Edit:
Revising the preface of this.
Discussion of Frank Herbert's Dune Saga. This is Dune, Dune Messiah, Children of Dune, God Emperor of Dune, Heretics of Dune,and Chapterhouse: Dune.
If you haven't read these, be warned that there will be major spoilers, and likely none of them will be tagged.
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Anyways. I've seen mentions of parallels and similarities between the two mentioned here, and even that Bakker drew some of his ideas from the series. If anyone would care to expand on what they see between the books and authors I'd like to read it. Some of you are so much more, shall we say, literarilly inclined than myself. (yup made up that word)
But as for me, some obvious things jump out. The Mentat and their absurd computational abilities as well as the Bene Gesserit and their galactic breeding program. The Kwisatz Haderach and his abilities.
All these things remind me of the Dunyain. They are basically the Mentat and the BG combined. Their Kwisatz Haderach the one who first obtains The Absolute, or maybe its Kell (again coming before his time like Dune) who is the prodigal dunyain.
Then we have Qirri: "The poison that made strong" WLW 429. Qirri and the spice melange. Both addictive, both shrouded in mystery. Perhaps the qirri doesn't give prescience, but maybe it does. As the space navigators can see glimpses, perhaps mundane humans just get some of the fringe benefits but not all. The actual affects of the qirri on a Nonmen or a dunyain is largely unknown, who knows, perhaps it could grant some prescient visions.
On that subject, the way the future is portrayed in visions. Kell sees paths of probabilities and is largely able to control what lines of logic he follows into the future. Our Kwisatz Haderach can only just barely grasp the future and its implications, and he is more just looking at visions of different futures rather than following specific paths. However the TTT and the 'nexuses' that the Kwisatz Haderach cannot see through are similar. They are both large pools of cosmic forces all condensed into a small point, where small, minute varations in paths lead to drastically different futures.
Then of course the obvious parallel of the face dancers, which I have only just met and not much for to say on that subject.
Made me think of something interesting, near the end.
Paul can't see others with prescience. He can see the effects, where the person went and where they may end up, but never the person directly. Could this be the case in TSA series?
Perhaps the gods have similar visions of the timeline, like Paul's. They exist outside of the timeline entirely, but maybe those with similar 'powers' are invisible to them. Obviously the No-God, if it was some kind of god figure, would then be rendered invisible. How about Kell? Could Kell be similar to the space guild navigators in that he has a limited 'power' and is therefore himself invisible, but at the same time much more easily seen the the No-God. Paul never saw the other Kwisatz Haderach revealed at the end. Maybe this was because Paul was still not adept at using his powers, but he can see the effects of the guilds men rather plainly, so perhaps it was because (to make a lame analogy) they had such similar power levels that they were both invisible.
On the old Three Seas forum, I came down on Dune like the proverbial ton of bricks. In the end I had to admit I went too far and was being too harsh. All the same I stand by my opinion: compared to Bakker's Second Apocalypse, Dune is an amateurish work. Granted Herbert had all these great ideas (the rise of a prophet who can see the future, face dancers, Bene Gesserit, etc.), but when you compare these to their counterpart in the Second Apocalypse, they appear woefully underdeveloped and poorly thought out. It's like comparing a few pieces of raw meat and uncooked vegetables with a sumptuous feast. And certainly there is no comparison when it comes to the philosophical depth between the two works.
p.s.: just as a background, I read the first Dune book with some interest (but growing dismay); I struggled mightily with the second (it literally bored me to sleep multiple times); I started but completely lost interest part way through the third book.
Did you read and fall in love with Bakker's works before you read Dune?
I agree that the depth and breadth of the books are not the same, but consider what you are reading. It is a sci-fi novel written in the 60's. Is Asimov's Foundation saga any 'worse' than Dune? You seem to be complaining about an overall lack of interest in the genre as a whole, and indeed Bakker is writing his series as a foil to these supposed genre staples. Liking Bakker barely qualifies a person as one who loves fantasy/scifi novels.
If you want deep philosophical writing there are many other places for you to go, and whining about how classic, widely appreciated genre staples arn't any good because they don't compare to a more modern example to your liking is like playing the Atari 2600 and complaining about how the graphics don't look as nice as MW3. Sure what you said may be true, but its missing the point (and is entirely off topic).
I appreciate the input but if that post turns this topic into a flame war rather than an actually discussion based loosely on my original post and the questions contained therein, I'd be rather disappointed.
I don't think Truth Shines intended that to be read as major criticism. In fact, it reads polite and toned down compared to what might have been written.
I, for one, am very interested in discussing comparisons of the two works and the ideas therein, Wilshire, however, I feel I couldn't possibly begin until you've finished at least up till God-Emperor without my analogies spoiling things for you.
Also, I agree that the works reflect their time and place. Asimov and Herbert are prime examples of what was the common style at the time. Limited descriptions, usually simply used to develop setting, and relying majorly on dialogue and introspection as means to further plot.
I was worried about that. Guess i'll come back later when I've finished it up, though that might take some time.
Good eye, OP. http://www.sfcrowsnest.com/articles/features/2005/R-Scott-Bakker-Interview-8186.php
"Do you have any particular favourite authors who have influenced your work?"
"Tolkien and Herbert are the two great wells from which The Prince of Nothing is drawn. When I first started writing, my mantra was to write something that would 'awe and intrigue.' Since I worked on it as a hobby for so long, however, it ended up growing into so much more - and owing so much more as a result. For years - decades - I found myself jotting down book-related titbits inspired by whatever I was reading at the time: history, the classics, Shakespeare, and lots of philosophy - especially Nietzsche, Heidegger, and Aristotle."
