The House of Yesteryear (http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/stories/the-house-of-yesteryear-three-roses-book-one-2/)[/u]
These are the working prologue and first two chapters (I believe) of the Three Roses. Roger is already known to many of TPB regulars but I thought I'd give him a little pimping here regardless. For those of you who don't know Roger, he is a writing compadre of Bakker's, a PhD candidate, guest blogger at TPB, and Veteran of the Trenches at Vox Popoli.
At the very least he can mine our thread for his comments and criticisms.
Cheers.
Thanks for the link! I am, of course, very interested to hear what people think of the opening of my novel.
And yes, it's the prologue and first two chapters that are posted. The content on the TPB changed dramatically as a result of the feedback I received both there and elsewhere. Most dramatically, I collapsed what was originally the first two chapters into a single chapter (now Chapter 1). In doing so, I'm attempting to cover the same narrative ground in just about half the length. Also, since what had been the first two chapters were made into one, I decided to post the next chapter, i.e., what used to be Chapter 3 but is now Chapter 2.
So far, I've only gotten feedback on the revised Chapter 1 and the newly posted Chapter 2 from one person (Subutei). (Abalieno commented, but only on the prologue.)
I say all of this, obviously, hoping to tempt folks who read earlier drafts to take a look at what's up there now. I think (= hope) that it's much more accessible now.
QuoteIn doing so, I'm attempting to cover the same narrative ground in just about half the length.
Doesn't this kinda destroy any neat structures you may have assembled before? If 'well, sometimes you gotta kill your babies' is the answer, then I'd ask what is the baby one is keen enough on to write to begin with, that one is keeping?
Just asking about your perspectives on writing, really :)
I agree - it is far more accessible now. Once I finish I might post up some more thoughts, if you like.
I concur, I'm not sure what black magic you had up your sleeve, Roger, but you condensed the shit out of those first two chapters.
I really enjoyed the prologue. That being said, the prologue is doing what's supposed to do, facilitating the mystery. I particularly enjoyed Abbe Demilio. Also, I look forward to Lockard's journey to...(click to show/hide)
I know you won't answer, however, I thought I'd hazard a guess to provide you with more data.
Alianore intrigues me but I actually felt more sympathy for her sister Jacquetta's character and circumstance.
I think "the game" and "the Opponent" are such a fantastic metaphors, in my reading, reminiscent of Bakker's Benjuka. Just very cool conceptions.
What didn't work for me was Jerome. Essentially, I feel he's marked for the story's ultimate heroic role - the tattoo and the historic reincarnation of the flag - and I feel, perhaps, you're invoking too many "he's not ready" connotations.
Obviously, I don't have much more to offer this time than I did last, Roger. I'm looking forward to your story and all your future writings.
Quote from: MadnessAlianore intrigues me but I actually felt more sympathy for her sister Jacquetta's character and circumstance.
That's interesting -- and not at all unwelcome. I like the idea of readers being sympathetic to, and interested in, Jacquetta, esp. given how little 'screen-time' she actually gets.Quote from: MadnessWhat didn't work for me was Jerome. Essentially, I feel he's marked for the story's ultimate heroic role - the tattoo and the historic reincarnation of the flag - and I feel, perhaps, you're invoking too many "he's not ready" connotations.
That's interesting. Obviously I need Jerome to 'work' for readers. He does play an important role in the overall story, as you can imagine; but I think you'll be surprised at how that role unfolds. It's not -- or at least, I think and hope it's not -- a rote or predictable role at all. He's one of numerous 'narrative unconventialities' I'm hoping will add to rather than detract from the story.
Thanks for the comments! I wish I had responded sooner, but I've had to put the book aside for some months now. I hope to get back to it after the holidays. Maybe I'll even get the beast finished next year...
If I do, anyone willing to be a 'beta-reader'?
No jokes, delavagus, I was in Chapters just the other day and thought to myself... there's nothing here I want to read (SFF anyhow), I wish Roger's book was out.
I'd certainly volunteer. sciborg, Callan, Francis, and Camlost are also good bets as they seems to have been informally passing their work around to each other already. Plus they're the ones regularly bending themselves to the page :).
I think since I've been bemoaning a lack of feedback loops from campfire tale spinner to campfire audience, I should show interest in what does beta-reading involve?
Quote from: Madness... I wish Roger's book was out.
