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except the reader is never meant to relate with cnaiur, or rather with anyone other character besides maybe akka.

Actually, I'd say the reader is meant to relate to Kellhus, who is written as a deliberate Mary Sue (with the intent of fulfilling and subverting this common characteristic of genre protagonists), than any other character.

And Wilshire completely missed my point.  I was using substitution. I didn't say A Song of Ice and Fire because only a handful of readers know that.  I used Game of Thrones because that's the name of the series for millions. I used Game of Thrones because it's become convenient shorthand for "epic fantasy" without the negative associations that come with using the word fantasy.  And using Game of Thrones conveys that something is contemporary, gritty, dynamic and set in another world.  Substitution allows one to imply positive associations while avoiding those negative associations. 

But I do find it interesting how insistent everyone is that the first thing to talk about is the rape in the novels.  It reminds me of the reception of the movie Deliverance.  That movie is known for it's rape, but the rape is only about a minute of a two hour movie, but it's anyone can talk about because it is such a 'violation' to show it as that movie does (or as these books do).  if you're trying to disseminate the series, you don't start recruitment with a topic that almost everyone has an aversion to encountering (I change the channel when the news comes up on a rape or murder story).

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It was a joke, I got the point and I thought it was a good idea. Using a popular book in the same genre is something that would make a person more likely to try it out. I was just applying that logic in a silly way.


And yeah, I agree about the insistence of rape being a central theme. It happens, yes, but thats not what the series is about. Just because its in the books, doesnt mean you are ok with it or that you endorse it. I thought Django was a pretty good movie but I didn't feel left out because slavery was abolished and I can't own me a few slaves.

Typically, when trying to sell a product, its decidedly more difficult to do so by pointing out all the things that you think are wrong with it.

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I just can't recommend it unless the person I'm talking to is what I would class as an advanced reader. 
Pretty much for the same reasons SATXZ outlines above.

Chapter one; child gets orphaned, then raped, then murders the dude who bummed him.
Someone who thought Harry Potter was pretty edgy and hard done by 'cause he was forced to have a cupboard as a bedroom is probably gunna struggle right there.

Spot on, exactly what I was saying.
I'm not some "fat prude", I really like the series.  I own two copies of everything in print.  Just my opinion, if you skip every esmi chapter then this series its the best thing out there.
But let's not kid ourselves.  Shitting on religion and having child rape in chapter one, book one will never get you a series on TV. Ever.  Also, you'll never have an asoiaf sized fan base.  And for the record, deviantart is ducking awesome.  Hating everything on the inter webz doesn't make you cool, it makes you trendy.

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Chapter one; child gets orphaned, then raped, then murders the dude who bummed him.

Acrackedmoon/Requires only hate didn't get past that, for example. >

I think pitch it more as an educative text. It's entirely valid for a text to cover adult issues - the only problem is the assumption on someone elses part that when they read fantasy that it wont involve adult issues. Bit of advance notice and it should be fine - assuming they can handle adult issues.

I will say though that most of the atrocities in the series - well, in other (thick) books they could be the lone subject. In most other books, they'd take one atrocity and make it the focus of the entire book. If a rape occurs, for example, the tradition is the entire book deals with that one rape. Then again, I don't really read books like that myself.

Also, you'll never have an asoiaf sized fan base.

Lose the message and you wont have a soul. Which is worse?

Heh - almost feels like the eighties again, this decade - not having the fan base is worse, of course!

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Well like Bakker said, he'd rather be rich than ugly.

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ROH went in primed to be upset by the book's use of rape though.  As far as rapes in the novel, the chapter one rape is the most offscreen of them all.

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Fan bois always see an insult in every message.
Twilight. Huge fan base, got the author rich.  That's the sort of writing the majority loves and pays for.  At the same time, what gives us the right to judge them negatively because they would never be interested in bakkers books for the exact reasons I've previously given.

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Oh, I'd imagine some, perhaps 10% (perhaps more!) would be interested in Bakker. Just because you enjoy a fast food burger, doesn't mean you can't appreciate...a more complicated meal.

But yeah, I'd estimate were dealing in margins of other audiences. Cross road people.

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it's very flattering to view the readers of this forum as belonging to some elite, and to postulate that only other elites can 'get it' I don't think that's really very true, even if it makes us feel good.  The books are not opaque and inaccessible, they're not directed at marginal audiences but mass audiences.  Why else repurpose the ontological structures of so many classic genre works (Dune, Lord of the Rings, The Bible etc)?

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for some reason I didn't even think the boy gets raped in the prologue. but then again this is Bakker we're talking about soooo

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I'd have to disagree. The books are inaccessible, thus why the fan base is so small. Then again, maybe its just poorly written and popularity is strictly about how good the author is at writing and has nothing to do with the subject of the text.

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We'll all look at this thread in 20 years from now on our Google Mind 5.0 and laugh

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I'm a dedicated Normie, Ajokli . Practice is my augmentation.

Bakker seems to be looking to engage a mass readership but certainly not to appease them. Fiction is far more persuasive than non-fiction, unfortunately. And Bakker is consciously manipulating his readers.

Again, I started this thread (and this forum) to cultivate the cycle, which hopefully yields Bakker more money and facilitates more novel words from him for us.

lockesnow, I can certainly respect the grasp members (specifically, Old Names) have on this series. I certainly don't consider myself "elite," however, I do realize that the intellectual capacity of some members here, by the draw of intelligence (or inaccessibility) of Bakker's writings, far outstrips my own or that which I find elsewhere - like the academic institutions we partake in - and I have an opportunity to learn from this... "elite" wisdom.

I think there's inherent prejudice at work here (on no one's part specifically, perhaps, in the simple assumption that those who've been posting in the past 10 months are viciously inclusive or something?) - this place is about the expansion of our selves and our community, no one knows it all, as is obviously apparent, in the diverse knowledge sets brought to bear as speculative comparison.

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By no means did I intend my classification of 'advanced readers' as being elitist.  A simple generalization drawn from my experience handing out recommendations for this and other works.

Offering some examples;
If I'm discussing reading materials with someone and they engage with the world-building, themes and genre tropes displayed in Dune I would probably recommend TSA.
OTOH if it is someone who has read WoT and mainly talks about the action and characters being original and amazing, I'm inclined to steer them to something else like Robin Hobb or GRRM if they want recommendations.
Generally the former example is someone who has read a lot more stuff and formed an individual critical language - it's a smaller and more refined group, yes, but I don't think it's elite or inherently better.  Just a question of time investment and interest leading to different preferences. 

I don't think Bakker particulary appeals to people who aren't interested in at least some of the extra interpretive challenges he weaves into his writing.  Even amongst his fans there is a strong element of people who wish he would include more simplified and likable characters, for instance.  OTOH I suspect the intricacy of the world building strongly appeals to those who enjoy digging deeper in epic fantasy.

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I'm a dedicated Normie, Ajokli . Practice is my augmentation.

There's an app for that.