Thanks for posting that, Gwern :)
Edit: Actually this is even extra interesting - thanks alot?Quotethat which does not kill makes one stranger, not strongerOkay, interview date: 2005. Batman: The dark knight release 2008.
Is "Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stranger" actually a bit of a common phrase (a quick google doesn't seem to indicate that it is)? Perhaps in some circles? I hope so, or that's freaky...
Just finished the second book (messiah). Onto Children of Dune. I am very, very, glad that I dont have to wait an average of 6 years in between books like the poor fellows back when these books were first published.
I once made a picture with all of the influences I could detect in Bakker's work. It was huge. It can be largely be thought of as a mix between the Bible, Tolkien, Herbert and good dose of HR Giger just was extra kick. The philosophical influences are very numerous, but at its heart, the first trilogy is a celebration of skepticism and doubt.
guess that leaves me with Giger afterwards then
Well since im up through God Emperor and fumbling around with Chapterhouse I thought I'd bump this thread.
I just want to say, in rereading this thread - Jorge, you're really cool. I'd like to see that picture on day, if that is at all possible.
So Wilshire, I'm very interested in your thoughts - or anyone's, obviously - as I'm hugely interested in how Bakker could have come up with any prefix No- without reading Heretics and Chapterhouse. If he made it through the first four books then we have plenty of means of comparison.
I'm not going to pull quotes and whatnot ATM as I'm just getting off work and it's almost (now past in editing) three in the morning. But... food for thought:
What parallels can we pick from Dune specifically? I feel like the cliffhanger ending of Dune is primarily what might have inspired him - there are a number of powerful themes set up, that don't get fleshed out in the original novel.
Character parallels have been a pretty distinct for me. Moenghus the Elder is Paul. Paul doesn't see/doesn't accept his place in the symbiosis or Leto sees farther/accepts his Father's denied fate.
In Dune and Dune Messiah, Paul hovers at the edge of pure prescience until the stone burner goes off - it's only when he's finally blinded that he realizes the true extent of his oracular knowledge and acts in certainty.
So it made me think that Moenghus the Elder saw farther at the time of TTT. He's blinded and sees the only path. Which is something he explicitly tells Kellhus in their conversation.
In Children of Dune, everything leads up to Leto's transformation, his realization of the Golden Path, and confronting the Preacher who has been undermining his empire.
Something that probably needs quotables later but I very much read in Leto and the Preacher's conversation in the desert that Paul admits he saw the Golden Path and refused it, seeing Leto's later acceptance.
You suggested, I think, Wilshire, in The Heart thread in TWP forum, that when Kellhus' Circumfixion transpires, the Outside somehow "sandworms" him. So when Kellhus confronts Moenghus, "I am more," I think, Moenghus has actually seen farther in the Thought than has Kellhus.
As I think Bakker's pulled more random threads of characterization and plot from Dune rather than episodes like LOTR, I'd also suggest that this is why I think Meppa to be Moenghus - though a Neuropunctured Metapsukhari Cishaurim of Moenghus' sect would be the cooler thing ;). It's quite possible that Meppa will preach in Momemn to undermine Kellhus' empire which is under the stewardship of Esmenet, haunted by her past - as opposed to the Preacher in undermining Leto's empire under the stewardship of Alia, possessed by the Baron - after all, Cishaurim are Fanim priests.
I think that God-Emperor will reflect the majority of TUC themes - Kellhus is going to sacrifice himself to achieve the Shortest Path, Achamian and Mimara will be involved in that persecution and will be forced to continue the major struggle without Kellhus' guidance - he dissolves into the Outside to do work there o.O?
I always wonder at Siona's connection - after all, the No-Rooms, No-Ships, etc, etc, developed by the Ixian's reflect Siona's genetics being equally undetectable to prescience.
However, prescience in Earwa has two analogies - the perspective of the Warrior, the Gods, and the Outside or the perspective of the Dunyain. I got more as I just got the feeling Bakker drew from all six Frank books and mashed them all over TSA.
Get after me.
Quote from: Truth Shinesto Bakker's Second Apocalypse, Dune is an amateurish work. Granted Herbert had all these great ideas (the rise of a prophet who can see the future, face dancers, Bene Gesserit, etc.), but when you compare these to their counterpart in the Second Apocalypse, they appear woefully underdeveloped and poorly thought out. It's like comparing a few pieces of raw meat and uncooked vegetables with a sumptuous feast. And certainly there is no comparison when it comes to the philosophical depth between the two works
shoulders of giants. TSA is a basically a gloss on tolkien and herbert, with plenty of other lesser influences, arising out of the passage of many decades and the differential educations of the respective writers.
had written this over at westeros a while back:Quotenote that the narrative of [dune] part I might be described as follows, allowing an intermediate level of generality:
(click to show/hide)
we might also describe it this way, however:
(click to show/hide)
we might further describe it this way:(click to show/hide)
i've read those narratives in other books recently, so i think some fancypantsed loyar needs to send mr. herbert a cease and desist letter on behalf of these other stories.
So as I said in the OP, simply from Dune it would seem Kellhus was Paul. However after reading the other novels I can see why you would think of Moe instead.
I've not thought of that until now, but on the surface your theory seems to make sense. The blindness, the disbandment, being a heretic in his own empire. Perhaps Moe actually wandered off into the wasted North after he came back and delivered his news, rather than being exiled like the Dunyain claim, giving us another parallel.
