The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The White-Luck Warrior => Topic started by: SilentRoamer on August 02, 2014, 12:09:34 am
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Ok so does anyone think that Titirga has any future role to play in the series?
I think it's Garet who has a theory that Meppa=Titirga?
Maybe TSTSNBN is Returnof Titirgaand hence Bakker doesn't want to ruin his return? lol
What say all?
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Probably not. Would be odd to include a character from a separate short story (set 2000 years before) who was never even mentioned in the main narrative.
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I think Titirga will play a future role in the audience's understanding of the greater story/world/metaphysics..
Now, Titirga is a serious contender for my top five favorite characters from the series, and that's from a single appearance in a short story, compared to characters we've followed over five full-length novels. I just think his execution is absolutely flawless. The False Sun's protagonist is really Shaeonanra, but as readers of the series we know too much of him to perceive the man as "good". This is Shauriatas, the Grandmaster of the Consult, the most evil fucks imaginable. Titirga, on the other hand, is presented in a largely positive sense. He's intelligent, charming, pragmatic, and ultimately just kinda badass. He's a Gnostic sorcerer, which we associate with the Mandate and Seswatha, and the Mandate are a rather sympathetic faction considering the moral grayness of the series. However, in terms of the structure of TFS itself, Titirga is really the antagonist. But through the prose, the character is described with such clarity and imbued with a sense of total badassery (the references to him seeming like a stone, something impermeable, almost immortal), that the audience is still held in suspense even after fucking Aurang rolls in. Imagine never seeing an Inchoroi in your entire life, nothing even remotely like it, only for one to stroll up out of nowhere, possessing a ridiculously deep Mark.
Titirga's response to this is a dick joke.
Aside from fanboying over Titirga, my ultimate point is that, no, I don't think he has a future role to play in the sense of still being alive in some fashion, be it physically or spiritually or whatever. I think he's dead and gone. The protagonist Shae (and kinda Aurang) defeat the antagonist Titiriga. However, I do think the character of Titiriga itself, beyond his functionary role in the story mechanics of TFS, is a very important piece to a puzzle that we do not yet possess all the pieces to. But once we do, Titiriga and his characterization (particularly his history of blindness, the "scrubbed" look of his Mark -- which should be intensely ugly, considering his power -- and the whole "grasping of words and meanings that should not be grasped" thing) will all be very relevant. To be honest, as much as I love the character, I kind of like him as being a one-off thing.
And as a nerdanel for the fuck of it: I believe that Titirga possessed, to some degree, both the Meta-Gnosis and the Psukhe, and that this combination of magics will become pivotal to Kellhus's later plans, whatever they are (I'm convinced he will learn the Psukhe eventually, if he hasn't already...another reason we haven't seen his Mark?).
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Probably not. Would be odd to include a character from a separate short story (set 2000 years before) who was never even mentioned in the main narrative.
I agree that it would be odd, and yet as I read The False Sun I couldn't help but feel that we must be getting something relevant for the whole series beyond just the sneak peak at the Consult. And I'd agree with Francis that perhaps it's something about Titirga's vaguely mentioned powers like having a different mark and grasping things that should not be grasped. Or his background at having been blind.
Shit, have we talked about how he regained his sight? I don't recall, but it seems like he must have, right? What happens if one grasps the Psukhe while blind but recovers one's sight? Can they still access it from their recollection of what it had been like?
I also confess to contemplating that after the trap in False Sun that they Consult somehow preserved Titirga to make him into the No-God, but I have no actual working theory to explain this.
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I feel like Titirga's meeting with Shae was a precursor to Kellhus' meeting with the Consult. Titirga was considered the most powerful insinger of his day, just as Kellhus is considered the most powerful of the current day. Titirga seriously underestimated Shae, and I think Kel has, too. TUC will be all about the Aspect-Emperor getting his ass handed to him by the Consult, IMO. It's theory (Kellhus) vs. experience (Consult). The Consult are going to take him back to school. Hard. That was the lesson of Titirga. Prediction made. ;)
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It might be that the real reason Seswatha waged war against the Consult was to avenge Titirga. In Eleazaras fashion.
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I don't think the character will come back but the significance of what happened in the False Sun might have further implications beyond introducing a mangeacca POV and shedding light on the early days. I assume there was something incredibly important they absolutely needed to warrant the risk of deceiving Titirga. The False Sun itself might tie somehow into the Inchoroi "weapons of light" which were reportedly depleted after the Cuno-Inchoroi wars.
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Interesting point about the False Sun itself being pivotal. Maybe the Ancient North and/or the Sohonc (and possibly, as-yet-to-be-revealed, the Nonmen...and maybe even the Dunyain) had began picking away at the very basics of more advanced technology (I.E. early Tekne), and this was viewed by the Consult as a threat. The biggest advantage the Consult have is the Tekne. It gave them their armies, their weapons, the No-God, the Heron Spear, and probably the Inverse Fire. If the enemy were to obtain such power, or even grasp the base tenets of it (which is just the Scientific Method, really), then the Consult could lose their advantage.