Me too! :DQuote from: MadnessI'd certainly volunteer. sciborg, Callan, Francis, and Camlost are also good bets as they seems to have been informally passing their work around to each other already. Plus they're the ones regularly bending themselves to the page :).
Well, maybe I'll post back here when it's done.
Quote from: Callan S.... in what does beta-reading involve?
It simply involves reading the manuscript and providing feedback on it. Any interest?
Cheers, delavagus. Hope all is well with you and yours. Get to task :D.
thought not a writer of any kind, this sounds like an interesting project. Beta-reading, an apt name. Hope that works out.
I'd do some reading and feedbacking, if the perspective of the mundane is worth much to anyone.
Yes, interested in beta reading! My bias is at your disposal!
http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/stories/the-house-of-yesteryear-three-roses-book-one-2/ (http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/stories/the-house-of-yesteryear-three-roses-book-one-2/)
For anyone who's interested, I've updated the Prologue and the first two chapters (i.e., everything that was up there already). I've also added Chapter 3.
Just wow, delavagus. I could reread that prologue over and over.
I'll have more coherent thoughts later but your story is awesome. Love where its going in Ch. 3. You got yourself at least one reader. Hurry up and keep writing :).
Thanks, Madness! (What's your name, again? Mike? My memory for names is terrible...)
BTW, I had no idea my maps would post at their full size. I figured the site would make thumbnails out of them. Do you think I should get rid of them? Or shrink them? They make this page rather unwieldy...
Yeap, that'd be me. Not so terrible.
Hmm... I took the time to explore them. It is only this one page that will be stretched like this within the thread.
I leave it up to those who are reading this thread at all. I don't mind.
Still not the coherency I'd like but some thoughts:
Really like the conception of Kosmos Biblioth, the Kosmokinoi, worldwalkers, the different Orders. Contzen was awesome.
I could read the prologue especially but any sidereas at all, over and over again.
I really appreciate the idea of world-slips, certain individuals being instrumental in using those moments as fulcrums against the Opponent, and the psychological integration that takes.
Late night for me tonight and early morning tomorrow but you've had me exploring your world all day in my mind. Something to be said for that.
Cheers.
String theory a big inspiration?
I've only read part so far (I just don't enjoy reading for pleasure from a computer screen, though I can read forums all day)
Just so far; I'm not sure how much weight you put on opening lines, but to me the first line didn't have a mystery in it. To me, you could tie that sorcerer in, like how it says the monastary is surrounded by fog, you could also add 'and inside it, a fog surrounded by a man. A sorcerer.' or something.
During the game, I think something should be at stake. Yes, maybe I don't know about the thing that is at stake during it and that's revealed latter - but for us clompers, perhaps something of concerning and fairly obvious nature could also be happening in the background, that the player aught deal with?
Am looking forward to this thread getting to the second page - the images are making the posting box unpleasant to work with.
I just took a gander at editing your post, Delavagus. There's some kind of image portal beneath the text window where you can click text to upload images specifically.
I'm not sure if that will change how these are displayed. The way they're imbedded weirds me out too.
I just got rid of the maps. I could shrink them and repost if anyone's interested. Let me know.
Thanks for reading and for taking the time to post some of your thoughts, Callan.Quote from: Callan S.I'm not sure how much weight you put on opening lines, but to me the first line didn't have a mystery in it.
I'm of two minds about the whole 'first-line' question. Some argue, of course, that first lines have to be big and flashy or otherwise do that something super-special and mysterious that grabs readers by the scruff of their necks and forces them to read on. Yet the first lines of a great many very good and successful books seems to belie this claim.
My aspiration with the opening paragraph is simply to set a scene, a mood, in as quietly, unobtrusively beautiful a way as I can.Quote from: Callan S.During the game, I think something should be at stake.
Hmm. Something _is_ at stake, of course, but what that 'something' is only comes out at the end. My intent was that the sheer oddity and smoldering menace of the scene would be sufficiently compelling. But I'll give some thought to what you've said.
Thanks again.
+1 for Paragraphs.
devalagus, Wilshire posted a picture he thought would screw with the border in another thread and he simply put it within spoiler tags... I wonder if that would solve the problem with your maps.
delavagus was kind enough to post another excerpt from The House of Yesteryear. Real good stuff. I'm gauging from what I've read so far that book one of Three Roses is either real big or the he's going to deny us the meat until book two ;). Relatively spoiler free as up til Ch. 3 is released: Three Roses, Book One: The House of Yesteryear[/b][/i] (http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/stories/the-house-of-yesteryear-three-roses-book-one-2/).