Im typing this as I think it, so it might be that half way down I will change my mind, but lets see were it takes us. The main issue I have with Moe being Paul is that Moe is not the prodigy. He is not the one to deliver the Dunyain from their mundane bonds and catupult them into the realm of the Absolute. There are so many obvious distinction that make him parralel Paul closely, but there is some break-down... or rather he is more of a combination of themes than simply one character.
Moe is also kind of a combination of Paul and Jessica. Denying your order, choosing another over your own tribe. Jessica trained and lead Paul to what he became, more or less. Sure she didn't know where exactly he would end up, but she trained him to be a mentat and a male with all the bene gesserit training. Moe fathers Kell in a similar way. He conditioned the grounds for Kell to walk on. He showed Kell the way to TTT, though he didn't know what would happen when he grasped it. He also probably thought Paul would bring balance to the force not destroy it, erm I mean bring more stability to TTT and help his father complete his goal rather than take it and warp it beyond recognition.
So Paul saw the golden path but made the conscious decision not to follow it. Did Moe do this?
Well, more importantly might be the reasons for Paul's actions. Why not choose the path that would forever lead humans to a better place? Why not save everyone, for eternity?
Leto believes its because he could not justify the worm transformation in order to make this path possible. That losing his humanity, becoming a different species, was too much for him to bare. Paul wanted to save his subjects, as any Atreides would, from death and suffering. And yet, he chose to ignore the Golden Path, so damning everyone.
Or, was it that the end did not justify the means? Paul saw the great war, another Jihad, that was too terrible. He spent his time alive trying to find a path to the future that did not cross this inevitability.
Was this Moe's intention? Did he see the golden path, the shortest path, through the nexus of events( the Nexus being TTT rather than the path), but choose to find another, less bloody, more difficult way through? Did he know that he would likely fail, but that he must try regardless? Is his idea of the future, the one that delivers Earwa to the Inchoroi, truly the lesser of two evils, or was it just one evil over another?
Not that I disagree entirely with your theory, Madness, but just that it is incomplete. Like you mentioned, there is a mashing together of themes and while a lot of Moe can be seen in Paul, I believe so too can a lot of Paul be seen there too.
In my OP, I mentioned that Kellhus is the Kwisatz Haderach (or Paul). Not, I suppose, in the sense that he has the genetic ability to see more than other Dunyain, but mostly that he is the prodigal son of the Dunyain, their penultimate achievement.
I dont think that Moe fits this motif very well. For one, Moe was sent out, but he was presumably fully 'controlled' by the Dunyain. He had, more or less, completed the training. He drank the punch. Kellhus, however, is kind of like Paul in that he is outside the Dunyain. The begrudgingly sent him out to his father, even though they would have wanted to keep and train him. Outside of their sphere of influence at a young age (I hope he was younger than Moe when he was sent out), he decided on a path of his own, damning the Dunyain and their practices. Sure Moe did this too, but I feel the link is stronger with Kell.
But then Kell is distinctly like Leto in the ways you said, and I like that portion of your conclusion. I think its highly possible that Kell took the path his father would not, and it may likely have something to do with losing his humanity. Perhaps he will become the No-God like some have suggested, however I don't know how he would plan to save everyone like Leto's worm did, but that remains to be seen. What we do know if that Father and Son choose different paths out of TTT, and yet both thought that theirs was the only way to truly save humanity.
BTW the idea of the outside sandworm-ing Kell was lockesnow, not I. Is Kell in a skin that is not his own? Thus the heart, the halos, the metagnosis.QuoteSo it made me think that Moenghus the Elder saw farther at the time of TTT. He's blinded and sees the only path. Which is something he explicitly tells Kellhus in their conversation.But didn't Paul follow the only path? Then Leto comes along with another 'only path'. 'Only' here does not mean there are no other choices, but rather that no other choices are as good as the one each has chosen, which is largely subjective.
Farther? If we are standing back to back, and we each see to the horizon, who sees farther? If you ask someone which one of use sees farther, what would they say? Without context, it would seem we can each see to the same distance, more or less, so perhaps the poor guy you asked would say we see the same. But its more complicated than this, since 'farther' in our case, depends on where you think we should be going.
Moe perhaps sees farther along his chosen path, but Kell likely sees farther down his. They both know, in general, what will happen along both lines of causality and circumstance, but as the variables become more complex and more numerous, there might just not be enough time to compute all possibilities for all paths.
Then again this breaks down when you consider that Moe has had much more time to consider TTT and the paths out of it. It would be more likely that Time is a bigger factor in this equation. With so much more time Moe should have a greater understanding of where the paths through TTT lead, at least compared to Kell who basically picked the path me liked the most and ignored the other possibilities.
Though all that is mostly off topic.
The real questions would be if the blinding gave him sight. With Paul, when he became blind he no longer saw the now. Rather, he could only see his visions. His vision became the present and future. But what if Paul did not go to the dessert, and Leto was raised under Paul's tutelage. Eventually Leto would have chosen the Golden Path, and Paul's reality, his 'pure prescience', would have broken down. He would have become blind in the metaphysical as he was already blinded physically. Who sees farther then?
Did Moe see farther until Kell came and shut out his future? Moe's only path suddenly becomes a dead end, a no-path maybe :P.
