[H]

OK, doing a reread in places and I am pretty confused about the interplay between Ajokli and Kelmomas, or the seeming interplay between the two.  The "ultimate," or seemingly, scene Kelmomas certainly seems to be convinced that he possess a White-Luck of his (Ajolki's) own.  That the Narindar is his co-conspirator.  That the aim he and the Voice have been working toward is the death of Kellhus.

None of that is true though.

Kelmomas' call to Esmenet and Kellhus save them.  It actually disentangles the Narindar.

There would seem to be two options.  Either Ajolki's intentions are at total odds to Yatwer's, or there is no real connection between Kelmomas and Ajolki.

There is the further complication of the Voice, insisting that Kelmomas has "ruined everything."  Kelmomas "Ruined everything" by allowing Theli to die, or causing her to die?  It is only after Esment holds he body weeping that the voice says that.  Well, it is also after Kelmomas has a vision of Inrilatas.  Does the voice mean that Kel ruined everything by involving Inrilatas?

Off-the-wall theory: Kel was a Narindar for Ajolki, but disentangled himself?  Kellhus was supposed to die, but not Esmenet.  The plan got jacked up and so the Voice scrapped it, saving Esmenet, but inadvertently saving Kellhus too?

I have a further thought, but I think that is best for another thread.

[Blackstone]

OK, doing a reread in places and I am pretty confused about the interplay between Ajokli and Kelmomas, or the seeming interplay between the two.  The "ultimate," or seemingly, scene Kelmomas certainly seems to be convinced that he possess a White-Luck of his (Ajolki's) own.  That the Narindar is his co-conspirator.  That the aim he and the Voice have been working toward is the death of Kellhus.

None of that is true though.

Kelmomas' call to Esmenet and Kellhus save them.  It actually disentangles the Narindar.

There would seem to be two options.  Either Ajolki's intentions are at total odds to Yatwer's, or there is no real connection between Kelmomas and Ajolki.

There is the further complication of the Voice, insisting that Kelmomas has "ruined everything."  Kelmomas "Ruined everything" by allowing Theli to die, or causing her to die?  It is only after Esment holds he body weeping that the voice says that.  Well, it is also after Kelmomas has a vision of Inrilatas.  Does the voice mean that Kel ruined everything by involving Inrilatas?

Off-the-wall theory: Kel was a Narindar for Ajolki, but disentangled himself?  Kellhus was supposed to die, but not Esmenet.  The plan got jacked up and so the Voice scrapped it, saving Esmenet, but inadvertently saving Kellhus too?

I have a further thought, but I think that is best for another thread.

I'm sure you know, I am of the opinion that there is no real connection between Kelmomas and Ajokli. What I am not sure of is why Kelmoma's call save Kellhus, but I also read it differently than you. I did think that Kelmoma's call somehow took the WLW out of the circuit of his seeing, but I am of the opinion that cheating death was entirely on Kellhus, ie he would have avoided it regardless.

[H]

I'm sure you know, I am of the opinion that there is no real connection between Kelmomas and Ajokli. What I am not sure of is why Kelmoma's call save Kellhus, but I also read it differently than you. I did think that Kelmoma's call somehow took the WLW out of the circuit of his seeing, but I am of the opinion that cheating death was entirely on Kellhus, ie he would have avoided it regardless.

Yeah, that is definitely an option, that Kellhus was never really in danger, in fact, it was Esmenet perhaps who really was, hence why Kellhus returned?  Then, perhaps Kel really did save her...

But yeah, I feel pretty sure though that he somehow disentangled the Narindar.

[mrganondorf]

I'm sure you know, I am of the opinion that there is no real connection between Kelmomas and Ajokli. What I am not sure of is why Kelmoma's call save Kellhus, but I also read it differently than you. I did think that Kelmoma's call somehow took the WLW out of the circuit of his seeing, but I am of the opinion that cheating death was entirely on Kellhus, ie he would have avoided it regardless.

