[TGO SPOILERS] Kiünnat and Zero

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« on: May 17, 2016, 12:44:04 pm »
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Because zero was everywhere, measure was everywhere-as was arithmetic.  Submit to the rule of another and you will measure as he measures.  Zero was not simply nothing; it was also identity, for nothing is nothing but the absence of difference, and  the absence of difference is nothing but the same.
Thus the Survivor began calling this new principle Zero, for he distrusted the name the old Wizard had given it ...
God.
The great error of the Dûnyain, he could see now, was to conceive the Absolute as something passivem to think it a vacancy, dumb and insensate, awaiting their generational arrival.  The great error of the worldborn, he could see, was to conceive it as something active, to think it just another soul, a flattering caricature of their own souls.  Thus the utility of Zero, something that was not, something that pinched all existence, every origin and destination, into a singular point, into One.  Something that commanded all measure, not through arbitrary dispensations of force, but by virtue of structure ... system ...
Logos.
The God that was Nature.  The God that every soul could be, if only for the span of a single insight ...
The Zero-God.  The absence that was the cubit of all creation.

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In Inrithi tradition, the unitary, omniscient, omnipotent, and immanent being responsible for existence, of which Gods (and in some strains Men) are but “aspects.” In the Kiünnat tradition, the God is more an abstract placeholder than anything else. In the Fanim tradition, the God is the unitary, omniscient, omnipotent, and transcendent being responsible for existence (thus the “Solitary God”), against which the Gods war for the hearts of men.

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In the Inrithi tradition, the Hundred Gods are thought to be aspects of the God (whom Inri Sejenus famously called “the Million Souled”), much the way various personality traits could be said to inhabit an individual. In the far more variegated Kiünnat tradition, the Hundred Gods are thought to be independent spiritual agencies, prone to indirectly intervene in the lives of their worshippers.

I know that often, people were of the mind that the Solitary God was the true God.  I had doubts about that from the get go.  Seeing how Yatwer has such power and wed this with Koringhus' revelation that the Zero-God and the Absolute are the same, lead me to the fact that the Kiünnat is the real truth.

This makes sense, since it is the ancient worship, that which is least touched by the tainted and changed Tusk.

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The Absolute dwells within your Gaze.  You ... a frail, worldborn slip, heavy with child, chased across the throw of kings and nations, you are the Nail of the World, the hook from which all things hang.

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But even this metaphor, “nail,” is faulty, a result of what happens when we confuse our notation with what is noted. Like the numeral “zero” used by the Nilnameshi mathematicians to work such wonders, ignorance is the occluded frame of all discourse, the unseen circumference of our every contention. Men are forever looking for the one point, the singular fulcrum they can use to dislodge all competing claims. Ignorance does not give us this. What it provides, rather, is the possibility of comparison, the assurance that not all claims are equal. And this, Ajencis would argue, is all that we need. For so long as we admit our ignorance, we can hope to improve our claims, and so long as we can improve our claims, we can aspire to the Truth, even if only in rank approximation.

The Zero principle, that if you are Zero, everything else is One.  This is how you achieve that absolute.  Zero fits into One infinity.  Therefor, as Zero, you are everywhere, even if you are nowhere.  This is how the God, errr, the Absolute is infinite.  This is how everything comes together, if you are Zero, all other things are One, that is, apart from Zero.  Additionally, Zero is the cubit of creation, because, as every point's origin, it is the fundamental building block of everything.  All things start at Zero.  In other words, Zero is the ultimate Darkness that Comes Before.  There is no more fundamental nature to things.  If you are at Zero, you are the fount of Everything.  That is the Absolute.  That which comes before everything (including itself).

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For whatever reason, the Three Seas seemed particularly prone to prophets and their tricks. Where Zeüm had remained faithful to the old Kiünnat ways, albeit in their own elliptical fashion, the Ketyai—the Tribe entrusted with the Holy Tusk, no less!—seemed bent on tearing down their ancient truths and replacing them with abstraction and fancy.

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"Fane?" the woman cried, her incredulity so thoughtless, so complete, that feminine timbre blotted out all other sound. "Fane is a fraud, what happens when philosophers fall to worshipping their fevers!"

