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The Unholy Consult / Re: Rereading again, new insights again
« Last post by H on January 24, 2022, 07:29:48 pm »
About chapter 15:
The tunnels under Kyudea and Ishuäl are referred to as similar in architecture, and then as Nonman work.
For Kyudea it is confirmed to be Nonman architecture. I can't remember: Do we know this to be the case for Ishuäl as well?

We don't know it for sure, but I think it is fair the read it in, since Ishuäl is an Ihrimsû name, meaning "Exalted Grotto."  Seems likely to me that the Kûniüric High Kings learned of it somehow, likely after it had ben abandoned by the Nonmen and then used it for their own purposes.  Meaning, of course, that the Thousand Thousand Halls were carved with some Nonman purpose, the Dûnyain only later found their own use for them.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: Rereading again, new insights again
« Last post by Monkhound on January 20, 2022, 07:07:43 pm »
TTT starts with full force in the quote and the Dream where Mekeritrig tortures Seswatha:
Quote from: chapter 1
"To understand the soul of a Nonman, the philosopher Gotagga had once written, one need only bare the back of an old and arrogant slave. Scars. Scars upon scars. This was what made them mad. All of them."
[...]
"I will strip you to your footings", the Nonman grated. "Though I love,  I will upend your souls foundation! I will release you from the delusions of this word 'Man', and draw forth the beat - the soulless beast! - that is the howling Truth of all things..."
First the parallel with Cnaiür's scars and madness, of course. With that, does it somewhat insinuate that killing chips away at your sanity?
Secondly the illustration that if you take away one's humanity, a human is no different from a sranc?

The first passage that Esmenet reads from the Sagas. I'm pretty sure that I remember it being sung by the Nonman on the elevator in Ishterebinth, in TGO:
Quote from: chapter 8
"Rage - Goddess! Sing of your flight,
From our fathers and our sons.
Away, Goddess! Secret your divinity!
From the conceit that makes kings of foods,
From the scrutiny that makes corpses of souls.
Sing us the end of your song. "

Conphas thinking before being brutalized by Cnaiür:
Quote from: chapter 9
"Where the Nansur wheedled and negotiated, the Scylvendi simply took - seized. It was as though they had embraced violence as a whole, while the Nansur had shattered it into a thousand pieces to set as splinters across the multiform mosaic of their society.
It made them seem... more manly."
Again, the shattering of a "one into thousand" symbolism.

Quote from: chapter 12
"Only when things were broken did their meaning become clear. "
This one struck me particularly with respect to the whole brutality that is inflicted on the Scalded in TUC.
At the same time, do I note aparallel between "meaning" and "Truth" in this? Both concepts are flung around a lot in this book. Only when a Truth or a meaning is broken, do we understand what it actually meant.

About chapter 15:
The tunnels under Kyudea and Ishuäl are referred to as similar in architecture, and then as Nonman work.
For Kyudea it is confirmed to be Nonman architecture. I can't remember: Do we know this to be the case for Ishuäl as well?
Is the whole Sorweel in the Ishterebinth underground meant to help understand the whole Dunyain journey here, with both Kellhus and the Siqu looking for their father?
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General Earwa / Re: On the Nature of the No-God
« Last post by H on January 05, 2022, 02:30:49 pm »
I realize that I tend to drop what are essentially non-sequiturs here, but as a disorganized mind as mine is, that is the best I can do at the moment.  I came across this though:

Quote
But in the second place, “the concept does not only have being within itself implicitly – it is not merely that we have this insight but that the concept is also being explicitly. It sublates its subjectivity itself and objectifies itself. Human beings realize their purposes, i.e., what was at first only ideal is stripped of its one-sidedness and thereby made into a subsisting being. … When we look closely at the nature of the concept, we see that its identity with being is no longer a presupposition but a result. What happens is that the concept objectifies itself, makes itself reality and thus becomes the truth, the unity of subject and object” (LPR 3:356). The concept, like the human “I,” is alive and active; its activity can be called a drive, and every satisfaction of a drive is a sublation of the subjective and a positing of the objective (LPR 1:438–439)