Yeah, that is definitely an option, that Kellhus was never really in danger, in fact, it was Esmenet perhaps who really was, hence why Kellhus returned?  Then, perhaps Kel really did save her...

But yeah, I feel pretty sure though that he somehow disentangled the Narindar.

i'm not sure that Kellhus was really in the driver's seat for all of this.  i was thinking--at some point he knew he needed to be with the GO 24/7 for whatever the Consult might throw their way and that he would have to stick until something was done about the Hoard.  the moment the Hoard is done, he takes off.  so, it could be that he really does value the New Empire (as in has further purposes for it) and really does aim to keep it together, he just could not return any sooner than when he did

[Madness]

Lol - I can't believe I'd forgotten that it's the differences in our interpretation of the same piece of code (text) that make Second Apocalypse such a rewarding place.

Blackstone and I had a great conversation last night - he continues to be an exceedingly interesting person and conversationalist - but I am firmly in the camp that Kelmomas is a true Narindar, in the sense that only Ajokli's devotees can be.

Kelmomas the character is, obviously, a crux of so many different happenings in the book so he can be difficult to parse. But anything we think we understand about Ajokli's Narindar has come from our interaction with The White-Luck Warrior who is actually Yatwer's - which means, aside the Warrior's interaction with the OG Assassin who tells us that Ajokli sees that which the other Gods do not, we know nothing about the true Narindari. This is why I think it's so important to distinguish the "Unerring Grace" from the "White-Luck" and that - I find - it seems like Unerring Grace trumps the White-Luck.

[H]

Kelmomas the character is, obviously, a crux of so many different happenings in the book so he can be difficult to parse.

Well, I think it is more than that though.  We see Kelmomas, seemingly, caught between the movements of his "own" soul, the Voice, his belief in Ajolki and possibly Kellhus...

[Blackstone]

And as I told Madness, my interpretation is that Unerring Grace is the same thing as the White Luck. Did anyone else think that, or am I on crack?

[H]

And as I told Madness, my interpretation is that Unerring Grace is the same thing as the White Luck. Did anyone else think that, or am I on crack?

I don't know, it's really not clear at all.  It would seem that both are basically the same, but I think that there probably is some kind of difference, because the White-Luck shows the Narindar exactly what is, at all times.  Kel never sees anything like that...

[Madness]

H, when you have a digital release you can go back and check for me but I feel like, especially in TGO, the Warrior's POV is highly variable in the particulars of what is going to happen but specific as to the generalities (like these people will die). In one POV - and I'll have to check later - I believe the Warrior sees himself stabbing Theli but then he just stands there while she's crushed...

I remain resolute that Ajokli's Narindar have an agency which exceeds the capacities of the faux-Narindar of other Gods.

[Wilshire]

And as I told Madness, my interpretation is that Unerring Grace is the same thing as the White Luck. Did anyone else think that, or am I on crack?

I don't know, it's really not clear at all.  It would seem that both are basically the same, but I think that there probably is some kind of difference, because the White-Luck shows the Narindar exactly what is, at all times.  Kel never sees anything like that...

Trick question, I think the way Kelmomas uses the terms have no distinction.

However, I think Yatwer's White-Luck, and Ajokli's Unerring Grace, differ, if only that they are similar phenomenon owned by different gods.

H, when you have a digital release you can go back and check for me but I feel like, especially in TGO, the Warrior's POV is highly variable in the particulars of what is going to happen but specific as to the generalities (like these people will die). In one POV - and I'll have to check later - I believe the Warrior sees himself stabbing Theli but then he just stands there while she's crushed...

I remain resolute that Ajokli's Narindar have an agency which exceeds the capacities of the faux-Narindar of other Gods.

Kelmomas dreams that he is stabbed in the eye by WLW through the grate, and its framed in a way that implies that it agrees with the WLW's visions that same night.

I haven't looked at WLW's perspectives and actual chain of events, curious if they differ.

And, I'd have to agree with Madness regarding Ajokli Narindar > All others.
One major point supporting this is that Ajokli is allegedly the only God that can see the No-God and the Consult machinations. The Ajokli chosen souls, his assassins, his Narindar, would have fewer blind spots than any other God.

As for how Kelmomas fits into that piece of the puzzle, I'm not really sure.
He really seems to have a connection with Ajokl - what with the whole whelming scene and it being brought up by the-voice-that-is-sammi. But there is nothing so direct as Sorweel's interactions with Yatwer-manifest.
Something caused Kelmomas to surprise the WLW. He fell within Yatwer's blindspot, if only for just that one moment. Why? There is a bit at the end of that scene where it says something to the effect of 'a boy not quite human'. Reminds me of the God's not seeing the Consult's weapons.

I said it somewhere before, but it bears repeating: The WLWs vision cannot are infallible if the god giving him those visions cannot see the world as it is. If the NG was standing in front of Kellhus when he swung his sword, he'd hit a big sarcophagus.
Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that the conclusion of his visions are incorrect. The outcome can still occur by some other path... Or they could be totally false because the path is flawed.

[H]

And, I'd have to agree with Madness regarding Ajokli Narindar > All others.
One major point supporting this is that Ajokli is allegedly the only God that can see the No-God and the Consult machinations. The Ajokli chosen souls, his assassins, his Narindar, would have fewer blind spots than any other God.

Where is that implied?  In TGO?

I said it somewhere before, but it bears repeating: The WLWs vision cannot are infallible if the god giving him those visions cannot see the world as it is. If the NG was standing in front of Kellhus when he swung his sword, he'd hit a big sarcophagus.
Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that the conclusion of his visions are incorrect. The outcome can still occur by some other path... Or they could be totally false because the path is flawed.

That was a big question for me coming in.  Can Yatwer be wrong?  And the answer seems to be absolutely, yes.

The question now is, why?  I don't know if I am buying Ajolki's involvement just yet.  It answers a lot of questions about Kel, but still leave Kellhus' involvement and inability to be seen out there.  Is Kellhus an unwitting pawn of Ajoki too?  I think there is more to it though.

[Wilshire]

And, I'd have to agree with Madness regarding Ajokli Narindar > All others.
One major point supporting this is that Ajokli is allegedly the only God that can see the No-God and the Consult machinations. The Ajokli chosen souls, his assassins, his Narindar, would have fewer blind spots than any other God.

Where is that implied?  In TGO?

The God's blindspots are mentioned throughout the series, I don't know where specifically

I said it somewhere before, but it bears repeating: The WLWs vision cannot are infallible if the god giving him those visions cannot see the world as it is. If the NG was standing in front of Kellhus when he swung his sword, he'd hit a big sarcophagus.
Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that the conclusion of his visions are incorrect. The outcome can still occur by some other path... Or they could be totally false because the path is flawed.

That was a big question for me coming in.  Can Yatwer be wrong?  And the answer seems to be absolutely, yes.

The question now is, why?  I don't know if I am buying Ajolki's involvement just yet.  It answers a lot of questions about Kel, but still leave Kellhus' involvement and inability to be seen out there.  Is Kellhus an unwitting pawn of Ajoki too?  I think there is more to it though.

You can't correctly predict the future without all the variables, can you? Yatwer and the Gods are blind to the Consult's soulless creations, and the NG, which are major variables at play.

[H]

And, I'd have to agree with Madness regarding Ajokli Narindar > All others.
One major point supporting this is that Ajokli is allegedly the only God that can see the No-God and the Consult machinations. The Ajokli chosen souls, his assassins, his Narindar, would have fewer blind spots than any other God.

Where is that implied?  In TGO?

The God's blindspots are mentioned throughout the series, I don't know where specifically

Yeah, I can recall numerous times where we're told what they can't see, but I don't remember being told take Ajolki would be an exception.

Or are we just extrapolating this from the fact that Kel seems to be outwitting Yatwer?  I'm confused...

I said it somewhere before, but it bears repeating: The WLWs vision cannot are infallible if the god giving him those visions cannot see the world as it is. If the NG was standing in front of Kellhus when he swung his sword, he'd hit a big sarcophagus.
Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that the conclusion of his visions are incorrect. The outcome can still occur by some other path... Or they could be totally false because the path is flawed.

That was a big question for me coming in.  Can Yatwer be wrong?  And the answer seems to be absolutely, yes.

The question now is, why?  I don't know if I am buying Ajolki's involvement just yet.  It answers a lot of questions about Kel, but still leave Kellhus' involvement and inability to be seen out there.  Is Kellhus an unwitting pawn of Ajoki too?  I think there is more to it though.

You can't correctly predict the future without all the variables, can you? Yatwer and the Gods are blind to the Consult's soulless creations, and the NG, which are major variables at play.

As I speculated in my earlier thread, I think it goes deeper though.  I think the soulless things, the Consult (like Inrilatas tells us, you can be self-moving by heaping damnation onto yourself), Kel, Kellhus, Moe, Maith, are all things that the God's can't see because they are self-moving souls.  Or nearly so.  The Gods are the Darkness, so they can see where that extrapolates to, in the chain of cause and effect.  No soul, no Darkness.  Self-moving soul, the chain is broken.

Of course I have no way to support that.  Maybe I'm duped by Ajolki like everyone else, 

[Wilshire]

I can never remember where it's said, but somewhere it's mentioned that Ajokli is known as the trickster god because he was the only one that could see the Consult's stuff.

Specifically, the gods cannot see "intellects without a soul" or something akin to that. Direct quotes would be helpful... I should suck it up and get the Kindle editions.

It would stand to reason that if there are self-movings souls in the world, then the gods would be blind to them. The gods, like everything else, are blind to their blindness. They assume that what they see is everything there is to see (probably some connection to BBT). They would be as blind to something coming before them as the world born are to Kellhus' manipulations.

While I doubt there are any mortals that have self-moving souls, I think "the god" or the Zero-God (ZG or TZG, hurray for more acronyms) might be such a 'coming before' to the gods we know - Yatwer and the like.

[H]

I can never remember where it's said, but somewhere it's mentioned that Ajokli is known as the trickster god because he was the only one that could see the Consult's stuff.

This is the begining of Chapter 11 of WLW:

"The Four-Horned Brother..." the long-haired man was saying. "Do you know why he is shunned by the others? Why my Cult and my Cult alone is condemned in the Tusk?"
"Ajokli is the Fool," he heard himself reply.
The long-haired man smiled. "He only seems such because he sees what the others do not see... What you do not see."
"I have no need of seeing."

That is the only reference I could find though.  It is rather cryptic, but it does go to your point.

Specifically, the gods cannot see "intellects without a soul" or something akin to that. Direct quotes would be helpful... I should suck it up and get the Kindle editions.

This I couldn't find though.

It would stand to reason that if there are self-movings souls in the world, then the gods would be blind to them. The gods, like everything else, are blind to their blindness. They assume that what they see is everything there is to see (probably some connection to BBT). They would be as blind to something coming before them as the world born are to Kellhus' manipulations.

While I doubt there are any mortals that have self-moving souls, I think "the god" or the Zero-God (ZG or TZG, hurray for more acronyms) might be such a 'coming before' to the gods we know - Yatwer and the like.

Indeed, but seemingly the Zero-God is an abstraction, not a real thing?  At least, so Koringhus seems to say.

But when he jumped, did he achieve the Absolute then?  Is Koringhus the Zero-God now?  That doesn't make much sense, then he would be inhabiting Mimara, if we follow what he said to it's logical conclusion...