I agree that TUC will have a lot of similarities with God Emperor. The Preacher, the sacrifise, the collapse of the fathers regime under the son's hand. Perhaps Kelmomas is Leto though with the Atreides, I mean Anasorimbor, family compassion stripped away making him much more 'evil'.
Which incarnation of prescience from TSA would Dune fall under? The prescient of Leto and others is more like the Gods/Outside/WLW. This, because the Dune prescience is more of a Gift, something that just happens, rather than a cold and calculated future of possibilities. It doesn't matter that much though, since the amount to about the same thing.
Rushing off to work here. Firstly, thanks solo for getting in on this and Wilshire for correcting my misquote.
Just wanted to add one main pertinant thought of many to your post, Wilshire.
Paul was Kellhus for me too... up until the blinding and the fact that Leto just gets it all so much quicker than Moenghus, mostly due to the prebirth metaconsciousness a la Alia. Then Leto the II became the undeniable comparison - it keeps stacking up. God-Emperor, Aspect-Emperor.
Then I quickly saw reasons I previously ignored to the idea that Paul is Moenghus rather than Kellhus.
Certainly bias on my part.
Also, remember when Paul first experiences the blindness, he is at first worried that the visions won't match reality. The accumulation of their invariance is what welds him to his path... I think us using the word choice is probably misleading.
i've said it before:
on dune, the golden path is the means to some uncertain end for the shortening of the way.
on earwa, the shortest path is the means to some uncertain end for what volume VI will reveal as the goldening of the way.
QuoteIm typing this as I think it, so it might be that half way down I will change my mind, but lets see were it takes us. The main issue I have with Moe being Paul is that Moe is not the prodigy. He is not the one to deliver the Dunyain from their mundane bonds and catupult them into the realm of the Absolute. There are so many obvious distinction that make him parralel Paul closely, but there is some break-down... or rather he is more of a combination of themes than simply one character.
To me, the issue is the fact that Paul is not Leto II. Leto II just seems to fictionally overshadow Paul in the way that Kellhus overshadows Moenghus the Elder. Paul incubates a long-term vision of the future unfolding of circumstance but Leto executes it.
I understand Paul is named Kwisatz Haderach. I think I could make a pretty good argument as to why the Bene Gesserit may have jumped the gun and assumed because Paul satisfied some of the variables - the gender thing, primarily. If we look at Paul's choices and the adherence to his visions following the overthrow of the Sardaukar on Arrakis, then certainly he is the fulcrum in time where the future begins to collapse on the inevitable.
Without Leto II, most of the it never actually comes to pass.QuoteMoe is also kind of a combination of Paul and Jessica. Denying your order, choosing another over your own tribe. Jessica trained and lead Paul to what he became, more or less. Sure she didn't know where exactly he would end up, but she trained him to be a mentat and a male with all the bene gesserit training. Moe fathers Kell in a similar way. He conditioned the grounds for Kell to walk on. He showed Kell the way to TTT, though he didn't know what would happen when he grasped it. He also probably thought Paul would bring balance to the force not destroy it, erm I mean bring more stability to TTT and help his father complete his goal rather than take it and warp it beyond recognition.
Just thinking aloud, bear with me.
I think you might be doing the extracurricular stretching here. Does Moenghus condition Kellhus ground like a parent or an oracle, say, John the Baptist?QuoteSo Paul saw the golden path but made the conscious decision not to follow it. Did Moe do this?
No, but I'm not necessarily trying to use these parallels to prove any certain idea, just seeing if any of our combinations fit Bakker's narrative and offer us new insight.
Leto II and Ghanima spend most of Children wondering, if Paul is the Preacher, what actually drove him to the desert? I can almost hear Leto II saying... this is where the thought failed you.
Except it's not. Paul's visions encompass his single deviant choice - the Fremen would have excepted his leadership after Messiah, as his visions accounted for his blindness - and he sees his path beyond that point where prescience supposedly failed him, according to... everyone, basically, in the novels.QuoteWell, more importantly might be the reasons for Paul's actions. Why not choose the path that would forever lead humans to a better place? Why not save everyone, for eternity?
Leto believes its because he could not justify the worm transformation in order to make this path possible. That losing his humanity, becoming a different species, was too much for him to bare. Paul wanted to save his subjects, as any Atreides would, from death and suffering. And yet, he chose to ignore the Golden Path, so damning everyone.
Or, was it that the end did not justify the means? Paul saw the great war, another Jihad, that was too terrible. He spent his time alive trying to find a path to the future that did not cross this inevitability.
Perhaps, prescience does fail Paul for a time, though I'd argue otherwise - this is getting interesting, probably going to have to pull the books out soon. Remember, Leto II allows for suffering well beyond the next Fremen jihad in order to see the Golden Path through.QuoteWas this Moe's intention? Did he see the golden path, the shortest path, through the nexus of events( the Nexus being TTT rather than the path), but choose to find another, less bloody, more difficult way through? Did he know that he would likely fail, but that he must try regardless? Is his idea of the future, the one that delivers Earwa to the Inchoroi, truly the lesser of two evils, or was it just one evil over another?
I'm not sure the parallels are played out. One of my many considerations, leaning heavily on these analogies, obviously, is that The Unholy Consult will see another anti/climatic conversation, this time between Kellhus and Meppa.QuoteNot that I disagree entirely with your theory, Madness, but just that it is incomplete. Like you mentioned, there is a mashing together of themes and while a lot of Moe can be seen in Paul, I believe so too can a lot of Paul be seen there too.
