incandati were killed on screen,five by Kellhus one by Proyas and one by Yalgrota.It is possible that one of the last two survived somehow but Meppa could indeed be someone different.Kellhus is impressed with his power and he killed five of the most powerfull alone....What I don't get is why Fanayal told Malowebi that Meppa doesn't remember who he is while he very clearly remembers the murder of his family.....
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The only thing I could think of is that Meppa lied to Fanayal for some reason, although why that would matter I don't know.
Unless, and I am clearly indulging my bias here, Meppa wanted Fanayal and everyone to believe that he really was sent by the Solitary God, not simply on a path of vengeance, with no real mission from the God at all.
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What Meppa tells Fanayal and what Meppa screams at the man he hates the most in the universe can be two different things. He also might not have been lying. He's clearly traumatized. He might not really remember much of his life before his family was killed. He's on his way to being an Erratic without being a Nonman.
Kellhous isn't fighting this fight for the quick win. He's got it in the bag because as powerful as Meppa is Kellhous is the greatest Metagnostic Sorcerer alive. He's methodically examining his foes and then dispatching them as he sees fit. Even Meppa, for all his power, crumples the moment the Metagnosis is unleashed against him.
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Well, I'll agree the Kellhus is almost never in any actual danger and is most probably simply toying with, and studying, both Meppa and Malowebi. While Malowebi thinks he sees a moment where he could overwhelm Kellhus' wards in concert with Meppa (and maybe he actually could), I really doubt that they could actually kill, or even harm him. What would stop him from noticing the wards beginning crumble and simply teleporting away?
Kellhus is pretty much undefeatable in any "conventional" way since he can simply be anywhere at any time. He would have to be so overwhelmed in an instant that could both destroy his wards completely and deny him the time to teleport. I don't think there is an sorcery that strong.
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I still haven't totally drunken the "Kellhus is invincible " Kool-aid when he's proven fallible in so many other ways.
Seven Incandati were killed on screen,five by Kellhus one by Proyas and one by Yalgrota.It is possible that one of the last two survived somehow but Meppa could indeed be someone different.Kellhus is impressed with his power and he killed five of the most powerfull alone....What I don't get is why Fanayal told Malowebi that Meppa doesn't remember who he is while he very clearly remembers the murder of his family.....
He doesn't say he doesn't remember who he is. He says he doesn't "know" who he is. In the context of him being a gift from the Solitary God.
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I still haven't totally drunken the "Kellhus is invincible " Kool-aid when he's proven fallible in so many other ways.
That's fine, I didn't really mean invincible in total. I just mean that in a toe to toe sorcerers battle, I don't think there is a real way to best him, since he can simply be elsewhere at a moment's notice. This is why I think the Consult hasn't tried to battle him face to face, they seem more intent on trying to ruin his plans. Their trouble is, just like us, it's not real clear to them exactly what those plans are actually.
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I guess you are right,i just assumed he couldn't remember...oh well I guess it doesn't matter since Fanayal is dead.He also believed he was anointed by the Solitary God but he was certainly wrong,just another failed puppet of Yatwer.
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If he has to run a way, does it technically count as a victory in a toe-toe conflict?
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Kellhus is powerful, but sorcery is tiring and chorae are still lethal. It doesn't matter to the Consult if her personally survives the wreck of his army if they can raise the No-God and crush human civilization. Hell, they don't even have to kill him to win. He can be one of the tiny number of survivors and they still win if they can shut the doors to heaven.
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Malowebi thinks twice he is the balance to the contest.
Once when he could let his ward drop and once when he could add a cant to Meppa. I suspect both times he is wrong.
I've read the scene several times now, and I just don't like the overall tone of it. Kellhus laughing, making jokes, porting about , seemingly not taking the shortest path to defeating Meppa and Malowebi, punching the latter in the face but soft enough only to bust his lip. Then finally casting his big metagnostic cant, that disables Meppa in one shot. Takes out Malowebi in one shot.
Seemed like a bit too much posturing for me for their to be actually any real danger.