LPR refers to Hegels Lectures on the Philosophy of Religion.  Of course, I am linking this, in my mind, to what the Dunsult tell us about how the No-God is, to them, the Absolute, a unity of Subject and Object.  In Hegel's terms, this seems to mean it would be Pure Being, which might be a hint as to why it invalidates the Outside and so sin.  That is, in Pure, Immediate Being, meaning is also Immediate.  There is no mediating term of an Eternal perspective.  Everything simply is what it is, there is never any true Becoming, it is all just Material doing whatever it is that Material does.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: Rereading again, new insights again
« Last post by Wilshire on December 13, 2021, 03:41:47 pm »
One of the best things about TSA is the foreshadowing. Whether intentional or not by Bakker, its these little moments, like those you highlighted, that make the entire series feel like it was fully developed prior to being written. There are discontinuities and/or reversals that prove this isn't the case, but at the very least many specific events past/future are linked together beautifully.

Saubon selling his soul to be king for a day is fantastic, especially because its so literal. He is hardly a sovereign King for more than a few days before becoming part of Kellhus' Empire, and he does end up damned (though this is a fate that basically everyone shares). Fantastic stuff like this is what makes the series worth reading and rereading, over and over.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: Rereading again, new insights again
« Last post by Monkhound on December 13, 2021, 10:17:40 am »
I'm not a slow reader but still it took a while to get through TWP again due to life getting in the way  :)

Chapter 6 had some funky references during the Battle of Mengedda:
Quote from: Chapter 6
Now the wind came from the east, and men swore they could smell the sea.
Mengedda being quite far inland, it gave me a flashbacks to the Battle of Dagliash, though that could be because of the "Saubon dying" passage in the same chapter.

Quote from: Chapter 6
And when the day is done,
In our eyes the Gods shall lurk!
These two lines of the chant that the Inrithi sing during the battle struck me as a weird parallel to the "What do you see?" passages that we get from Akka's dreams by the thousands of sranc. The parallel being "After we have killed, the (No-)God will be able to see what we have done (and reward us?)".

Another passage that especially struck me was the one in chapter 17. where Kellhus finally breaks Esmenet, using a repetition of words that we encounter later in TGO in the passage of Koringhus's "cuts and cuts and cuts" revelation:
Quote from: Chapter 17,  The words in bold are mine
"You break and remake, cut and cut and cut, all so you might answer in you conqueror's tongue!"
[...]
"And you tell yourself", Kellhus continued, "'These tracks I will not follow!', Perhaps you refuse certain perversity. You pretend to scruple, to discriminate, though the world has forced you onto trackless ground."
[...]
"'What love lies beyond sacrifice?'"

Though worded slightly different, I encountered the same explanation a few chapters later, when Cnaïur finally understands how Moënghus and Kellhus have controlled him all along:
Quote from: Chapter 24,  The words in bold are mine
He was bound to the Dûnyain as the Dûnyain was bound to Serwë's corpse - bound by the cutting ropes of an unconquerable hate.
Any shame. Any indignity. He would bear any injury, commit any atrocity, to whet his vengeance. He would see the whole world burn before he would surrender his hate. Hate!
[...]
Hatred, and hatred alone, had kept him sane.
Just like Esmenet, Cnaiür has been chipping/ cutting away at himself to fit his view on the world, and to soothe his own mind. In the case of Cnaiür, these cuts seem to be both physical and mental, with him scarring himself with his swazond to pove the point of his hatred... Which in turn gives an extra dimension to Mimara's Judging Eye vision about him later in TGO. I'm currently under the impression that, especially given how we see Kellhus's deduction at work, the Dûyain see the cuts that people made in reverse, since we get a similar deduction described again when Koringhus has his Zero-God revelation.

With the knowledge of the description of Saubon's death in TGO, there is the fun passage in TWP where he calls for his own damnation:
Quote from: Chapter
[Saubon:] "Then fie on it! Fie on the truth!"
[Kellhus:] "And what of your immortal soul?"
"Then let it be damned!" he roared, leaping to his feet. "I embrace it - embace it all! Damnation in this life! Damnation in all others! Torment heaped upon torment! I would bear all to be King for a day! I would see you broken and blooded if that meant I could own this throne! I would see the God's own eyes plucked out!

Finally, chapter 23 has the passage where Kellhus has his revelation:
Quote from: Chapter 23
And upon it two silhouettes, black against clouds of stars, impossibly bright.
The figure of a man seated, shoulders crouched like an ape, legs crossed like a priest.
I remember a similar passage (in TGO, I think? Or maybe in TWLW) where Kellhus encounters people with animal features. Did we get an explanation about that somewhere, or is it simply his madness that is leaking through?