Either way, guaranteed I'm going to burn through this book in a sitting :(. Keep cracking delavagus, you've got, at least, my modest purchases as future reward.
Excerpt Ch. 10[/b] (http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/stories/three-roses-bk-1-the-house-of-yesteryear-bonus-scene-1/)
Thanks for linking to this, and for taking the time to read.Quote from: MadnessI'm gauging from what I've read so far that book one of Three Roses is either real big or the he's going to deny us the meat until book two ;).
I'm wondering if you could say more about this. Are you referring to the fact that, even ten chapters in, here we are being introduced to a new viewpoint character (which suggests that even at Chapter 10 the book remains in 'build-up' mode)? Or something like that?
If so, then it's interesting how wrong -- and yet how right! -- you are. I thought about mentioning this in my introductory remarks to the 'Bonus Scene' on the TPB, but I'll mention it here: One of the peculiar things about The House of Yesteryear is that it's composed of three more or less self-standing sections (Parts 1-3).
Partly it just worked out this way, but my thinking was something like this: One of the banes of fantasy series, and one of their most frustrating features, is a lack of resolution. They just go on and on and on. But as we know, both from books and especially from serialized television, it is entirely possible to tell long, involved arcs that are composed of a number of smaller narrative arcs. An obvious benefit of this sort of 'narrative nesting' is that resolutions are satisfying, and so nesting resolutions into the overall arc creates these moments. We all know what it feels like when a story starts hurtling toward a conclusion: how the momentum picks up, the pieces start coming together, your heart starts racing a bit faster. Now, of course all these things can happen without anything 'resolving,' but resolutions have a particular sort of narrative spark to them, I think. They're tantalizing enough that sometimes nothing but the promise of reaching that point will draw readers through literally thousands of pages of a series even if they're tired of that series. It's quite remarkable, really.
Anyway. My idea -- I don't know if it's true, but... -- is that fantasy readers are hungry for genuine narrative resolutions. Scott did something like this by having his overall story break down into three sections. The end of TTT, while clearly leaving a lot of story to tell, simply feels like an ending. I'm trying to take it a step further in my first book, by having each of its three parts form its own narrative arc, with a beginning, middle, and end. In fact, together they even something of the common structure of trilogies: Part 1 offers a satisfying conclusion, but not as satisfying as Part 3, while Part 2 is the most openended.
So you're right that, even in Chapter 10, I'm in 'build-up' mode -- but that's because Chapter 10 is the second chapter of Part 2. The entire Part-1 arc has been resolved by then, and the second arc is underway.
I figure that if I can pull off this structure, it should be awfully appealing to readers. The most obvious challenge, of course, is that the most difficult part of any story is the beginning: getting the narrative plane off the ground. I actually think this is why so many fantasy series never resolve, because it's just too demanding a task to consider landing the behemoth plane only to have to take off in it again. The way THOY is set up, though, I essentially have to start over again three separate times!
I can never make things easy on myself...
Quote from: delavagusI'm wondering if you could say more about this. Are you referring to the fact that, even ten chapters in, here we are being introduced to a new viewpoint character (which suggests that even at Chapter 10 the book remains in 'build-up' mode)? Or something like that?
My association was towards the stage you are sketching, though definitely the late temporal entry in the narrative contributes the size of that stage. I have thoughts, which I'll try and explore with even a measure of the rigour you exercise :).
An aside, I think you would make a very many people happy to do a version of these topics or even a summary of this conversation over at TPB, regardless of TPB being purposeful only towards any specific end ;).
To pick one motif, you've considered resolution extensively. I think - apart from its actual existence in Serial World, as you've mentioned above - that resolution is a readerly assumption, perhaps, even a writerly one.
Yet its the fact of assumed resolution that narrative rests on.Quote from: delavagusAn obvious benefit of this sort of 'narrative nesting' is that resolutions are satisfying, and so nesting resolutions into the overall arc creates these moments. We all know what it feels like when a story starts hurtling toward a conclusion: how the momentum picks up, the pieces start coming together, your heart starts racing a bit faster. Now, of course all these things can happen without anything 'resolving,' but resolutions have a particular sort of narrative spark to them, I think. They're tantalizing enough that sometimes nothing but the promise of reaching that point will draw readers through literally thousands of pages of a series even if they're tired of that series. It's quite remarkable, really.