Hell, the Tekne was really the only thing that let the Consult achieve ANYTHING so far, and they still got stomped by the Quya. Now the Consult has both...and that's obviously key, since the capability of magic on Earwa is what allowed the Consult to create the No-God in the first place.
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@ SilentRoamer - I don't think he has a role to play in the main series, but I really hope Bakker does more with him in other Atrocity Tales. To me, he seems to be present to shed light on the Consult, in the False Sun, and not much else. Leave it to Bakker to introduce and kill off a beloved character right away. :(
@ Francis Buck - That's an awesome interpretation--I have to agree with you in the sense that I think Titirga gives/will give the more interested more. Like Silmarillion for Tolkien geeks.
@ Triskele - Goddamnit, I never thought about his regaining sight as significant, but the whole thing could be a goddamn set up. Fuck!
@ Somnambulist - I like that reading…but I think they'll both have tricks up their sleeves for each other. Both sides anticipating anticipations, wheels within wheels.
@ Ashtinahgma - WOW It's 1000 years later tho, init?
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I think Titirga was conceived as a overpowered sorcerer - someone that could destroy the grandmaster of the Mangeacca and the Inchie brothers.
Even so, he is also equipped with an artifact that presumably empowers him even more.
His character's power is primarily set-up for this window into the early machinations of the Consult and how Meketrig and Shae pierced the barricades.
Thus the lure and triggering of the trap, elements of the story that underscore Shaeonanra's subtle and devious intelligence.
Bakker gives us a subtle clue beyond the mere efficacy of chorae on the nature of sorcery (Titirga's powers are a nod to the interconnected nature of the psukhe, gnosis and anagogic sorcery), at the same time as establishing why the newly forged consult fear this man and must remove him from the Benjuka plate.
Beyond the extra worldbuilding, I doubt it is any more relevant than Four Relevations.
Also, False Sun opens in 1119 (Year of the Tusk) - whilst Seswatha lived 2089-2168.
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Could you say more about this?
Bakker gives us a subtle clue beyond the mere efficacy of chorae
What you said here perfectly summed it up:
Titirga's powers are a nod to the interconnected nature of the psukhe, gnosis and anagogic sorcery
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And as a nerdanel for the fuck of it: I believe that Titirga possessed, to some degree, both the Meta-Gnosis and the Psukhe, and that this combination of magics will become pivotal to Kellhus's later plans, whatever they are (I'm convinced he will learn the Psukhe eventually, if he hasn't already...another reason we haven't seen his Mark?).
Even if Kellhus could learn the Psukhe (which would require seeking out one of the few Cishaurim that survived Shimeh, at a time when he's busy conquering and consolidating his new Empire. The Cishaurim of course will hate him as the false heathen prophet that conquered one of the most important cities from the children of Fane and will have to spend a lot of time with Kellhus to be possessed. This will also have to be kept secret from all his men of the Tusk, who would not understand) and wanted to use it despite it, in virtually every respect but stealth, being inferior to the Gnosis, he still has to get past the fact that he's been raised as a Dunyain. Through breeding and conditioning, his emotions are utterly stunted. According to Kellhus himself, he would make a very weak bearer of the Water. I doubt he would consider it worth it.
Of course it's entirely possible (and I believe, likely) that Kellhus was wrong in his theories of how the Psukhe worked and that Moenghus was actually quite powerful (perhaps through overcoming his relative lack of passion with Dunyain instilled purity of control of the self, if the theory that the Psukhe's dual components are a thought inutterable and a subconscious felt unutterable is correct). But Kellhus does not believe that. If he did, then he would have to re-evaluate every piece of the ground he stood upon when he judged it best to end Moenghus, and consequently, much of his actions since.
Although maybe he's done that since the end of Thousandfold Thought. It's been 20 years. And no doubt Maithanet would have much light to shed on his father...
Well, that's enough rambling.
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As for Titirga, I think he's done. RIP 1119 is a long time to be dead. His life is important to the story, potentially hugely important, but I don't think he'll have much of a role to play.
Kellhus + psuke, maybe, but depends on the actually metaphysics of it. If you think MIALLTL (moenghus is a lying liar that lies), then sure its possible, though I still think its unlikely. Psuke is too much of a deus ex machina, and was extinguished to prevent the author to be tempted to solve issues in a cheesy manor.
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Psuke is too much of a deus ex machina, and was extinguished to prevent the author to be tempted to solve issues in a cheesy manor.
But then why bring it back? Especially in a way that seems like it was planned?
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Forgot about meppa... I guess having 1 Cish with no memory who is basically just blindly following is one thing, and a super-dunyain something completely different. Meppa, as far as story goes, can be controlled, while having Puskari running amok would have vastly different implications.