Oh, yes, indeed.  Fane is but the tail end of the Inchoroi manipulation of the Tusk (remember, Fane was Inrithi at first).  Inri Sejanus a step on that trail as well.  They are all perversions, twists of the Truth faith.  Yatwer, Ajolki, and the rest of the Hundred are Deamons.  The Solitary God is nothing but an idea.

The true faith is in Zeüm.  It's no wonder why they have had no prophets there.  They don't need them.  They have basically been right the whole time.  It's all the Ketyai that have been wrong.  And they have been made that way.


The question is, what happens with Mimara?  I actually think that somehow, when she gives birth, something miraculous will happen with the child.  If Mimara is the Zero point, if she is the cubit, the measure, then what she makes, what she births, must be the True Savior?  Maybe, maybe not...
« Last Edit: July 12, 2016, 04:45:17 pm by Madness »
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2016, 08:50:58 pm »
Mimara is the closest thing to a true prophet, but only because she . I don't think her child, unless its a girl and has TJE, will necessarily be special.

What makes the Solitary God interesting is really just the Psukhe. What makes the worship of a particular false god change the dispensation of sorcery?

What are the implications of all this for Kellhus? I assume he knew of TJE ... Did this drive him to further madness?

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« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2016, 09:19:25 pm »
Mimara is the closest thing to a true prophet, but only because she . I don't think her child, unless its a girl and has TJE, will necessarily be special.

What makes the Solitary God interesting is really just the Psukhe. What makes the worship of a particular false god change the dispensation of sorcery?

That's a good question.  Presumably, if the Solitary God is false, the Psukhe is real of it's own accord.  Indeed, we have "proof" if Titirga's muted mark is due to "Water."

I actually can't recall anywhere that we get evidence that the Solitary God is real though, do we?  Psuhke aside, of course.

What are the implications of all this for Kellhus? I assume he knew of TJE ... Did this drive him to further madness?

Well, that has been a question for a while though, right?

Did/Does Kellhus know of the Judging Eye?  Now we can ask, does Kellhus know what Koringhus figured out?  I actually think he might not, since Mimara says she never saw Kellhus with the Eye.  That means that it is possible that Koringhus precedes Kellhus into the Absolute.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

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« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2016, 12:40:42 am »
Ugh... there are things I want to ask but the fact that they aren't self-evident requires that I wait for a couple months, I think.

Lol - this draft to ARC to canon artifact is a new twist on my ongoing fate ;).
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« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2016, 01:21:18 am »
Ugh... there are things I want to ask but the fact that they aren't self-evident requires that I wait for a couple months, I think.

Lol - this draft to ARC to canon artifact is a new twist on my ongoing fate ;).

Further cryptic statement, is further cryptic, haha.

That being said, this is a very rough idea I have, it will take me at least another reread to probably make it intelligible...
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

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« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2016, 01:36:27 am »
Sorry, H. HP is right though, Bakker would spend less time obscuring what the actualities of certain ambiguities in the draft than the canon artifact. I don't want to inadvertently give anything away now, in the last stretch, when I could just forget about everything I've read and treat the canon artifact as the truth of all ;).
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« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2016, 10:11:50 am »
Sorry, H. HP is right though, Bakker would spend less time obscuring what the actualities of certain ambiguities in the draft than the canon artifact. I don't want to inadvertently give anything away now, in the last stretch, when I could just forget about everything I've read and treat the canon artifact as the truth of all ;).

Haha, I'm not upset, I just know that there is only a certain extent to which I can draw this, simply because I am not so well read and smart to unravel deep philosophical meaning.

Back to this idea though, I think there is something to the establishment of a binary here, that God is Zero and the World is One.

Again though, the deep significance is lost on me though.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

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« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2016, 02:13:52 pm »
Double post, but hey, I'm a man, I gotta be free.