No worries, Wilshire, I'm all over the place.QuoteIn my OP, I mentioned that Kellhus is the Kwisatz Haderach (or Paul). Not, I suppose, in the sense that he has the genetic ability to see more than other Dunyain, but mostly that he is the prodigal son of the Dunyain, their penultimate achievement.
I dont think that Moe fits this motif very well. For one, Moe was sent out, but he was presumably fully 'controlled' by the Dunyain. He had, more or less, completed the training. He drank the punch. Kellhus, however, is kind of like Paul in that he is outside the Dunyain. The begrudgingly sent him out to his father, even though they would have wanted to keep and train him. Outside of their sphere of influence at a young age (I hope he was younger than Moe when he was sent out), he decided on a path of his own, damning the Dunyain and their practices. Sure Moe did this too, but I feel the link is stronger with Kell.
Interesting thoughts. I'd argue that the encountering the World outside of Ishual is enough to make any Dunyain more than their brethren - they become instant Players/Names in Earwa. I think alot of these analogies, if they exist, have yet to play out, as I wrote. For instance, this becomes a whole lot more valid, if Moenghus did know more of the unfolding of the Thousandfold Thought than Kellhus.QuoteBut then Kell is distinctly like Leto in the ways you said, and I like that portion of your conclusion. I think its highly possible that Kell took the path his father would not, and it may likely have something to do with losing his humanity. Perhaps he will become the No-God like some have suggested, however I don't know how he would plan to save everyone like Leto's worm did, but that remains to be seen. What we do know if that Father and Son choose different paths out of TTT, and yet both thought that theirs was the only way to truly save humanity.
BTW the idea of the outside sandworm-ing Kell was lockesnow, not I. Is Kell in a skin that is not his own? Thus the heart, the halos, the metagnosis.
I'd suggest that you both have viable analogies to the Leto's "sandworming." We could distill that to something like "symbiosis?"QuoteBut didn't Paul follow the only path? Then Leto comes along with another 'only path'. 'Only' here does not mean there are no other choices, but rather that no other choices are as good as the one each has chosen, which is largely subjective.
"'I was the Shortest Path.'
'No. You were the only path'" (TTT, p439).QuoteMoe perhaps sees farther along his chosen path, but Kell likely sees farther down his. They both know, in general, what will happen along both lines of causality and circumstance, but as the variables become more complex and more numerous, there might just not be enough time to compute all possibilities for all paths.
Then again this breaks down when you consider that Moe has had much more time to consider TTT and the paths out of it. It would be more likely that Time is a bigger factor in this equation. With so much more time Moe should have a greater understanding of where the paths through TTT lead, at least compared to Kell who basically picked the path me liked the most and ignored the other possibilities.
Though all that is mostly off topic.
Actually, most of these thoughts are direct inspiration for my making these ulterior analogies in the first place.
Let's try another suggestion for the Thousandfold Thought. If the Probability Trance is the most likely statistical outcome given any number of variables, then the futures that the Dunyain see eventually collapse, rather than unfold. By that consideration, there is truly only one future. One need only know the "most objective circumstance," the "truest truth," and then act accordingly. Think of it like Unified Theory and forgive my terrible communication.
In light of this, the Thousandfold Thought is likely a sudden, inevitable emergence, the collapse of probabilities (probably ;)) into a equal or greater number of certainties.
Moenghus had a solid twentyish years exploring the Probability Trance and conditions the ground for Kellhus so that he doesn't have to spend that time realizing the Thought on his own.
As does Paul make fertile the ground for Leto II - but I think I'm just rapping here too.QuoteThe real questions would be if the blinding gave him sight. With Paul, when he became blind he no longer saw the now. Rather, he could only see his visions. His vision became the present and future. But what if Paul did not go to the dessert, and Leto was raised under Paul's tutelage. Eventually Leto would have chosen the Golden Path, and Paul's reality, his 'pure prescience', would have broken down. He would have become blind in the metaphysical as he was already blinded physically. Who sees farther then?
Isn't it that now matches his visions exactly? Excepting in the single instance, where the visions intend do fail Paul - only because of his initial inability to trust them as truth - and Leto II gets him over the oracular hump.QuoteI agree that TUC will have a lot of similarities with God Emperor. The Preacher, the sacrifise, the collapse of the fathers regime under the son's hand. Perhaps Kelmomas is Leto though with the Atreides, I mean Anasorimbor, family compassion stripped away making him much more 'evil'.
I was thinking about this as a possible idea you'd bring back - Lol... completely true and equally freaky.QuoteWhich incarnation of prescience from TSA would Dune fall under? The prescient of Leto and others is more like the Gods/Outside/WLW. This, because the Dune prescience is more of a Gift, something that just happens, rather than a cold and calculated future of possibilities. It doesn't matter that much though, since the amount to about the same thing.
+1, sir.
Slinging thoughts, oh yeah.
Also, quick thought before work in rereading part of your post. I think, that perhaps, you made a third analogy above - prescience is like the Dreams, prophecy in Dune reflecting the mundane circumstances of the Oracle, rather than the miraculous, further "reveals" according to physical status.
Quote from: JorgeI once made a picture with all of the influences I could detect in Bakker's work. It was huge. It can be largely be thought of as a mix between the Bible, Tolkien, Herbert and good dose of HR Giger just was extra kick. The philosophical influences are very numerous, but at its heart, the first trilogy is a celebration of skepticism and doubt.
Any chance you still have that map laying around somewhere. I'd even see if I couldn't make it into an electronic, editable version ( using mind42.com ), if you could dig it up.
