The Scylvendi and their role.

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« on: June 04, 2013, 04:07:31 pm »
Quote from: Francis Buck
I don't believe that we have had a dedicated topic to my favorite Eärwan culture: those good ole' Scylvendi rascals.

I find their pseudo-nihilistic society to be one of -- if not the most -- interesting one in the series. They're one of the few groups that are neither Inrithi nor Fanim, and they seem to worship the No-God in the form of Lokung. My question is, why? Why did the Scylvendi join up with the No-God in the first place? Did they already worship a being called "Lokung", and then simply attributed those beliefs to the No-God once he came around?

I'm also interested in the swazond. Someone somewhere on these forums postulated that there's more to them than simple ritualistic scarring, and that they do in fact capture the souls of those slain (there was more to the theory than that, but I can remember what; if you're reading this, mystery poster, please re-inform me).

And of course, is Cnaiür truly dead and gone? I'm really split on this, desire-wise. Part of me wants him to come back, bigger and meaner than ever, to rally his kinsmen for whatever massive battle must take place at the end of this whole thing. At the same time, I'm not a big fan of the "fake-out death" trope, so if it did happen, I'd hope it was handled skillfully.

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« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2013, 04:07:38 pm »
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: Francis Buck
I don't believe that we have had a dedicated to topic to my favorite Eärwan culture: those good ole' Scylvendi rascals.
Yep, the Scylvendi are my favorite culture from Bakker's books. A very realistic depiction of savage nomadic plainsmen as well - despite their bizarre nihilistic worship of the No-God, they're far more realistic and believable than, say, the Dothraki in ASOIAF.

(We get a lot of small bits and pieces about Scylvendi culture in the books - they're cattle-herders and basically Dark Ages cowboys, they're a people who stand still in history, they have a language that sounds vaguely Turkic, and so on).

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I find their pseudo-nihilistic society to be one of -- if not the most -- interesting one in the series. They're one of the few groups that are neither Inrithi nor Fanim, and they seem to worship the No-God in the form of Lokung. My question is, why? Why did the Scylvendi join up with the No-God in the first place? Did they already worship a being called "Lokung", and then simply attributed those beliefs to the No-God once he came around?
Cnaiur states that the Scylvendi used to worship the Tusk like all other humans, before the No-God appeared. It's still an interesting question, why they enthusiastically joined up with the No-God - it just goes against human nature to support the extinction of your own species.

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« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2013, 04:07:45 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
Consult introduced their chief to the inverse fire mebe?

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« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2013, 04:08:04 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: Auriga
Cnaiur states that the Scylvendi used to worship the Tusk like all other humans, before the No-God appeared. It's still an interesting question, why they enthusiastically joined up with the No-God - it just goes against human nature to support the extinction of your own species.
My theory is the consult gave them the theory of swazond, and this helped them trap souls inward and allowed them to continue birthing babies.  Since they aren't civilized none of the three seas would ever ask, care or investigate if the Scylvendie also experienced the womb plague.

It's also possible that when Scott says 'whole nations will be wrong' because they're the wrong religion he means everyone but the scylvendie, and they've had it right.

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« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2013, 04:08:11 pm »
Quote from: Francis Buck
Quote from: lockesnow
My theory is the consult gave them the theory of swazond, and this helped them trap souls inward and allowed them to continue birthing babies.  Since they aren't civilized none of the three seas would ever ask, care or investigate if the Scylvendie also experienced the womb plague.

It's also possible that when Scott says 'whole nations will be wrong' because they're the wrong religion he means everyone but the scylvendie, and they've had it right.

Ah, that's what it was. Another method of keeping souls from entering the Outside, while also simultaneously retaining the ability to give birth (which would explain why the Scylvendi were cool with -- and indeed, supportive of -- a decidedly non-human-friendly apocalypse).

Kind of an unrelated question but it just popped into my head; do we have any concept of the population-levels of the Three Seas?

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« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2013, 04:08:19 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
It's interesting how 'wrong' or 'right' starts to orbit the biggest source of torture.

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« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2013, 04:08:26 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
It's possible that the Scylvendi are the original owners of the Tusk. 

I see them as a deliberate inversion of the 'noble savage' in general.  Certainly more believable than the dothraki or Erikson's ... erm ... barghast was it? but I don't really know about their accuracy as a nomadic tribes people.  Pretty far away from indigenous Australians - who had stable cultural traditions for thousands of years...