Another explanation I can come up with is the WLW problem. Once you create something that cannot be defeated, a prescient warrior that is ordained by the most power God, something needs to contend with it. Even Kellhus, with all his plans and intellect, predicts possibilities, not certainties. He would likely lose in a battle against the WLW on a battlefield chosen by Yatwer. However, Meppa is potentially the only blind spot WLW might have, though that is a pretty big leap of faith. If the Puske is truly "indistinguishable from the God's own works", then maybe he could step into the blind spot of the being which sees all things...
But the point being that a single Psukari is easier to deal with than an entire school of invisible schoolmen who could potentially be casting unseen sorceries on literally all aspects of the story, people, places, even internal feelings/thoughts. To me, the story would be vastly cheapened by reveals akin to "Moe/Cish are behind everything because no one can detect them".
They are important to the story, but potentially too powerful. Why bring it back? Because doing so in a controlled way adds a lot of depth, and gives us a chance for explanations of many things, but leaving it as-is pre-TTT would have been too much.
These are just my thoughts though. I'm sure Bakker is far more tactful than I could imagine and if Moe/Cish still have a major role to play then it will be done well, sans the cheese.
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The White Luck Warrior could only be defeated by someone trapped in linear time within the world by somehow directing its path of actions through the path of actions determined by the actions of the No-God or Inchoroi weapon races, since they are soulless and invisible to the Gods.
Kellhus personally being with the Great Ordeal makes him safer from the White Luck than he'd ever be in the Empire.
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I mostly, but was suggesting, more or less, that the Psuke is equally invisible to the gods and would function similarly to NG/Weapon-races.Therefore, his path was chosen by Kellhus/Other to intercept WLW by establishing the events we have seen that have led Fanayal to Momemn.
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Ah but the other actions of humans that don't mark the onta are all visible to the Gods. The important thing is that a soul be involved. They can see you chop down a tree with an axe just as easily as blow it up with the Gnosis.
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The White Luck Warrior could only be defeated by someone trapped in linear time within the world by somehow directing its path of actions through the path of actions determined by the actions of the No-God or Inchoroi weapon races, since they are soulless and invisible to the Gods.
Kellhus personally being with the Great Ordeal makes him safer from the White Luck than he'd ever be in the Empire.
Wow, I'd never thought of that! Do you think Kellhus' end goal is to lock himself in the Ark? Away from the WLW? With the meta-gnosis, he might be able to seal it up even better than the first time. Metal not of this world in some erie sense. Lots o topoi. Maybe a good place to avoid a WLW.
Just saying that makes me wonder if other characters from the First Apocalypse were WLW. Like Nau-Kayuti: the gods use him to get the Heron Spear (which would clash with above) then have no use for him. Or Anaxophus, the WLW to kill Mog or whoever is wearing the Mog suit?
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Ah but the other actions of humans that don't mark the onta are all visible to the Gods. The important thing is that a soul be involved. They can see you chop down a tree with an axe just as easily as blow it up with the Gnosis.
Specifically, the Gods cannot see an intellect without a soul.
But I disagree, since the tree was simply always blown over, as this is how the God made it. The reader knows the tree was up, then pushed down by the Psuke, but to a being falsely convinced of its own omnipotence, the tree was always down. It wouldn't be able to recognize the inconsistency, for that would mean it was wrong, which is impossible.
The WLW's vision would be altered without him, or Yatwer, even realizing it. His life ending because thats how it always was. The WLW POV, and his certainty, would remain even if he died. If given a postmortem view, he would say he always saw his death coming, this it already happened, long before he got to Kellhus. Only the reader would know this to be a lie.
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hm, how is it we know anything is blind to the gods? could be a pack of lies! maybe their in on this no-god thing, yatwer certainly seems to want to help the consult
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Wanting to help the Consult and wanting to destroy Kellhus are not the same thing. I'd say Yatwer, the god of Birth, would be the last one that would want to help the Consult, but many of the others might want to... War, Famine, Disease/Pestilence, and Deceit are all contenders.
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i don't know, bakker's going to flip the world over some way, somehow, i don't remember any q&a directly with the gods, it would smash our notion of things
the gods created the inchoroi and sent them to earwa to shut the world from the outside--maybe they're tired of being gods, or they'll be more free cut off from maximal objectivity, or it's some ploy of the hundred or a faction of it to hurt other gods or the god of gods...anyways, the inchoroi are treated the same way conphas treats biaxi sompas, they are told that they must succeed in cutting off the world or they will burn, all of them
for all i know yatwer is overseeing all kinds of birth in the outside and could stand to lose the last bottommost, low-brow level of reality
hey wouldn't it be neat if there are chorae in outside level 1 that negate interruptions from level 2 and above & level 2 has chorae against level 3 and up and so on