Quite so but further they allow the narrative to function at all. Its an aspect that enables garnered attention (the function of teasers and hints) and that Camlost and I (and anyone else who cares to join in, if you hover hither) are toying with in Viramsata.
Avoiding the cognitive elements as much as possible, it is the nature of our brains, that allows for readers to work these obliquely disparate experiences together in their imaginations. I write obliquely disparate because you, likely, write with decided flags and greater sufficiency (terms from a TPB blog, essentially, without flags, readers have no reason to question the sufficiency, as is, of their world or perspective) than the reader is exposed to unlike what has happened in Viramsata where, no matter how unrelated the elements are for writers, the readers cannot but help form a conjoining narrative in their imaginations - and my own, which is where the words keep coming from ;).
So you've given us readers some flags, which, like philosophic-flashlights, shine greater and lesser sufficiencies of your world - I made my commentary from the elements you've given us. Martyn and the Opponent necessarily sketch the greatest dimensions, followed by Jerome's World-Slip and meeting the Stranger, the worldwalker. It seems that Lockard's war is a tool in a more dangerous game.
The introduction Ch. 10 and your thoughts here reveal something of novel intent - I'd be forced to make some new guesses based on those words. Few authors aren't trying for the climatic resolution of disparate perspectives in the nested narrative you suggested.Quote from: delavagusSo you're right that, even in Chapter 10, I'm in 'build-up' mode -- but that's because Chapter 10 is the second chapter of Part 2. The entire Part-1 arc has been resolved by then, and the second arc is underway.
+1 Novel Intent. It will be interesting. Big book. I appreciate that immensely. I think writers should be trying to advance the craft, add something new, especially in SFF.
My hazard at obscene dimensions, however, is that THOY, even sketching these greater sufficiencies is only book one of Three Roses!
And I'm especially expecting narrative resolution from take-off to landing now :P.
I'd suspect madness wants a slow burn, but needs to protest it because that just makes it all the more an exquisite torture...
:twisted:
Quote from: MadnessMy hazard at obscene dimensions, however, is that THOY, even sketching these greater sufficiencies is only book one of Three Roses!
On this point: One of the things about Three Roses that sets it apart from many, probably most, fantasy series is that it covers a long period of time. It's not like Robert Jordan's minute-by-minute narrative or the sort of day-by-day-by-day style you often find. In this respect, the book is influenced by much historical fiction. It's this feature of the narrative that facilitates many (but not all) of the 'nested' arcs.(click to show/hide)
Very interesting. As I was tipped off since the first round of commentators on Ch. 1 & 2 preview that the story is closely analogous to real-life history... you're giving us gristles, delavagus.
Lol, keep on trucking :). I'm sure you've done more than enough to convince most Bakker fans to follow your narrative - certainly only one of many fantasy demographics you can leverage.
Lol @ Callan.
Chapter Eleven Excerpt[/b] (http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/stories/three-roses-bk-1-the-house-of-yesteryear-by-roger-e-eichorn/three-roses-bk-1-the-house-of-yesteryear-bonus-scene-2/)
delavagus has a prominent warning within the text but I thought I'd mention Major Spoilers for the initial chapters 1 & 3.
Thanks for the link!Quote from: Madnessdelavagus has a prominent warning within the text but I thought I'd mention Major Spoilers for the initial chapters 1 & 3.
A couple things I think readers should know about the spoilery-ness of Chapter 11:
- Only the very end of the chapter is seriously spoilery, and the spoilery section is separated from the rest by a section break as well as a big fat spoiler alert. I don't want people to be discouraged from reading. (I thought about not including the short last section, which contains the spoiler, but I decided to keep it in there.)
- The major spoiler in Chapter 11 does not spoil the first three chapters, but rather gives away a major event that occurs at the conclusion of Part 1, a few chapters before.
(click to show/hide)
You're right. I've decided the spoiler is just too big, so I've cut the final section, getting rid of the spoiler.
I'm really interested to hear what people think of the (beginning of the) Carverus arc...
Appreciate the spoiler line, Roger!
Just want to make my excuses - it's weird I can read alot of forums sitting up, but I prefer to recline to read fiction and so haven't gotten through the next bit and only read part of it so far. I Hope to fit in reading more and commenting on it soon!
(click to show/hide)
Quote from: MadnessInterestingly enough, Lorenzo and the Dragons (whom I assume are fleshed out in chapters one through nine) are what drew my attention most in chapters ten & eleven.