I know there are supposed to be parallels between TPN and TAE, and I'm still amazed at how Bakker pulled it off  ;D.

Going to pick up TTT again next of course, and I'll share the things that stood out to me, with the knowledge of how TAE ends.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: Do Dragons descended from Wutteat Comprehend Paradox?
« Last post by Wilshire on October 18, 2021, 04:49:45 pm »
I actually don't think I ever really thought about the Inchoroi bringing out old weapons race from previous planets and unleashing them on Earwa. So when Wutteat talked about traveling through the void I just assumed that meant they found him out there and let him tag along for some reason.

However with that now under consideration, it seems more likely he was created - just a much older creation than anything else they unleased on Earwa.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: Do Dragons descended from Wutteat Comprehend Paradox?
« Last post by H on October 15, 2021, 08:34:25 pm »
Yeah, I mean it's ambiguous.  In fact, I think I want to revise my position.  It probably makes a bit more sense to me now if Wutteät is another Ark-made thing.  Post-Fall though they don't have Ark to guide the development and can only work from the existing Wutteät pattern.  I'd still guess Wracu have souls though, even as derivative as likely they are.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: Do Dragons descended from Wutteat Comprehend Paradox?
« Last post by SmilerLoki on October 15, 2021, 08:18:52 pm »
Wutteat says something about traviling through the void through the ages, maybe even many worlds, so its at least somewhat supported by the text, rather than "one persons' head canon".
Aurang uses the same terminology in regards to traveling on the Ark and the Inchoroi's many genocides, so that's not in favor of Wutteat being some kind of unique space dragon - just another creature of the Ark.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: Do Dragons descended from Wutteat Comprehend Paradox?
« Last post by Wilshire on October 15, 2021, 11:52:07 am »
Its vague, but the general consensus is Wutteat was found in space. I believe the books are more clear that Wutteat is the template that the Earwa inchoroi used to create the Wracu.
I wouldn't call it consensus - it's so far one person's head canon, which other people seemed to for some reason accept without further examination.

Wutteat says something about traveling through the void through the ages, maybe even many worlds, so its at least somewhat supported by the text, rather than "one persons' head canon".

All this to say, Wracu very much fit into the standard Weapon Race role. They aren't exceptional, other than their physical variation. I see no significant reasons for why they should have special rules.
It's more that Bakker's comments seem to imply that - he outright states that Wracu have souls, that they have metaphysical interaction with Chorae, that their fire is neither sorcerous nor mundane, that they might be living topoi, etc.

I'm always of the opinion that Bakker's comments aren't particularly reliable or even generally useful. If its not in the books, and we've got 7, then its speculation. Interesting topics for conversation maybe, to try and fit what he says into the books, but hardly evidence imo.
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The Unholy Consult / Re: Do Dragons descended from Wutteat Comprehend Paradox?
« Last post by H on October 13, 2021, 04:54:30 pm »
Sranc aren't as senseless as you seem to think though. For example, they have language, culture, complex social structures. They also are used as Elju for Nonmen, which indicates a huge capacity for not just memory and recall, but also communication.

Unfortunately, we just don't have enough information one way or the other.  The way Skrafa talks, seems to imply to me he "gets it" and might comprehend paradox, but never explicitly says it.  That Wutteät like does have a soul tells us little to nothing, since the other Wracu are clearly derivative of him, meaning we have no idea what aspects might be passed on or not.

In Eärwa I think a soul is very tied to Heideggerian Dasein, that is, Being-there.  What does this mean?  It is Being for something for which the question of Being has Meaning.  Sranc certainly have language and so they likely understand Being to some degree, but for whatever reason, they do not comprehend the question of Being.  That is, there is no Meaning to Being, it just simply is.  Skin-spies seem about the same, they comprehend that they have Being (that is, that they exist) but they do not question the nature of this Being and when asked, (to unravel the paradoxical nature of Being that would always ceding to Becoming) they cannot comprehend it.

So we are just left to guess how much of Wutteät the Wracu are.  The answer is really anything you want though, there is no evidence one way or the other.  There also is no logic, Eärwan biology is somewhat like the real world, but ultimately not.  Wracu could have any number of souls, from zero to plus or minus infinity, despite, or in light, of that making no sense whatsoever.
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