Oh look there is me talking about the mindmap. Oops, guess I should stop asking Jorge to find it :P ive done so in a few threads now.
I'm not done with you Madness, I swear. I've just not had the time to give your post justice until recently.
One small tidbit though.
page 241 WLW, Psatma Nannaferi, Mother-Supreme.
"The Goddess waits, Snakehead, and you are but a mote before her patience!"
Bakker used the word mote to describe Meppa in front of a Woman goddess. I find this peculiar, because that specific word was used many, many times when talking about the Bene Gesserit and their far flung knowledge. The first time when Jessica goes through the water-agony with her unborn children.
Why mote? Must have been on purpose.
Also, cmon, mother-supreme? :P. Get your own titles Bakker, Frank covered all the mother-whatevers in his series... :)
Quote from: MadnessQuoteMoenghus had a solid twentyish years exploring the Probability Trance and conditions the ground for Kellhus so that he doesn't have to spend that time realizing the Thought on his own.
As does Paul make fertile the ground for Leto II
I thought the same thing. Dune &c are a bit foggy so I don't know if this really works, depends on how Paul talks before he dies. Paul is contained within the God Emperor, who begins in a discrete sense when the first mind grasps enough of the future to see its vast shape. There is very little difference between a Paul that is prescient beyond Leto II's death and the God Emperor himself, he is the Kwisatz Haderach.(should I add that to my dictionary, banish the wormy red lines? Is this one of those subtly important decisions that will impact my life in various unforeseen episodes?)
Mapping characters to each other directly doesn't work for me explicatively. But! But it does provide different angles into each fiction. World. Thing.
Is Kellhus's impending doom Just Part of The Plan™?
Will all the shortsighted adults ever see that sweet Kelmomas was just undergoing an early sort of Dunyain puberty? That he really didn't mean that. He's really sorry and seems sincere.
I can't make comparisons without seeing the differences. The most nagging one to me right now is structural. Kellhus, the center of events in the first trilogy. Kellhus, the godling who's coming of age we saw through his own eyes. Kellhus... has disappeared. He only exists through the eyes of others.
Is the reader as blind to him as the Gods are to the No-God?Quotebut I think I'm just rapping here too.
Cheers, GS. I can't help but laugh as I hear your phoneme.
I'm definitely foggy right now, living on bout no sleep but you strike some interesting thoughts. Providing different angles allow for us to grasp at the God, after all.
Is Kelmomas Leto? Is Kellhus' fading an inversion of KH's emersion?
Like your rhymes.
Regarding The Thousandfold Thought and and Leto's Golden Path:
This was debated a bit in the TTT thread elsewhere but I felt it would fit better here.
Here goes.
There is a fundamental difference in the Dunyain probability trance (PT) and the Dune prescience (DP). This distinction becomes important for my later theory so lets straighten it out first. Although the outcome is more or less the same, the PT is more like a mathematical summation of probabilities while DP is more like a polaroid snapshot of the future (and they only get one shot). In the short term, these two are basically the same. Short term, btw, is extremely relative here considering that Dune is like 10k+ years while TSA is only a century or two (thats all that matters in this discussion at least).
So the short term for Dune could range from a guild navigators journey through space, to the upper limit of Paul Atreides prescience (maybe 100 years).
Short term of TSA is pretty much any use of the probability trance that doesn't lead too/through TTT.
The analogy of PT and DP starts to break after that short term limit is approached. The issue is that the PT is more of a continuous process, measurement unceasing, opposed to the DP which is stagnant. In Dune the prescience user is locked into their vision of the future. They do not possess the ability to change what they have seen (though this is more of a metaphysical limitation, they oracles also would likely not have the mental capacity to do what the Dunyain can even if it were possible).
In the short term, this isn't really much of an issue. The Dunyain evaluate each data point used in the PT, but this doesn't effect short term goals. It is the piling of chance and mischance that cause deviations from vision of the future. While the Dunyain are able to see and correct this, once the oracle's of Dune see the future they are locked into that future.
So then when a major leap is made to try and see the future in Dune, as we have seen, several things can happen. First of all, the visions inevitably start to deviate. Because they only get the on vision of their future, they either go through blind, or try and force events to occur that will allow, or not allow, that vision to come true.
I believe that Leto knew of this problem, mainly from his study of Paul. He did several things to ensure the his golden path survived through the ages that Paul failed to do, allowing for an outcome that was, again, very similar to TTT but still different on a fundamental level.
He began by avoiding the limits of the DP by keeping his prediction small (at least to begin with). Instead of taking one big snapshot of the future, he took lots of small ones. I'd say glimpses into the future the length of each Duncan Idaho's life as he was re-created.
Duncan becoming extremely important in this plot. In order to maintain the monopoly of prescient power, that ensures the continuation of his golden path, Leto needed to "out predict" all other oracles. Why? Because as seen by Paul's downfall, he who sees farther is (in most cases) more correct. There doesn't seem to be room for more than one or two actual futures in Dune, so the most powerful oracle kind of takes on the role of ruler.
To ensure that most other predictions or futuresights would inevitably fail Leto did something rather clever. My theory: he used Duncan as his focus. Without him none of it would have been possible. By creating a ghola that lived through the ages Leto was able to have an important anchor in all of his visions. When he combined this with the no-nouns/people that he intentionally developed, Leto effectively made himself the only one able to see the true outcome of events in the far far future. All those Siona genes would mess up most far seeing futures without a proper reference that could be traced. Because Idaho was one of the only ones guaranteed to not be effected by these genes Leto had quite the monopoly. But I kind of digressed...