They also lived in a harsh environment, and I think they crippled or killed miscreants but no way were they as savage as the people of war. (e.g. pulling someone's guts out for taking primacy etc)

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« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2013, 04:08:33 pm »
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: Curethan
It's possible that the Scylvendi are the original owners of the Tusk.
Nope, not according to Scött. He said in an interview that the Inchoroi made the Tusk and gave it to the Ketyai, who have held it ever since.   

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but I don't really know about their accuracy as a nomadic tribes people.  Pretty far away from indigenous Australians - who had stable cultural traditions for thousands of years...
Australian aboriginals were never a nomadic horseback people, they were primitive hunter-gatherers.

The Scylvendi, on the other hand, are a race of nomads who sit at the top of the food chain in Eärwa. They consciously choose to disdain all forms of high civilization and reject lifestyles that would soften them. Like all historical warrior nomads, they view the "tillers of earth" with contempt. In the pre-modern food chain, nomads were above peasants, who were above city-dwellers. The less civilization, the hardier fighters.

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They also lived in a harsh environment, and I think they crippled or killed miscreants but no way were they as savage as the people of war. (e.g. pulling someone's guts out for taking primacy etc)
The Scylvendi and their savage culture was pretty realistic, apart from the nihilistic "death-worship" aspect. In real life, the barren steppes were always a harsh environment that bred very harsh peoples - the Huns, Mongols, Manchus and Plains Indians did things that were shocking by the standards of civilized urban peoples. Defeated rivals in their power struggles were often punished brutally, so Cnaiur pulling out Yursalka's entrails (after killing his whole family) wouldn't be something surprising at all.

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« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2013, 04:08:40 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
All good points, obviously I am no anthropoloigist - cheers Auriga. :)

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« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2013, 04:08:47 pm »
Quote from: Jayfish
Re: the third portion of Mr. Buck's post, I personally think Cnaiur still has a role to play. And frankly, we don't really know that he died. The Tekne could certainly have kept him around of years. And after his experiences in TTT, I can easily see him joining the Consult.

As for the familiar territory of the "fake-out death" trope, I don't really give a shit. I'd just like to see in again. Although I think someone mentioned that Bakker has indicated his part is done.

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« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2013, 04:08:53 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Bakker's commentary on Cnaiur is from an interview, I believe. He simply says that Cnaiur's arc was written for and completed with PON. Lying lies?

Whether Cnaiur lives on himself or not, Moenghus the Younger certainly carries the Scylvendi torch and his father's brutal subjective aspect - he seems to implicitly understand the gap between himself and his family, even to the point of adopting Cnaiur's Trackless Steppe mentality. Arguably, we could imagine the Erratic Nonmen, the Consult, convincing Moenghus to lead based on his ancestral heritage.

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« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2013, 04:09:00 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
Quote from: Madness
Moenghus the Younger certainly carries the Scylvendi torch and his father's brutal subjective aspect - he seems to implicitly understand the gap between himself and his family, even to the point of adopting Cnaiur's Trackless Steppe mentality. Arguably, we could imagine the Erratic Nonmen, the Consult, convincing Moenghus to lead based on his ancestral heritage.

Which is kind of ironic after Cnaiur's musing over him in TTT that lil Moe's future adult self will depend entirely upon the culture in which he is raised.
Or perhaps this is Bakker showing/hinting that in Earwa there is more, a genetic memory or some guidance by the ancestor spirits or somesuch.  That the logos is not the only thing that seperates man from beast.

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« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2013, 04:09:08 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
or Kellhus whelmed Moe to be like that.

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« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2013, 04:09:14 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
Whelming is supposed to be the process of completely suppressing emotion (from Kellhus' remembrance anyway). 
It's certainly possible that he conditioned lil Moe to be like his father, but I can't see any reason (beyond nostalgia?) that Kellhus would do that.

I'm thinking from a perspective related to somewhere in the old westeros threads (where someone posited Cnaiur's reflection on his son's future development as being indicitive of Bakker hammering his notions of BBT and causality) though, so my post above is a more of a comment on authorial intent.

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« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2013, 04:09:21 pm »
Quote from: lockesnow
iirc, whelming is described in Warrior prophet as the way that Kellhus personally indoctrinates his Saudaukar to be total fanatics.