I don't think this deserves to be hidden as a spoiler, so I've 'decloaked' it.
Anyway, I wanted to mention that, besides a couple brief references, readers did not encounter the Order of Zachariel (the Dragons) prior to Chapter 10. And the introduction of Lorenzo de la Vagus in Chapter 11 marks his first appearance in the book.
Does knowing that make any difference vis-a-vis your thoughts on the excerpts? (One reason I picked those two sections is because they're pretty self-contained; and the reason they're pretty self-contained in that they introduce new stuff into the book and therefore don't presuppose much prior knowledge on the reader's part.)
Lol, cheers, delavagus.
None what so-ever. Ch. 10 is some quality battle fare as is Ch. 11 but Ch. 11 broaches intrigue and fantastical much more specifically.
Also, understanding that these begin Part 2 of Bk. 1, I would seriously wonder at Jerome's tact and anxiety concerning the Dragons, if he, therefore the reader, knows nothing about them - not to ruin surprises but I find it hard to believe that that is literally the first time someone describes the Order of Zachariel (who are I believe are mentioned by name in the early chapter excerpts) as the Dragons.
Small nitpick and, again, you've mentioned that this is a first draft (despite the obvious talent!).
... understanding that these begin Part 2 of Bk. 1, I would seriously wonder at Jerome's tact and anxiety concerning the Dragons, if he, therefore the reader, knows nothing about them - not to ruin surprises but I find it hard to believe that that is literally the first time someone describes the Order of Zachariel (who are I believe are mentioned by name in the early chapter excerpts) as the Dragons.
Why not? If we each buy 200 copies...not bad, i'd say
So, delavagus, i see you are a member here as well, so hopefully you'll see this in time...is there a worldmap? I am a total map-nut and i would love to see a map for this world.
So, delavagus, i see you are a member here as well, so hopefully you'll see this in time...is there a worldmap? I am a total map-nut and i would love to see a map for this world.
Ask and ye shall receive: http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/stories/the-house-of-yesteryear-three-roses-book-one-2/three-roses-maps/
I hope you got my petty notation on Ch. 14, delavagus :).
Tried to read it o my phone but didn't like that media. I'll print it out and read it, hopefully sooner rather than later.
I'm so astonished how effortless pumping out these different versions is for you, delavagus.
Liked it a lot, again. Glad to hear that the previous opening with the sidereas game will be used for Bk2. Just curious if that actually means book 2 in this trilogy/duology, or rather the 2nd section of this first book.
More books is music to my ears! Who can argue with a sex-ology. Thanks for taking the time to answer questions!Liked it a lot, again. Glad to hear that the previous opening with the sidereas game will be used for Bk2. Just curious if that actually means book 2 in this trilogy/duology, or rather the 2nd section of this first book.
Thanks for reading! For a long time I imagined Three Roses as a trilogy of door-stoppers. Last year, or the year before, I decided the story was better off as six reasonably sized books. So it's a sex-ology? Awesome.
I do still plan on using the sidereas game as the opening for Book 2, as in the second book of the series.
Anyone who's WordPress-savvy and wants to make recommendations for formatting my blog, let me know. My patience runs out quick when I try to do shit like that...The blog is fine, I just don't like reading on my phone, or a screen at all if I can avoid it. Much better for me to read it on paper. Smaller things, like forum posts or blog posts are fine, but this is some 30 pages... I don't think so. I've got it printed, so I'll probably get to it once I finish The Wise Man's Fear, as I'm nearing the end and tend to engage better with stories one at a time.
The blog is fine, I just don't like reading on my phone, or a screen at all if I can avoid it. Much better for me to read it on paper.
Anyone who's WordPress-savvy and wants to make recommendations for formatting my blog, let me know. My patience runs out quick when I try to do shit like that...
The blog is fine, I just don't like reading on my phone, or a screen at all if I can avoid it. Much better for me to read it on paper.
I've been meaning to say that anyone forum regulars who want .pdf's of my chapters, I'd be happy to send them. Much easier that way, if you're going to print them out. Let me know.
EDIT: Where the hell does the expression "betters" come from to mean those better than you?
I want to read the rest now :)
I haven't read anything from you in the past, so you and I haven't done this yet.
I'm not sure I fully understand his motivation to find out what happens next. Topically, it makes sense, why wouldn't you want to find out your fate? But, after thinking on it, since its not his timeline, its not so much as 'him' as it is someone else, and the drive to see that vision to its end seems less compelling...