So PT is like an integral to the DP limit of some finite number of inputs. Although Leto did a lot of work to secure his GP and managed to squeeze out an outcome that would have been similar to TTT. To continue with the math analogy, Leto's prescience was a limit of a huge number of variables, and although not perfect compared to an integral, it was pretty damn close.
TL;DR version.
Dune prescience and the Dunyain probability trance are fundementally very different, but Leto's Golden Path and The Thousandfold Thought end up being about the same thing.
Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2006Inspiration-wise, the correspondances are certainly not one to one the way you line them up, Grallon. Kellhus, for instance, actually owes very little to Paul Atriedes, though the skin-spies are obvious rip-offs of Herbert's face-dancers. The Scylvendi owe nothing to the Huns, but quite abit to the Scythians and Sarmatians. I see Shigek as decidedly more Egyptian than Mesopotamian. And the Inchoroi owe nothing to the Tleilaxu.Quote from: Rider, 2005Was The God Emperor of Dune an inspiration in any way Scott?Quote from: Cu'jara CinmoiHuge, Rider - though I didn't particularly like any of the books following Dune. They literally changed my life.
Quote from: MadnessThe Scylvendi owe nothing to the Huns, but quite abit to the Scythians and Sarmatians.He might have intended this to be the case, but the Scylvendi as he actually portrays them in the books are much closer to Huns (and other historical Turkic steppe tribes) than they are to Scythians and Sarmatians (and other historical Aryan steppe tribes).
I'll admit that the name 'Scylvendi' sounds vaguely Indo-European, though.
Not gonna read this thread too much right now due to spoilers, but I just started Dune yesterday (basically for the first time...I tried it once back when I was like 12 and couldn't get into it). Really enjoying it now though. Actually the whole reason I started it was because I just finished my reread of TSA and I wanted something kinda, sorta similar, and short of reading Lord of the Rings or the Bible, Dune seemed like the natural place to go.
I think the Duncan/Akka comparison is much stronger than Siona/Mimara. Siona was related to Duncan and was bred specifically to end Letto II's reign. She also had a power that made her immune prescience. Unless Mimara is Akka's daughter (i really hope not) and TJE somehow destroys Kellhus's ability to see her in his thousandfold thought, then I don't see it.
Too soon to tell. More information needed.
I can't contain this one - FB, earmuffs:(click to show/hide)
To be fair, has anyone read the Herbert/Anderson attempt at the final book?
The density of this book, both of unfamiliar terms and philosophy, sociology, and political intrigue, can be off putting, but I highly recommend working through it. On the first page alone there are at least ten terms or names which are from Herbert’s created universe, and the second page has quite a few more, but the long haul is worth it.
The Solitary God created Earwa to train the faithful.One cannot go against the word of god.
Greatness is a transitory experience. It is never persistent. It depends in part upon the myth-making imagination of humankind. The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in. He must reflect what is projected upon him. And he must have a strong sense of the sardonic. This is what uncouples him from belief in his own pretensions. The sardonic is all that permits him to move within himself. Without this quality, even occasional greatness will destroy a man.
There's a lot of wiggle room for moe, but it's simpler to just assume he's gone.
there's the question of whether the Serwe that leaps for Kellhus is Serwe from the Outside or the-thing-called-serwe. That's a pet theory of mine I haven't really outlined.
Kellhus toppled into something when he cast his spell and rent the inward, after that moment his POV is excised from the narrative, and the next time we see him it's with descriptions akin to the no-god (whirlwind etc).
Moenghus sought out Cnaiur for his strength before being touched by the chorae
unlike all the other deaths by chorae we've seen, Moe is not inhumed more-or-less instantly, he sticks around.
blackness engulfed Cnaiur at the end.
Kellhus stumbled on a rock/skull on the way to the final encounter, so he's more fallible than usual.
Moe's three snakes come to him after he's stabbed.
Moenghus has the Skinspies suspended over a pit and has chosen this location, deep underground, next to an even deeper bottomless pit as the ideal location to confront kellhus. Pits have an inordinate importance in the second trilogy and seem to facilitate movement between the inward and outward. In the preview chapter of TUC, Shauriatus suspends his circle of amputees over a pit so there is metaphysical importance to them for certain, particularly in regards to survival (if a pit occluds the sight of gods, perhaps it also occulds the ability of a chorae to assert reality, note that chorae was more or less useless at the GATES of the the Great Medial Screw, at the bottom of a giant pit until Mimara transfigured it. Perhaps Moenghus has found a loop-hole--literally, a loop and a hole. It's also worth mentioning that the synthese can find any skin spy, but all their skin spies have disappeared in Kianene, Moe probably figured out that they couldn't be located when suspended over a pit. Also, Shauriatus has illustrated the ability to self move his soul through a circuit of other bodies, so a soul can be transported from one body to another, at least in the presence of a pit.
Meppa as Moenghus' father is an interesting idea. I'd be way more satisfied with that explanation than having Moe come back in any way. A special dunyain for every generation also fits, though wouldn't Meppa need to be much older if that was the case? I doubt he would have aged gracefully in the desert.White hair.
Foundation/Second Foundation crackpot, the Dunyain are actually 2 sects developed to maximize the extreme ends of sorcery, Intellect and Emotion. None but the highest up know that there is no-Dunyain sect running around. Meppa is the strongest of the emotion side, Kellhus the intellect. Kellhus was supposed to be female and breed with the Meppa stock and become the kwisatz haderach. He's one generation early....