This conversation between Psatma and Meppa:

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"Call her what you will!" Psatma Nannaferi exclaimed. "Demon? Yes! I worship a demon!—if it pleases you to call her such! You think we worship the Hundred because they are good? Madness governs the Outside, Snakehead, not gods or demons—or even the God! Fool! We worship them because they have power over us. And we—we Yatwerians—worship the one with the most power of all!"
Malowebi squelched another urge to call out, to urge the Fanim to spare her, to set her free, then to burn a hundred bulls in Yatwer's honour. The Mother was here! Here!
"Gods are naught but greater demons," the Cishaurim said, "hungers across the surface of eternity, wanting only to taste the clarity of our souls. Can you not see this?"
The woman's laughter trailed into a cunning smile. "Hungers indeed! The fat will be eaten, of course. But the high holy? The faithful? They shall be celebrated!"
Meppa's voice was no mean one, yet its timbre paled in the wake of the Mother-Supreme's clawing rasp. Even still he pressed, a tone of urgent sincerity the only finger he had to balance the scales. "We are a narcotic to them. They eat our smoke. They make jewellery of our thoughts and passions. They are beguiled by our torment, our ecstasy, so they collect us, pluck us like strings, make chords of nations, play the music of our anguish over endless ages. We have seen this, woman. We have seen this with our missing eyes!"
Malowebi scowled. Fanim madness... It had to be.
"Then you know," Psatma Nannaferi said in a growl that crawled across Malowebi's skin. "There will be no end to your eating, when She takes you. Your blood, your flesh—they are inexhaustible in death. Taste what little air you can breathe, Snakehead. You presume your Solitary God resembles you. You make your image the form of the One. You think you can trace lines, borders, through the Outside, like that fool, Sejenus, say what belongs to the God of Gods and what does not—errant abstractions! Hubris! The Goddess waits, Snakehead, and you are but a mote before her patience! Birth and War alone can seize—and seize She does!"

Interesting for several reasons.

First, Psatma actually admits that Yatwer is a demon and I don't think she is wrong.  There is no difference between a God and a demon, except relative power levels.

Second, Meppa actually admits that the Gods feast on damnation, essentially.

Third, Psatma renounces Inri Sejenus, another false prophet.  His goal, it would seem, was to shackle the 100.  Support, perhaps then, for Kellhus' proclamation to Proyas, that prophets "deliver the word of Men to the God."

Notice that Meppa says he has seen how the 100 feast, are demons, yet no where does he says he has seen the Solitary God.  This is because, I am increacingly convinced, there is no Solitary God.  It is an idea, an abstraction, but nothing else.  The fact that the Psuhke does not Mark is happenstance, a fortunate coincidence, nothing more.

I still haven't put all the pieces together, but once this is out in the open, I'm sure someone smarter will.

EDIT: I forgot to add another point.  Psatma says that "Birth and War alone can seize" and if we extrapolate this a bit, Yatwer=Birth and Gilgaöl=War, but Gilgaöl also is the "Dread Father of Death."  Therefor it is Yatwer and Gilgaöl that basically rule the Outside in the competition for Earwan souls?

As a point to take this further, perhaps this is why if Ajokli fights Yatwer?  He wants more of the action.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 02:33:07 pm by H »
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

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« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2016, 12:30:50 pm »
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"Fane?" the woman cried, her incredulity so thoughtless, so complete, that feminine timbre blotted out all other sound. "Fane is a fraud, what happens when philosophers fall to worshipping their fevers!"

Quote-ception.

Kal brought up a good point elsewhere, that this quote:

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… the ends of the earth shall be wracked by the howls of the wicked, and the idols shall be cast down and shattered, stone against stone. And the demons of the idolaters shall hold open their mouths, like starving lepers, for no man living will answer their outrageous hunger.
—16:4:22 THE WITNESS OF FANE

Could actually be Fane witnessing The Great Ordeal's end?  Kellhus' ascension?

In other words, could it be that Kellhus is the Solitary God?  That the reason Yatwer deems Fane false, is the very reason he is true?  That Yatwer is right, there isn't a Solitary God...not yet.  Fane saw the future, which could explain why Fanimry has a "prohibition of all representations of the God."  Because that would screw up the timeline, if they could see Kellhus' image as the Solitary God.

This could explain why the Psûkhe has no Mark.  It will be the new breed of sorcery, flowing from the new order of Kellhus as God.  Oh, let the crack-pottery flow as Water...