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Malowebi thinks twice he is the balance to the contest.
Once when he could let his ward drop and once when he could add a cant to Meppa. I suspect both times he is wrong.
I've read the scene several times now, and I just don't like the overall tone of it. Kellhus laughing, making jokes, porting about , seemingly not taking the shortest path to defeating Meppa and Malowebi, punching the latter in the face but soft enough only to bust his lip. Then finally casting his big metagnostic cant, that disables Meppa in one shot. Takes out Malowebi in one shot.
Seemed like a bit too much posturing for me for their to be actually any real danger.
Kellhus was definitely toying with Meppa, yet recognized his power and that it could be a asset. Hence, not killing him. I really think the Chalice that Malowebi used was of great interest to Kellhus also. We will see it used by Kellhus in some manner in TUC. Maybe to protect Proyas or others who do not use traditional sorcery to aid them in some important mission.
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I'm willing to chalk the other stuff up to different interpretations but the chalice thing seems reaching to me. In particular that he'd for some reason go back north after abandoning the ordeal just to teach people a new anagogic curiosity.
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He's playing cat and mouse with Malowebi. He teleports behind him, doesn't attempt to harm in any way, and then says "boy that dude is strong" and teleporting away. He demands Malowebi explain himself when he knows why Malowebi is there. He jokes with him while casually bombing his ward with the Matriarch of the Cult of Yawter. In between all this he tanks the attack of the most powerful Cishaurim known and swats him down with the Metagnosis. What these actions suggest is that Kellhus likes to troll people, not that he's impressed by a particular Anagogic defence that he can circumvent.
It's also worth remembering that several different Anagogic defences of varying power and difficulty to erect are described in the battle of Shimeh in The Thousandfold Thought. The Muzzu Chalice is described as a potent Anagogic ward and I have no doubt that it is, but that's all it is. Compared to a master of the Metagnosis, a potent Anagogic ward is pretty small beer.
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The only one that survives that encounter in any recognizable state is Meppa. So if Kellhus isn't just broken and insane, but acting with a purpose, the whole performance would have to be for Meppa's benefit. Not Malowebi, who seems to now just be Sohorat's rental car.
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Well, I don't see why Kellhus' curiosity into the Psuhke and the Zeumi sorcery can't be genuine. Of course the meta-Gnosis makes all of it look like kids toys, but Bakker has alluded to the fact that the Psuhke is very strong despite being totally unrefined. I think that Kellhus realizes there is real power there though and so is really curious just how powerful that is.
As for Malowebi, I think he is both curious and just playing with him. I think there is plausibility that perhaps he's never actually seen Mbimayu sorcery before though, so it would make sense to see what it's about.
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As for Malowebi, I think he is both curious and just playing with him. I think there is plausibility that perhaps he's never actually seen Mbimayu sorcery before though, so it would make sense to see what it's about.
I do believe that is the case, although it's still strange. In 20 years you'd think he's done some research about all the magic in Eärwa. But I guess all men have their physical limits; Even Dunyain.
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I do believe that is the case, although it's still strange. In 20 years you'd think he's done some research about all the magic in Eärwa. But I guess all men have their physical limits; Even Dunyain.
I'm sure he was already aware of it, but it could well be the first time he saw it in actual practice.
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Maybe Kellhus returns to Momemn in part to make sure that the Consult have used their last nuke? I'm sure he'll be far-calling for updates. If I'm a dunyain, I'm not hanging around--think of all those tunnels under Golgotterath--the Consult could just run one underneath them and BOOM. I bet they do collapse at least some tunnels to try and stop the GO.
If there are any nukes left, Kellhus could set one off inside the Ark, make a husk out of it.
Kellhus returns to Momemn so he can get that nap he's been putting off since he left Ishual.
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Of course the meta-Gnosis makes all of it look like kids toys, but Bakker has alluded to the fact that the Psuhke is very strong despite being totally unrefined.
Where has he done that? It's certainly a capable art, rivaling the more sophisticated Anagogic Sorcery in power but nothing beyond that in the text. Meppa is impressive, but he's described as the most powerful Psuhkari ever. He's not exactly representative. Eleazaras is able to kill three Cishaurim with a single Dragonhead during their assassination mission in the Scarlet Spires. Far more promising is the hints posed by Titirga, that aspects of it can be combined with other schools for enhanced effects.
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Of course the meta-Gnosis makes all of it look like kids toys, but Bakker has alluded to the fact that the Psuhke is very strong despite being totally unrefined.
Where has he done that? It's certainly a capable art, rivaling the more sophisticated Anagogic Sorcery in power but nothing beyond that in the text. Meppa is impressive, but he's described as the most powerful Psuhkari ever. He's not exactly representative. Eleazaras is able to kill three Cishaurim with a single Dragonhead during their assassination mission in the Scarlet Spires. Far more promising is the hints posed by Titirga, that aspects of it can be combined with other schools for enhanced effects.
I could have sworn there was a quote from him somewhere, but it seems I dreamed it. The best I could find was:
The Psukhe turns more on dispositions than on learning, so it makes sense that dispositional savants would attain great power. But the metaphysics are different, so it's really like comparing apples and oranges. The Psukhe possesses a more volatile range.
Otherwise, the Metagnosis, the Gnosis, and the Anagogis is the generally accepted rank.
My guess is that I made that explanation up from disparate information, the fact that the Psukhe is non-cognitive (by Bakker's definition (http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.com/2011/07/r-scott-bakker-interview-part-2.html)) and where the Gnosis' power comes from the formal abstract, like math, the Psukhe relies on the informal abstract, so basically an art (perhaps?). So, in it's way, the Psukhe lacks the mathematical precision of something like the Gnosis. Instead it is a "hammer of impetus" so to speak, a powerful tool, but a far less surgical one than the Gnosis. I think this is what Bakker means by a "more volatile range" in the quote above, that the Gnosis' power comes from mathematical precision, focused and unwavering. The Psukhe runs the spectrum, from possibly more powerful to far less.
In this way, we could see how Meppa could "challenge" Kellhus momentarily, because the wave might crest high and crash down hard, but in the dip, in the draw to precede the next dispensing of Water, there is nearly nothing left. The high is high but the low is low.
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I disagree with your assessment. The Psukhe does not overmatch Anagogic Sorcery, let alone the Gnosis. Both Anagogic and Gnostic Sorcery work through language and meaning, accomplishing changes in reality either through more powerful and direct abstractions or weaker metaphorical tools. The Psuhke does not use language. What the wielder is attempting to accomplish is not set down using the rigid tools of utteral and inutteral phrases to fix meaning but intuitive and emotional projections. The range of power that the Psukhe allows between individual wielders is greater than that allowed by conventional arts. Eleazaras is clearly much more accomplished and powerful than an ordinary sorcerer of rank, but the difference between his power and that of the poor bastard Mysunsai sorcerer he overpowers is not as great as the difference between a Primary and Trinary. Emotional power and intuitive understanding can vary considerably between individuals (hi Moenghus) , just as greater mastery allows greater power with the cants. However, since executing sorcery requires sufficient mastery to understand the cants as well as sing them, there less variation between conventional sorcerous practitioners than there is between wielders of the Psuhke. That's why Eli can fry weak ones three at a time with a single Dragonhead but the Incandanti can burn him.
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I disagree with your assessment. The Psukhe does not overmatch Anagogic Sorcery, let alone the Gnosis.
But I never said it did. I only said it was possibly (at moments) more powerful, on an individual basis. It is possible that Meppa would over-match nearly any Anagogic sorcerer, perhaps even a Grand-Master. Granted, he is an exceptional case, but that's the point, the range of power the Psukhe can wield is much more variable than the Angogis. Now, could Meppa overwhelm Serwa or Saccarees? I don't quite think so, but again, my point is that the formal nature of the Gnosis nets them a more powerful result than the "raw" nature of the Psuhke. What I was attempting to say was that the less formal nature of the Psuhke is both the fount of it's power and the reason why it is often less powerful than the Anagogis and Gnosis.
I would imagine that Titirga was able to somehow successfully merge the two and this is why even without the meta-Gnosis, his power level was beyond any one else.
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in a duel Psukhe and the Anagogic have both overcome each other on screen, so they have some overlaps in ability. It will depend on the wielders relative knowledge base. Plus individual conditions.
I suspect Meppa would best the Primaries we saw in TTT.
Now to indulge myself, taking away the folk with Dunyain blood. As of right now the last person i would want to take on in a magic duel is Akka. Back in TWP Kellhus after weeks studying him thinks about how everyone who knows him thinks him weak, but in actuality he is a lot stronger than anyone can imagine, just some people need experiences to shape them. Well jump forward a couple of decades and Akka is certainly being shaped...
He's also taken on all comers, sometimes rolling straight out of bed to do so. killed Cish while at shimeh years before the book. Wakes up straight into a handicap match with the best of the SS. Escapes torture transitions to seswatha, lays down a beating, takes out a demon too.
Then from post coitus to routing an imperial column and taking out 4 imperial saik , just as he finishes that off in comes an even bigger demon, which he manages to just beat after it carries him for miles, goes back to collect his wife and tell AK he is a fraud.
Various run in with sranc and scalpers over 2 decades. Then out of retirement again for some even bigger challenges. Sranc, Bashrag and chorae. All taken out. Then after being hogtied the length of earwa he is released and walks straight into a fight with the FATHER OF DRAGONS, routs him then his tag team partner betrays him and he has to take down the Nilgiccas, in some say was a rigged match.
Right now he is at the very end of his tether, his child is about to be born, someone is going to get it.
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Meppa is described as the strongest Cishaurim ever and yes, his fury helps fuel his strength. He can certainly overwhelm power Anagogic Sorcerers, we've seen him do it and a Grandmaster is certainly not beyond his ability to confront (bring popcorn but keep your distance and shelter under a Gnostic Ward/have a Chorae folks). Nor is he the only one to demonstrate considerable strength as we saw the Incandanti wreck considerable havoc on the battered ranks of the Scarlet Spires in The Thousandfold Thought. That makes the Psuhke powerful, but it doesn't make it superior in potential power to Anagogic Sorcery let alone a rival to the Gnosis.
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What I wondered about the setup with demon-Malowebi being sent forth by Kellhus is, how will that be relevant? Will we really get chapters of events in Zeüm, in the middle of the siege of Golgotterath? Or will this be a longplay and will we see payoffs in the third series?
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What I wondered about the setup with demon-Malowebi being sent forth by Kellhus is, how will that be relevant? Will we really get chapters of events in Zeüm, in the middle of the siege of Golgotterath? Or will this be a longplay and will we see payoffs in the third series?
My guess off the bat was that Kellhus is setting himself up to appear as a savior to Zeüm. Plausible, but to formulaic, so doubtful.
Killing off the leadership is much in the same vein as what he did in the Three Seas, taking away most of the old leadership to serve in The Great Ordeal. I very much doubt any will return, or at least an exceedingly small number. I think that kind of makes Zeüm sailing to pick them up improbable. It more probably has to do with Zsoronga, perhaps blackmailing them with the fact that he holds the last of their heirs?
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I've just started a reread of the book and wondered:
The Circumfix Throne room is undoubtedly an important location, but I was struck by the similarity of the reunion scenes of Esmenet with Kelmomas (beginning) and Esmenet with Kellhus (end).
Also, the passage from Esmenet's POV shows:
- Her in a sort of hallucination which I found somewhat resembling a trance caused by her panic/fear of maybe not finding Kelmomas again
- The mention of "a fraction " in the POV of a non-Dunyain
Also noteworthy is the extract from the Book of Fane at the start of the chapter, relating to how One became Many (99 or 100?).
Any thoughts?