Meppa as Moenghus' father is an interesting idea. I'd be way more satisfied with that explanation than having Moe come back in any way. A special dunyain for every generation also fits, though wouldn't Meppa need to be much older if that was the case? I doubt he would have aged gracefully in the desert.
Foundation/Second Foundation crackpot, the Dunyain are actually 2 sects developed to maximize the extreme ends of sorcery, Intellect and Emotion. None but the highest up know that there is no-Dunyain sect running around. Meppa is the strongest of the emotion side, Kellhus the intellect. Kellhus was supposed to be female and breed with the Meppa stock and become the kwisatz haderach. He's one generation early....
A thing that struck me about God Emperor was the ghola of Duncan Idaho, his constant whining throughout the book really annoyed me. By the end I really couldn't stand him as a character, and the main reason he helped Siona assassinate Leto, and on his wedding day no less was not for some high minded purpose like freedom or other, but because Hwi Noree would not leave Leto for him. And then to top it off he savagely kills Nayla for following his orders when it led to Hwi's death, because he did not know that Hwi was in the royal cart with Leto. This sounds suspiciously like a character from Earwa, Achamian leaves the service of Kellhus and becomes a hermit for two decades because he lost Esmenet. And Kellhus says that he will kneel before him at the end, if Akka actually succeeds in getting to Kellhus there might be a confrontation.
The Tleilaxu were masters of new science and technological advancement. I can't decide if the Dunyain would fall into that category (aside from the tanks of course, and the mysterious absence of dunyain women).
Inchoroi with their womb-Ark and other Tekne artifacts seem a better candidate for both Tleilaxu and Ix. Mentats and Bene Gesserit are better mapped onto the Dunyain.
Well, Bakker has been quoted up-thread as saying that the Inchoroi owe nothing to the Tleilaxu. But I guess you can disagree with that.Haha, that is a real shame. I really want to disagree :P.
QuoteInchoroi with their womb-Ark and other Tekne artifacts seem a better candidate for both Tleilaxu and Ix. Mentats and Bene Gesserit are better mapped onto the Dunyain.
Well, Bakker has been quoted up-thread as saying that the Inchoroi owe nothing to the Tleilaxu. But I guess you can disagree with that.
Possible Dune reference:
The Guild Navigators "fold space" in order to briefly associate two points in space as identical, thus permitting instantaneous movement across interstellar distances. If you read the first scene in which Kellhus translocates, in TTT right after his chat with Papa Moe, it says that Kellhus "sang a cant in three voices." I think this is a concept of travel akin to that the Navigators use because of the explicit mention of three voices: one to describe the starting point in terms of the onta, another to describe the destination, and the third to momentarily join them so the cantor can move instantly.
This is all extreme supposition of course.
Oh man, how exciting for you, H. I listened to Dune audiobooks, whoever did it was a cast of people, and they did a good job. Shades of Dune all over TSA for sure.
Oh man, how exciting for you, H. I listened to Dune audiobooks, whoever did it was a cast of people, and they did a good job. Shades of Dune all over TSA for sure.
I finally convinced one of my friends to try The Prince of Nothing with this statement: "It's about a mentat-prince who is the product of thousands of years of selective breeding to produce the Kwisatz Haderach who gets involved in a holy war in the desert."
I just finished the third book (Children of Dune) I felt I kind of lost interest by now because I don't really connect with any of the characters and the motives behind Letos actions completely elude me. Dunno, I feel like 'the hassle' involved in reading and understanding complex books isn't compensated for in the Dune books by having an amazing story (and other qualities) that Bakker's works have. It also might be that I don't really like Sci-Fi. It just feels kind of cheesy. I did some readings on wikipedia and apparently Leto turns into a sandworm (say whaaat). Is it worth to keep on reading when I really lost interest reading the third book? I feel like such a pessimist hahaIf you are going to read it through to the end, then I'd say read God Emperor is worth it. If you are pretty much disinterested at this point, I don't know if its worth you continuing reading.
Thanks for the input everryone! Right now im re-reading bits and pieces of the second apocalypse to keep myself occupied until july. We'll see how long that lasts and then I guess I might pick up on the books again. It feels kind of bad to stop in the middle of the seriesNah, don't feel bad. My rule is to give a series 1 book. Granted, that's largely because I was a bit shaky on TSA through about 3/4 of TDTCB, but whatever. A book should capture you, imo. In a series, it should be every book If you don't like it, don't keep reading the series.
Well said - I was 200 pages into American Gods and just quit, wasn't my thing, quite boring with no mystery for me ( which is odd since I liked The Sandman comics so much ).
Well said - I was 200 pages into American Gods and just quit, wasn't my thing, quite boring with no mystery for me ( which is odd since I liked The Sandman comics so much ).
Well said - I was 200 pages into American Gods and just quit, wasn't my thing, quite boring with no mystery for me ( which is odd since I liked The Sandman comics so much ).
Yeah, I found American Gods quite boring and forgettable. I read the whole thing, but damned if I can recall more than the slightest bit.
I felt the same way about Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell, which was a fantastic book style-wise but horrendous to me plot-wise.
I actually liked the book,, as its fresh in my mind. Gaiman isn't knocking my socks off with the prose or anything. But, its a decent enough story. As I just read it, the series makes plenty of sense and they're following the book pretty closely.