EDIT: Post 777, lucky day...
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Blackstone

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« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2016, 03:13:12 pm »
I know that often, people were of the mind that the Solitary God was the true God.  I had doubts about that from the get go.  Seeing how Yatwer has such power and wed this with Koringhus' revelation that the Zero-God and the Absolute are the same, lead me to the fact that the Kiünnat is the real truth.

This makes sense, since it is the ancient worship, that which is least touched by the tainted and changed Tusk.

I don't think Kiunnat is any less tainted by the Tusk. They still follow the Tusk, just not Inri Sejenus's interpretation of the Tusk. So more than likely, they are still taking as scripture the parts the Inchoroi added in.
There was a passage somewhere in the book that made me think the gods (or at least some of them) were Inchoroi. Or, at least, the times when men interacted with gods on the physical plain, the gods were actually Inchoroi. I don't remember where it was in the ARC though.

Quote
"Fane?" the woman cried, her incredulity so thoughtless, so complete, that feminine timbre blotted out all other sound. "Fane is a fraud, what happens when philosophers fall to worshipping their fevers!"

Quote-ception.

Kal brought up a good point elsewhere, that this quote:

Quote
… the ends of the earth shall be wracked by the howls of the wicked, and the idols shall be cast down and shattered, stone against stone. And the demons of the idolaters shall hold open their mouths, like starving lepers, for no man living will answer their outrageous hunger.
—16:4:22 THE WITNESS OF FANE

Could actually be Fane witnessing The Great Ordeal's end?  Kellhus' ascension?

In other words, could it be that Kellhus is the Solitary God?  That the reason Yatwer deems Fane false, is the very reason he is true?  That Yatwer is right, there isn't a Solitary God...not yet.  Fane saw the future, which could explain why Fanimry has a "prohibition of all representations of the God."  Because that would screw up the timeline, if they could see Kellhus' image as the Solitary God.

This could explain why the Psûkhe has no Mark.  It will be the new breed of sorcery, flowing from the new order of Kellhus as God.  Oh, let the crack-pottery flow as Water...

EDIT: Post 777, lucky day...
Interesting thought here, especially when paired with the idea that the passage from the Witness of Fane is actually about the GO.
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« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2016, 03:51:05 pm »
I don't think Kiunnat is any less tainted by the Tusk. They still follow the Tusk, just not Inri Sejenus's interpretation of the Tusk. So more than likely, they are still taking as scripture the parts the Inchoroi added in.
There was a passage somewhere in the book that made me think the gods (or at least some of them) were Inchoroi. Or, at least, the times when men interacted with gods on the physical plain, the gods were actually Inchoroi. I don't remember where it was in the ARC though.

Oh, I believe it is also tainted, but I think the idea behind it does predate the "pollution" of the Tusk by the Inchoroi.

And I have been down on an Ichoroi being who Angeshraël meets and is told by to invade Eärwa.

Interesting thought here, especially when paired with the idea that the passage from the Witness of Fane is actually about the GO.

Another point is that perhaps Water can actually wash away the Mark and this is how Kellhus plans to undo the damnation of all the sorcerers?
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

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« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2016, 04:02:25 pm »

And I have been down on an Ichoroi being who Angeshraël meets and is told by to invade Eärwa.

Totally agree.
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« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2016, 04:06:58 pm »

And I have been down on an Ichoroi being who Angeshraël meets and is told by to invade Eärwa.

Totally agree.

I actually submitted that as a question for Pat to ask Bakker, but I doubt if he'll answer it...
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

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« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2016, 12:04:58 am »

And I have been down on an Ichoroi being who Angeshraël meets and is told by to invade Eärwa.

Totally agree.

I actually submitted that as a question for Pat to ask Bakker, but I doubt if he'll answer it...

I'm super curious to read that interview - especially in light of Bakker's total pre-release silence so far. H, there are precedents for Bakker answering ridiculous world-questions.
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« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2016, 11:05:00 am »
I'm super curious to read that interview - especially in light of Bakker's total pre-release silence so far. H, there are precedents for Bakker answering ridiculous world-questions.

Oh, indeed.  In fact, it was one of those rare times that set me upon the idea in the first place.  I still have my doubts that he'll answer, but I'd love to be surprised.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira